Okay I know this isn't really the thread or the place for it but since we are already discussing it. Why not in regards to assassin spells do what they did with familiars, Animal companions and paladin mounts? Pretty much give you the option of taking the spellcasting option but if you decide not to you get other abilities instead?
This is an idea I could get behind. It would allow for the completely mundane assasssins some folk seem to be buying for whilst still allowing for the mage-hunting assassin option.
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Okay I know this isn't really the thread or the place for it but since we are already discussing it. Why not in regards to assassin spells do what they did with familiars, Animal companions and paladin mounts? Pretty much give you the option of taking the spellcasting option but if you decide not to you get other abilities instead?This is an idea I could get behind. It would allow for the completely mundane assasssins some folk seem to be buying for whilst still allowing for the mage-hunting assassin option.
Eh, i could live with this. Let the kids have their ninjas (as long as they stay off my lawn...)
;)
Eh, i could live with this. Let the kids have their ninjas (as long as they stay off my lawn...)
Take the monk class, ditch the Lawful alignment requirement, and let 'em take sneak attack as a feat (+1d6 per time it's selected). Done. You have a ninja.
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Eh, i could live with this. Let the kids have their ninjas (as long as they stay off my lawn...)Take the monk class, ditch the Lawful alignment requirement, and let 'em take sneak attack as a feat (+1d6 per time it's selected). Done. You have a ninja.
Wow, looks like you've actually read the PHB!
The secret word is "footpaddin'".
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Eh, i could live with this. Let the kids have their ninjas (as long as they stay off my lawn...)Take the monk class, ditch the Lawful alignment requirement, and let 'em take sneak attack as a feat (+1d6 per time it's selected). Done. You have a ninja.
I was kinda refering to the "mystic ninjas" of legend, you know, "magically walk through walls, cloak themselves in silks made of night, disappear in a puff of smoke", not the tabi sock wearing, black mask, feudal japan real life ninjas...
By dipping into wizard/sorcerer, you lose yet more BAB, which was already under threat by being a rogue/assassin. Since the assassin is by necessity more focussed on stealth and combat than the rogue, losing even more BAB is not a good thing.
I really don't think the assassin needs BAB, especially if it has spell casting. We are talking about class who ideally makes a single attack against a flatfooted and unarmoured foe before fleeing. between skills, spells and intelligence, it should be shockingly easy for any assassin to get into a possition where it can do that. All an assassin should have to do after that is escape.
To Nero24200
On the question of shamanism, anthropoogy disagree's with you profoundly. In many shamanic cultures, warriors and hunters also engage in shamanic practices. Examples of this would be lap 'shape changing' riturals in which hunters wear the skin of a preditor to embody its spirit and become better hunters. Other examples inclued the 'prayer of the prey' which is a hugely widespread practice.
It is entirely possible to classify the barbarian as a mystic class. After all of the three great frenzed traditions of the west and middle east all have a degree of religious connitation. Dervishs, Maenads and the Berserkers of the norse. It is their great frenzies of activity, their lose of self to 'rage', which ties all of these groups together. All are destinctly mysticial or religious. The rage class feature is something well outside the range of human potential. A human of average strength, cannot become 2/5ths stronger just because they are angry, something other than simple anger must be going on under this condition.
In your arguement, you don't provide an arguement for where a generic knifeman assassin would get, not just supernatural powers, but the training to actually cast spells. You only say that they would benefit form having them. Fighters would benefit from having spells casting too, but that doesn't make it thematically appropriate for them to have it. More profound however is that, as Set puts forwards, generic assassins are more useful as a core Prestige Class, they allow you to build a wider range of PC's and NPC's Both mysticial and non-mysticial, where inherant spell casting with the class would narrow this option down. I am in no way saying that we have no room for mysticial assassin traditions in pathfinder, only that the assassin prestige class is not the place for them. I look forward to seeing 'the death cultist of the grey master', 'the touch of black fingers', 'the skinsaw man' and 'calistria's cruel whisperer' prestige classes piled up next to the assassin and the red mantis assassin.
'Better yet, what good is an assassin that can't even hide his/her evil aura from detecting paladins, somthing an assassin with spells could prepere against.'
To that i must ask, what good is an assassin who is stupid enough to allow the palidin to read his aura? In fact, the very best politicial assassins would likely be able to walk right up to the paladin, kiss him on the cheek, talk with him, make the palidin fully aware of her alignment , kill her target(even if the target doesn't know its dead yet.) have several dances and leave, all with the paladin completely unable to act because striking down an ambassador in open court without proof of wrong doing is A, unlawful and B, would likely be the biggest political and social disaster the kingdom could face. Intelligence trumps magic most of the time.
As for the power, no i really consider them neither underpowered nor out of place. However to claim making a that character is built with several levels of rogue take points in intelligence, makes him 'spread' his stats more, does little but demonstrate a lack of understanding of the strengths of the rogue. Intelligence is one of the most important rogue attributes. Joint highest with dex, followed closely by charisma and wisdom. Linking spell casting to a rogue builds intelligence is just double egging a very sweet dish.
