Dual wielding for Rangers

[Scrape]

I like the idea of Rangers being the dual-wielding specialists, but currently, I don't see that really happening. Maybe I'm wrong; if so, please correct me.

Here's the core of my problem: The only benefit to the Two-Weapon path is that you can take the Feats even if you don't otherwise qualify. What this boils down to is their Dexterity requirements. But Rangers wear medium armor and use bows regularly (even the dual wielders), so they tend to have a high Dex as a result of that. And that means that disabling the Dex requirements is a little underwhelming.

Every Ranger I have GM'd for, played, or played with has had a high Dexterity as a matter of course. Can anything be done to make Rangers the true "Dual-Wielding Specialists" that they claim to be? Or am I missing something?

[lastknightleft]

Well the second benefit is that they get those feats as bonus feats instead of having to wait to take them, like any other class (excluding the fighter) would. Basically it's not that they are the ultimate masters, just that they have it for "free".

Whether you think that is enough is just a matter of opinion.

But I would say that a ranger planning to take two weapon fighter should actually ignore dex (other than for AC but there are ways around that) and focus more on strength which normal people who go two weapon fighting can't afford to do.

[Diego Bastet]

I agree with my friend above me.

The ranger is not actually to be the dual blades master. Well, just look at the archer ranger, and you can see he is not a master archer.. it's more like a bump on your feats.

Besides, exept for movie's Aragorn using his sword and torch, or The Famous Good Drow Ranger with a Son or Daughter in every gaming groups (don't ask me to spell that name), I don't see rangers as dual fighters much... But opinions are opinions.

[Quandary]

Like mentioned, the Ranger's getting these Feats for free...

It's true that the Ranged Path is unique because you're getting to skip Point Blank Shot, which isn't so great, while 2WF doesn't have an introductory "weak Feat" to waste... But then again, 2WF is great as-is, why complain? Like Diego pointed out, although DEX is always nice, a 2WF Ranger doesn't need it, and so (in Point Buy scenarios, certainly) can be much stronger than otherwise - doing more damage, and also making Weapon Finesse un-needed (which a low STR/high DEX character would otherwise want) - which matches the value of the "skipped" Point Blank Shot.

I do think the Armor restriction could be changed, to only apply to MEDIUM armor - So Hide-Armor won't cut off their entire Combat Style. It DOES enforce the Medium Armor Proficiency, so spending a Feat for Heavy Armor Proficiency WOULD still interfere with the Combat Style...

[Scrape]

I understand what you're all saying, but I think that my problem is actually that Rangers aren't masters of their chosen fighting styles. The way I see it, if you're choosing between two main focuses for your character, shouldn't she be mastering them? Isn't that the point?

I just feel like character classes should be specialized exemplars of their territory- you want to disable complex traps and attack from hiding? Sure, anyone can put ranks in Disable and anyone can get a flanking bonus, but what you really want is a Rogue. You want a brute who attacks with sheer force? Sure, Fighters can take Power Attack and all that, but they simply can't replace Rage.

I want to dual-wield. And I want a class that is focused on it. Considering that there is an entire branch of the Ranger class devoted to 2WF, shouldn't they be the best at it?

[Quandary]

Well, here's my view:
A Ranger only gets 5-6 fewer Feats than a Fighter, and they get to ignore Feat & Stat requirements for their chosen Style, while every aspect of a Fighter must be developed towards their Feat choices (i.e Greater 2WF, very high DEX, meaning neglecting other Stats) That effectively means a 2WF Ranger can be Stronger than a 2WF Fighter, thus hitting harder with all their strikes. Sounds like they're better 2WF to me.

The thing is, I really don't think Rangers need to be "hands down" better than Fighters who also specialize in 2WF/ Ranged Combat. Nothing in the class write-up indicates that they are intended to / should be. They NEVER have been particularly better than Fighters at 2WF/ Ranged Combat, in any Edition I'm aware of. The point of the Combat Paths is not to be "hands down" the best 2WF/Ranged class, it's to be one kind of Ranger or another.

Given their skills, saves, spell casting & high level abilities (Hide in Plain Sight, Quarry/Imp. Quarry, Master Hunter Save-or-Die), and Favored Enemies, they definitely hold their own. They are a hybrid class, not an all-combat class. They'res no reason a 2WF/ Ranged focused Fighter should be discouraged, even with one or 2 Ranger levels to gain the Class Skills or "skip" Point Blank Shot, if you really want... But being a Ranger should not be REQUIRED to be "the best" 2WF/ Ranged combatant.

/shrug