Linking spell casting to a rogue builds intelligence is just double egging a very sweet dish.
Thematically, you're correct, but in game play it doesn't work out as well then the mechanics don't fully support the "fluff" -- a couple of low-level spells hardly make one a wizard, for example. That said, I'm with you in preferring (at least) two assassin PrCs: one "mundane assassin" like the one presented, and one "arcane assassin" modelled after the Psychic Assassin PrC (which could also be modified to a "divine assassin" for Thugees, etc.).
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I would say that for a rogue, the base skill points are high enough that, unless the rogue is particularly wishing to specialise in Int-based skills that, actually isn't so critical for them.
Of course, some builds, say, a rogue that will go into Duellist or a build that needs even more skill points (on top of taking favoured class skill points and skill points for being a human, so 10 per level for free), will need Int more.
On the question of shamanism, anthropoogy disagree's with you profoundly. In many shamanic cultures, warriors and hunters also engage in shamanic practices. Examples of this would be lap 'shape changing' riturals in which hunters wear the skin of a preditor to embody its spirit and become better hunters. Other examples inclued the 'prayer of the prey' which is a hugely widespread practice.
To be fair, the magical power I'm constanty arging against doesn't have any connection to "shape changing" or other typical shamesistic powers. Besides, if you want to argue that a barbarian should have such powers that what the other threads are for.
It is entirely possible to classify the barbarian as a mystic class. After all of the three great frenzed traditions of the west and middle east all have a degree of religious connitation. Dervishs, Maenads and the Berserkers of the norse. It is their great frenzies of activity, their lose of self to 'rage', which ties all of these groups together. All are destinctly mysticial or religious. The rage class feature is something well outside the range of human potential. A human of average strength, cannot become 2/5ths stronger just because they are angry, something other than simple anger must be going on under this condition.
Have a look at the fluff on the barbarian rage. It is simply "You get angry", there is nothing mentioned about shamenistic rituals or spiritual presence, only calling in inner reserves of strenght, which FYI people in RL can do. Besides, if it was magical then rage would be classed as a supernatural ability. As it stands these magical powers still seem to funcion in a realm where magic doesn't exist (an anti-magic feild).
In your arguement, you don't provide an arguement for where a generic knifeman assassin would get, not just supernatural powers, but the training to actually cast spells.
You only say that they would benefit form having them. Fighters would benefit from having spells casting too, but that doesn't make it thematically appropriate for them to have it.
Thats not what I'm saying at all. An assassin cannot assasinate anyone with magical protection without a means to overcome it. Saddly, in the realm of D'n'D, only more magic can overcome existing magic. If an assassin is simply someone who sneaks in, then really they're just a rogue. The point of taking an assassin class is to become someone capable of stealth, infiltration and assasination, and unfortunately to really be any good at it you need magic. Try having a PC sneak into a lord's manor protected by an alarm spell (a 1st level spell I might add), no amount of stealth ranks will stop the inhabitants from discovering your presence.
To that i must ask, what good is an assassin who is stupid enough to allow the palidin to read his aura?
If you could simply choose not to have your aura read then there would be no point. As someone who has played a paladin hunted by assassins, I can say safetly that detect evil is far better than most folk give credit for. Before going into any room where I suspected a trap, a quick detect evil use would allow to me see if/how many assassins lay in wait.
In fact, the very best politicial assassins would likely be able to walk right up to the paladin, kiss him on the cheek, talk with him, make the palidin fully aware of her alignment , kill her target(even if the target doesn't know its dead yet.) have several dances and leave, all with the paladin completely unable to act because striking down an ambassador in open court without proof of wrong doing is A, unlawful and B, would likely be the biggest political and social disaster the kingdom could face. Intelligence trumps magic most of the time.
You're acting under the assumption that
A. The assassin is in a position of power and could cause the paladin to be prosectued if harmed.
B. That an assasin could openly admit his/her plans to murder someone without any reprocussions.
C. That a paladin would not attack someone who he/she knows to have just killed someone he/she was in charge of protecting.
D. That the intended target has no magical protection. If a simple spell is enough to prevent someone from sneaking in then the assassin has no chance without magical aid. In fact, even with magical aid the assassin still has the problem of dealing with ressurection spells, speak with dead spells etc. While granting the assassin spells doesn't solve all these problems, it does make some of them easier to overcome.
E. That no one would beleive the paladin if he/she said "That person is an assassin, they just admitted to killing person X and that person is now dead" even though paladins physically lose all obvious magical powers should they knowingly break their code, which requires them to always tell the truth.
In your arguement, you don't provide an arguement for where a generic knifeman assassin would get, not just supernatural powers, but the training to actually cast spells.
You constantly claim the barbarian should have magical powers simply because some myths have them, yet you argue that the assassin shouldn't even though again, some myths do have magical assassins. You're also trying to say that an assassin should be a generic knifemen, and in all honesty you do not need assassin levels for that.
they allow you to build a wider range of PC's and NPC's Both mysticial and non-mysticial
You can get non-mystical. Don't forget that unlike the barbarian, who can gain his powers even if they have no spiritual eligntenment whatsoever, an assassin only gains spells if he/she has an above-averge intellegence score i.e they need to be gifted.
As for the power, no i really consider them neither underpowered nor out of place. However to claim making a that character is built with several levels of rogue take points in intelligence, makes him 'spread' his stats more, does little but demonstrate a lack of understanding of the strengths of the rogue. Intelligence is one of the most important rogue attributes. Joint highest with dex, followed closely by charisma and wisdom. Linking spell casting to a rogue builds intelligence is just double egging a very sweet dish.
I have plenty of understanding regarding the rogue class, you're failing to see a few points.
A. Why is intellegence good for a rogue? Well fristly it was tied to several archtypical rogue skills, such as Search and disable device. Those skills however rely on other abilities now due to pathfinder skill consolidation.
B. It grants extra skill points, again, not really needed for rogue as thanks to skill consodildation (as well as possible extra skill points from favoured classes) it is even easier to cover most of the archtypical rogue's skills and still have extra.
C. You assume that only rogues become assassins. I actually have a monk/assassin character idea planned for an upcomming campaign, and I can saftly say that having to stretch my abilities over yet another vital stat is going to make things difficult, so yes, having the spells rely on intellegence can siphon some power from your character.
That said, I'm with you in preferring (at least) two assassin PrCs: one "mundane assassin" like the one presented, and one "arcane assassin" modelled after the Psychic Assassin PrC (which could also be modified to a "divine assassin" for Thugees, etc.).
Wouldn't it be easier just to make the assassin magical and have the add-on classes mundane? At least then it's backwards compatable.
Yeah, I really don't get the point of having a whole new set of save formulas besides "good saves" and "bad saves"; now we have "good PrC saves" and "bad PrC saves".
How is the 1 point change keeping anything in line? The base classes (into which I can multiclass without restrictive prerequisites) all start with a +2. It seems to me that going to +1 in the strong progressions for PrCs actually puts things out of line in order to solve a problem that no one has actually demonstrated (at least that I've seen) actually exists.There tends to be a problem at higher levels, where multiclass characters have a near automatic save value for their "good" saves and an absolutely pathetic value for their "poor" saves.
Take for example, a rogue 5/wizard 5/arcane trickster 5. Under the old system, he would have Fort +3, Ref +9, Will +9. Under the new system, he has Fort +4, Ref +8, Will +8.
Compare this to a straight rogue 12, who has Fort +4, Ref +8, Will +4, or a wizard 12, who has Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +8.
While this is not a huge difference, it does help to keep characters closer to a predictable curve. I am currently considering such rules for base class multiclassing as well, just to even things out.
Thoughts?
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I've a few ideas, that might help fix some of the odder peaks and valleys for saves and bab when multiclassing...
1, BAB: Write prestige classes around 4, 8, and 12 level progressions when possible. It would mean a little rewriting, but it's not a huge change from 5 and 10 level prestige classes, and any prestige class built this way, regardless of good, bad or medium BAB progression would get the correct total BAB. (8 Rogue/12 Assassin would have exactly the same BAB as a 20 rogue, for instance.)
And, since it's just a matter of how the prestige classes are written and not a general rule, it's completely possible to drop the idea later if it's not working or write prestige classes that intentionally break the rule as a perk.
2, Saving Throws: I'd really like to see Saving Throws work similarly to class skills. Everyone gets a certain base progression from their total character level (say, +1 at 3rd, 5th, 7th, etc.) and then classes that have a "trained" save get a bonus on that save (say +3).
You don't end up with exactly the old base saves, but it's close. Good saves are almost exactly the same (just one point higher at 1st level and the exact same afterwards) and bad saves start the same then go up just a hair faster past 8th level (which might not be a bad thing, I've seen a lot of fighters/rangers/rogues that at high levels essentially auto-fail every will save, which is no fun at all).
Since it's tied to total character level, instead of being added from each class, it keeps everyone's saves sane. A Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger's Fort save is exactly the same as the straight Fighter, for instance.
If you don't want to change the progression at all, you could just have a good and a bad save line on the "Character Traits by Level" table, and then have each class that has a 'good' save simply allow you to use the good progression from then on.
Oh, and basing the saving throws on character level also saves space in the class abilities tables, since you don't have to include the Fort/Ref/Will columns. So a lot of the class tabels can be cut down to a single column instead of spanning the page, which means fewer pages in the classes chapter, which means more room for prestige classes, spells that might be left out, etc.
Wouldn't it be easier just to make the assassin magical and have the add-on classes mundane? At least then it's backwards compatable.
I'm not too caught up on that aspect of it, honestly. Use the 3.5 assassin as yet another variant, if you want, and then there's 100% backward compatibility. So we'd have 3 assassins: one mundane, one with spells (as in 3.5), and one that has partial progression from a previous spellcasting class. Everyone is happy. The mundane one is in the Beta enhancement; the 3.5 one is on the System Reference Document; and the power-progression one is on the web in the "Mind's Eye" section of the old Wizards D&D site.
To be fair, the magical power I'm constanty arging against doesn't have any connection to "shape changing" or other typical shamesistic powers. Besides, if you want to argue that a barbarian should have such powers that what the other threads are for.
Actually its reliance is based upon your bringing up the barbarian in counterpoint to the assassin. You worked on the idea that giving barbarians mystic powers and removing spell casting from assassins was some how unjustified. What you have failed to grasp is that, form a thematic standpoint, it is entirely justified.
Have a look at the fluff on the barbarian rage. It is simply "You get angry", there is nothing mentioned about shamenistic rituals or spiritual presence, only calling in inner reserves of strenght, which FYI people in RL can do. Besides, if it was magical then rage would be classed as a supernatural ability. As it stands these magical powers still seem to funcion in a realm where magic doesn't exist (an anti-magic feild).
<sarcasm>Yes, and Biggles and Ginger where just friends too.</Sarcasm> DnD is simplistic and often shys away from difficult subjects. Through much of its history, DnD has avoided blatant elements of the occult featuring to heavily in the game to avoid the wrath of the christian right. However, despite this, the thematic routes of the barbarians are based in real world mystism.
Look, i am a biologist by training, so please don't make patently absurd claims about human strength unless you have citations to go with it. I challenge you to find me a documented example of an average human who has demonstrated the ability to almost double say their lifting capacity, in the space of say one hour, under lab conditions. Let alone with the only explination being, that they are angry.
Thats not what I'm saying at all. An assassin cannot assasinate anyone with magical protection without a means to overcome it. Saddly, in the realm of D'n'D, only more magic can overcome existing magic. If an assassin is simply someone who sneaks in, then really they're just a rogue. The point of taking an assassin class is to become someone capable of stealth, infiltration and assasination, and unfortunately to really be any good at it you need magic. Try having a PC sneak into a lord's manor protected by an alarm spell (a 1st level spell I might add), no amount of stealth ranks will stop the inhabitants from discovering your presence.
A, not all people have access to magicial protection. Such protection is expensive and the bread and butter work of an assassin is unlikely to require the use of magic. B, for those jobs when the assassin needs magic, the class has access to the magic. Its called Use magic device.
If you could simply choose not to have your aura read then there would be no point. As someone who has played a paladin hunted by assassins, I can say safetly that detect evil is far better than most folk give credit for. Before going into any room where I suspected a trap, a quick detect evil use would allow to me see if/how many assassins lay in wait.
You can actually 'choose' not to have your aura read. You first, use your skills to ensure people are not aware of your presence and stay more than 60 ft from the paladin. If you really have to walk right past that paladin, there is the mask of lies, or any number of similar items.
You're acting under the assumption that
A. The assassin is in a position of power and could cause the paladin to be prosectued if harmed.
B. That an assasin could openly admit his/her plans to murder someone without any reprocussions.
C. That a paladin would not attack someone who he/she knows to have just killed someone he/she was in charge of protecting.
D. That the intended target has no magical protection. If a simple spell is enough to prevent someone from sneaking in then the assassin has no chance without magical aid. In fact, even with magical aid the assassin still has the problem of dealing with ressurection spells, speak with dead spells etc. While granting the assassin spells doesn't solve all these problems, it does make some of them easier to overcome.
E. That no one would beleive the paladin if he/she said "That person is an assassin, they just admitted to killing person X and that person is now dead" even though paladins physically lose all obvious magical powers should they knowingly break their code, which requires them to always tell the truth.
Actually i was giving an example, not making assumptions. Secondly, i never said that assassin told the paladin what she was doing. He might well know what she is planning, but he has no evidence. The target doesn't even know its dead yet, this is an allusion to poison so the paladin doesn't see the murder taking place, or if he does, he probably doesn't recognise it for what it is.
You constantly claim the barbarian should have magical powers simply because some myths have them, yet you argue that the assassin shouldn't even though again, some myths do have magical assassins. You're also trying to say that an assassin should be a generic knifemen, and in all honesty you do not need assassin levels for that.
The strongest myth cycle about mystic assassins is the Hashshashin, whom if you where to use as the basis of the assassin class would would be hashish using, supernatually stealthy, ekstasis utterlising, fast moving, super assassins with more incommon to the PRPG barbarian or monk class than any spell caster. You know what, i'd love to see that class, preferably done as a goodly serenrae worshipping group of holy assassins.
What something based on that mythology would not be, is a spell casting knifeman.
Zombieneighbours wrotethey allow you to build a wider range of PC's and NPC's Both mysticial and non-mysticial
You can get non-mystical. Don't forget that unlike the barbarian, who can gain his powers even if they have no spiritual eligntenment whatsoever, an assassin only gains spells if he/she has an above-averge intellegence score i.e they need to be gifted.
Your option is still limited, all it means is that the character is a ungifted member of a magicial organisation.
I have plenty of understanding regarding the rogue class, you're failing to see a few points.
A. Why is intellegence good for a rogue? Well fristly it was tied to several archtypical rogue skills, such as Search and disable device. Those skills however rely on other abilities now due to pathfinder skill consolidation.
B. It grants extra skill points, again, not really needed for rogue as thanks to skill consodildation (as well as possible extra skill points from favoured classes) it is even easier to cover most of the archtypical rogue's skills and still have extra.
C. You assume that only rogues become assassins. I actually have a monk/assassin character idea planned for an upcomming campaign, and I can saftly say that having to stretch my abilities over yet another vital stat is going to make things difficult, so yes, having the spells rely on intellegence can siphon some power from your character.
Well our experience differs then, because, i have found that even playing an intelligence 16 human rogue, i am still hurting for skill points. But i am prepared to put that down to difference in play style and priorities in game play..
KirthGersen wrote:
That said, I'm with you in preferring (at least) two assassin PrCs: one "mundane assassin" like the one presented, and one "arcane assassin" modelled after the Psychic Assassin PrC (which could also be modified to a "divine assassin" for Thugees, etc.).Wouldn't it be easier just to make the assassin magical and have the add-on classes mundane? At least then it's backwards compatable.
No, not really. It would make even more work. Having the option of both is far more benificial to choice.
I would say that for a rogue, the base skill points are high enough that, unless the rogue is particularly wishing to specialise in Int-based skills that, actually isn't so critical for them.
Of course, some builds, say, a rogue that will go into Duellist or a build that needs even more skill points (on top of taking favoured class skill points and skill points for being a human, so 10 per level for free), will need Int more.
Their is like 39 skills, i can drop that ten skill point for first level just on the hobby and basic skills a concept requires ;) YMMV.
Linking spell casting to a rogue builds intelligence is just double egging a very sweet dish.Thematically, you're correct, but in game play it doesn't work out as well then the mechanics don't fully support the "fluff" -- a couple of low-level spells hardly make one a wizard, for example. That said, I'm with you in preferring (at least) two assassin PrCs: one "mundane assassin" like the one presented, and one "arcane assassin" modelled after the Psychic Assassin PrC (which could also be modified to a "divine assassin" for Thugees, etc.).
all i am saying is that a rogue built assassin looses very little by having a high Int as skills are really the thing that they do best. Giving them spells on top of those skills is just extra tastieness
<sarcasm>Yes, and Biggles and Ginger where just friends too.</Sarcasm> DnD is simplistic and often shys away from difficult subjects. Through much of its history, DnD has avoided blatant elements of the occult featuring to heavily in the game to avoid the wrath of the christian right. However, despite this, the thematic routes of the barbarians are based in real world mystism.
D'n'D has avoided blatent elements of the occult? Is this the same game were you can gain powers from working with demons and devils? (blackguard). Tell me, do you have a source which confirms some barbarian myths that warriors could, in fact set their weapons on fire? I have seen barbaric myths involving shapechanging and divination, but never that. Should we account for these as well? Screw the class dedicated to tribal magic and just give the barbarian everything while we're at it.
Look, i am a biologist by training, so please don't make patently absurd claims about human strength unless you have citations to go with it. I challenge you to find me a documented example of an average human who has demonstrated the ability to almost double say their lifting capacity, in the space of say one hour, under lab conditions. Let alone with the only explination being, that they are angry.
You're blowing what I said out of proporation. I claimed humans can have an inner reserve of strength, I never once did say that it allowed anyone to double their lifting capacity. Besides, can you prove humans don't have an inner reserve of strength? How many RL people have overcome diseases or survived horrible accidents even though the odds were against them?
A, not all people have access to magicial protection. Such protection is expensive and the bread and butter work of an assassin is unlikely to require the use of magic.
I guess you're right there, I mean, I doubt an assassin would ever go after a wealthy target.
You can actually 'choose' not to have your aura read. You first, use your skills to ensure people are not aware of your presence and stay more than 60 ft from the paladin. If you really have to walk right past that paladin, there is the mask of lies, or any number of similar items.
This relies on the assumption that you know the paladin is there. If we were aware of the presence of all foes then being stealty would be pointless. What if staying more than 60ft away isn't an option? Generally if someone is being guarded, the guard stays close.
Your option is still limited, all it means is that the character is a ungifted member of a magicial organisation.
Here was me thinking someone with above averege attributes would have access to abilities not everyone does.
all i am saying is that a rogue built assassin looses very little by having a high Int as skills are really the thing that they do best. Giving them spells on top of those skills is just extra tastieness.
You're relying on the same problems as the origonal designers of 3.5, you're assuming that everyone is going to play the class your way. Not every asssassin is going to be a rogue, so the class shouldn't be based entirely around that assumption.
Yeah actually, the move away from using real world demons as source names for extraplanar entities as a way of dealing with the backlash of the christian right is well documented.
With regards to flaming weapons, i can think of no examples right at this momment, but i do know ruffle how it would work within a shamanic paradigm. Basicially you'd bind a spirit of fire into your weapon as a fetish or ask an tribel totem of fire to briefly enhabit your weapon. Its not entirely outside the realms of what shamanism should be able to do in a setting where there powers actually work.
As for blowing it out of proportion...well, that is essentially what you claimed. Not word for word, but implying rage could be supernatural in some way. Joyfully i don't have to prove that ''humans don't have an inner reserve of strength'' Thanks to Bertrand Russell and the celestial teapot hypothsis. The burden of proof is on you :P Their is a difference between saying some one is healthy and likely to survive desease and that they can suddenly become fundimentally stronger and tougher because they are angry.
As for your last point. To do the things which an assassin is required to do, to achieve there mission, they will need either, good skills or magic. That means that in the majority of builds intelligence is going to have some importance, be it fighter, or wizard, bard or ranger. Either skill points or magic will benifit. Even those classes which us other stats for magic, will still have use for the skill points. All that said, rogue is likely by far the most common base class to enter assassin.
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Yeah actually, the move away from using real world demons as source names for extraplanar entities as a way of dealing with the backlash of the christian right is well documented.
With regards to flaming weapons, i can think of no examples right at this momment, but i do know ruffle how it would work within a shamanic paradigm. Basicially you'd bind a spirit of fire into your weapon as a fetish or ask an tribel totem of fire to briefly enhabit your weapon. Its not entirely outside the realms of what shamanism should be able to do in a setting where there powers actually work.
As for blowing it out of proportion...well, that is essentially what you claimed. Not word for word, but implying rage could be supernatural in some way. Joyfully i don't have to prove that ''humans don't have an inner reserve of strength'' Thanks to Bertrand Russell and the celestial teapot hypothsis. The burden of proof is on you :P Their is a difference between saying some one is healthy and likely to survive desease and that they can suddenly become fundimentally stronger and tougher because they are angry.
As for your last point. To do the things which an assassin is required to do, to achieve there mission, they will need either, good skills or magic. That means that in the majority of builds intelligence is going to have some importance, be it fighter, or wizard, bard or ranger. Either skill points or magic will benifit. Even those classes which us other stats for magic, will still have use for the skill points. All that said, rogue is likely by far the most common base class to enter assassin.
The problem is that no matter how skillful the rogue is, magic always trumps his skills. A simple 1st level alarm spell can trump all of his stealth. Most of the time, you have to have magic to counteract magic. The assassain needs magic in a magical world to be good at his job. The reason they get magic is that it's part of their training. It's mostly glossed over by most players and DMs, but it states you have to kill someone for no other reason than to join the assassains. This implies that you join an assassain's guild when you become an assassain and receive formal training in many things including magic. Of course,it would make more sense if they had to memorize spells instead of being spontaneous casters, so I would be fine with that change.
Re: the Non-Magical Assassin.
Isn't that what's known as 'The Rogue'?
I don't think so. Some rogues may specialize in assassination, but not all rogues are full-time murderers.
Re: the Non-Magical Assassin.
Isn't that what's known as 'The Rogue'?
No, the assassin gets to roll on the assassination table and the assassin's thief abilities aren't as good.
Wait...maybe I'm thinking of a different version of D&D.
To WotC's Nightmare
Just on the alarm idea, first of all, it costs a total of 3040 GP cost to get a perminancied alarm, with the casting of perminancy it self costing so much that it is only 50gp short of being considered not generally availible and because it is site based away form the casters home, his default answer upon being asked to do it, is no. The effect itself is increadibly limited. Smallish area of effect. The sound of the spell can only be heard within 60ft minus 10ft for interviening doors, minus 20ft for intervining walls. In short, not every job an assassin does is going to have even the most rudimentry magicial protection.
Their are skill based routes around many spells, for instance in the case of alarm, good leg work will get an assassin past it in most cases:
Perform, diplomacy, combat skills and stealth and any number of other skills- A good enough distraction, or simply killing the guards stationed to protect the subject of the alarm massively increase the chance that no one will be able to respond to the triggering of the alarm.
Deplomacy - An alarm spell has a password for entry, in almost every cases this alarms password will be known to atleast two people, the caster and the owner. At the very least, one can track down the original caster and get the password form him.
Deplomacy, intimidation, stealth, money, drugs or any number of other approachs - in most cases others also know this password, be it maids, guards, the targets lover or any number of other people. They can be bribed, tortured, intimidated, seduced, convinced or turned against there master/lover, granting you the password, then killed.
Animal training- Train a monkey to enter and then trigger the alarm, over the course of a month, until the alarm is no longer taken seriously, or out right removed because of annoyance.
Use magic device- just dispell it with a scroll.
This process should be familiur to cyberpunk and shadowrun players, it is called leg work.
Now its true, that an assassin, trying to assassinate a paranoid, entrenched and grumpy wizard is going to stand little chance... this is why one would higher a specialist wizard killer for such a job. Perhapes some one with levels of wizard and assassin or a different prestige class.
Yeah actually, the move away from using real world demons as source names for extraplanar entities as a way of dealing with the backlash of the christian right is well documented.
So changing the name is them shying away from it? Does that really change the fact that not only can you still have characters that work alongside deamons, but for one prestige class this idea is actually encouraged?
With regards to flaming weapons, i can think of no examples right at this momment.
So you were defending an ability with the argument of "but in RL mythologies barberic tribes did have access to magic" even though the ability in question doesn't match these myths.
As for blowing it out of proportion...well, that is essentially what you claimed. Not word for word, but implying rage could be supernatural in some way.
Actually I'm claiming it should be supernatural based on what you said, as claim that humans don't have any physical inner reserves of strength. If you really beleive this then yes, rage should be supernatural, since it increases the physical capacity of the rager. Truthfully, I think rage should be supernatural, but it isn't, so should we make it seem more out of place by providing supernatural abilities on top of what's already considered mundane?
As for your last point. To do the things which an assassin is required to do, to achieve there mission, they will need either, good skills or magic.
Actually my agrument relies on the fact that any wealthy target can make it almost impossible for an assassin relaying purely on skills to succede.
That means that in the majority of builds intelligence is going to have some importance, be it fighter, or wizard, bard or ranger. Either skill points or magic will benifit. Even those classes which us other stats for magic, will still have use for the skill points. All that said, rogue is likely by far the most common base class to enter assassin.
Again, as I said earlier, if you only build the class based on just one core class it will not fix anything.
Most of the time, you have to have magic to counteract magic. The assassain needs magic in a magical world to be good at his job.
This is the point I'm trying to emphasise, the point of an assassin is to kill targets which would normally be ahrd to kill, and saddly magic is needed for this. Even if you argue that it makes the class different from it's iconic view or that theses little-to-no myths for it's basis, it becomes hard to argue that it wouldn't make sense given a typical D'n'D setting and the readily avalible low-level spells which can counteract an assassins skills so easily.
Deplomacy - An alarm spell has a password for entry, in almost every cases this alarms password will be known to atleast two people, the caster and the owner. At the very least, one can track down the original caster and get the password form him.
This requirs the assasssin to know of the alarm spell, which would be easy if the assassin had a means of detecting magic. Even with spells an assassin is still trumped by alarm. Not just alarm either, spells such as arcane lock can force stealth out the window when the only means of reaching your target requires you to break down a door. An alter self or disguise self spell can make finding the right target hard, which wasn't too much of a problem before since the asssasin had access to spells such as locate creature.
Use magic device- just dispell it with a scroll.
With the new paizo version of skills the only advantage an assassin has with use magic device is that he gets a +3 bonus to it. While it's easy to dispel spells with this ability, it's also alot easier for non-casting NPC's to have these spells too, potentially throwing up more magic-oreintated obstecles.
Deplomacy, intimidation, stealth, money, drugs or any number of other approachs - in most cases others also know this password, be it maids, guards, the targets lover or any number of other people. They can be bribed, tortured, intimidated, seduced, convinced or turned against there master/lover, granting you the password, then killed.
Only the caster and one person need know it, in fact if you use "use magic device" as you continously claim is a good idea for non-spellcasting classes, only the person attempting to use the alarm need know it. If it's a mental alarm then it's possible that others don't even know the alarm spell exists. This again, also entails the assassin working to finding these people, what if they have protection too? If someone thinks their loved ones or friends might be a target they'll be taken into account too.
Animal training- Train a monkey to enter and then trigger the alarm, over the course of a month, until the alarm is no longer taken seriously, or out right removed because of annoyance.
Or, you know, since there isn't likely to be any such thing as animal rights in a typical medievil setting, the gaurds could just kill the monkey. If you spend gold on protection to stop you being killed you aren't going to disregard it so easily.
Now its true, that an assassin, trying to assassinate a paranoid, entrenched and grumpy wizard is going to stand little chance... this is why one would higher a specialist wizard killer for such a job. Perhapes some one with levels of wizard and assassin or a different prestige class.
This is why I feel assasssins should have magic, if you think hiring a non-assassin is alot easier then it renders the class obsolete. Secondly, this won't apply to jsut paraniod wizards. If use magic device is such a good alterantvie to spells then whats to stop a potential target learning to use one wand? Thirdly, it doesn't require the target to be entrentched either, since an assassin no longer has access to spells such as disguise self, ghost sound, expedious retreat or pass without trace killing someone in public is now pretty difficult. A ranged assasination with leave a bolt or arrow which can be used to scry on the assassin (again, something that could be avoided with assassin spells) and a melee killing would require the assassin to be up close, near the potential target's guards and even in plain view of city guards as well.
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Let's not forget that the easiest and most reliable way for an assassain to actually be able to use his qunintisential class ability is to observe a target for 3 rounds while invisible. That's a lot easier when the assassain can cast invisibility or later, greater invisibility on himself. Now, the Pathfinder assassain can try it once a day without invisibility, but not until he reaches at least 15th level. Most PC's will never even reach that high of a level.
Yeah actually, the move away from using real world demons as source names for extraplanar entities as a way of dealing with the backlash of the christian right is well documented.So changing the name is them shying away from it? Does that really change the fact that not only can you still have characters that work alongside deamons, but for one prestige class this idea is actually encouraged?
Changing names to something less politicially sensitive and more appealing to a mass market? Mmm...i wonder what else they might have changed?
I know you find this hard to swallow, but there is a direct thematic lineage from the barbarian to norse berserkers and other similiar myths, you can't get away from it. Just because the publishers use a different Nomenclature to discribe the source of that, doesn't mean that the reference isn't there and that it doesn't make perfect sense to build upon ot
So you were defending an ability with the argument of "but in RL mythologies barberic tribes did have access to magic" even though the ability in question doesn't match these myths.
Complete mischaracterisation of my statement. I said i could think of nothing at that momment in time. Fortunately i have a copy of 'larousse encyclopedia of mythology' in front of me, Its a 500ish page academic text book on the subject. Would you like to put money on the fact i cant find a reference to a hero from a shamanic culture, who has a destinct and powerful link to fire. Because, you know, fire is one of the great universals of human myth. The archotype of the fire bringer is well documents.
That all aside, it is within the paradigm of shamanic magic, it is the sort of thing that might well exist within the contect of fantasy shamanism
Actually I'm claiming it should be supernatural based on what you said, as claim that humans don't have any physical inner reserves of strength. If you really beleive this then yes, rage should be supernatural, since it increases the physical capacity of the rager. Truthfully, I think rage should be supernatural, but it isn't, so should we make it seem more out of place by providing supernatural abilities on top of what's already considered mundane?
It is not in the slightest bit out of place to people who actually understand it. And yes, i would be happy to see it get a supernatural ability tag. I'd be even happier to see it get a "Spiritual super-natural ability" tag and have areas like the manawastes prevent only arcane and divine powers.
Actually my agrument relies on the fact that any wealthy target can make it almost impossible for an assassin relaying purely on skills to succede.
Yep with that 3040gp just for one alarm spell and the default "i'm not doing it", from the spell caster, i can see why you beleive that every wealthy potential target(because ofcause, every targets going to be a wealthy weat baron and couldn't possibly be Joey 'Niceguy' who was responcible for the bosses gun moll getting pinched by the Gendarme OR say a local demigogue who's tryin' to convince the business owners that if they band together and make a stand, they'll never have to pay protection again.) is going to fork out for magicial defences with can be taken down more cheeply than they are put up, by a savvy lowlife.
I'll deal with the rest in the morning.
Complete mischaracterisation of my statement.
Before I go further, I would like to say that you have done this several times to me, so you have no right to complain.
I said i could think of nothing at that momment in time. Fortunately i have a copy of 'larousse encyclopedia of mythology' in front of me, Its a 500ish page academic text book on the subject. Would you like to put money on the fact i cant find a reference to a hero from a shamanic culture, who has a destinct and powerful link to fire. Because, you know, fire is one of the great universals of human myth. The archotype of the fire bringer is well documents.
Does it also included weapons fused with cold, electricty or acid as well? Does this link with fire allow them to put their weapons on fire magically?
Yep with that 3040gp just for one alarm spell and the default "i'm not doing it", from the spell caster.
As said earlier, if UMD is a good alternative to spellcasting as you claim, then no spellcaster is required, just a wand or scoll.
every targets going to be a wealthy weat baron and couldn't possibly be Joey 'Niceguy' who was responcible for the bosses gun moll getting pinched by the Gendarme OR say a local demigogue who's tryin' to convince the business owners that if they band together and make a stand, they'll never have to pay protection again.
Assasssins wouldn't be needy for mister Joey Niceguy who isn't going to cause much problems if he suddenly disapears. Folk who aren't wealthy can be dealt with easily enough with random thugs, an assassin is only really needed when theirs guards to avoid and you need to keep the blame away from you.
Let's not forget that the easiest and most reliable way for an assassain to actually be able to use his qunintisential class ability is to observe a target for 3 rounds while invisible. That's a lot easier when the assassain can cast invisibility or later, greater invisibility on himself. Now, the Pathfinder assassain can try it once a day without invisibility, but not until he reaches at least 15th level. Most PC's will never even reach that high of a level.
Even then, it's only DC 20+Int, which isn't too hard to overcome at that level, and at the end of the day, it's 10 class levels and your best class feature is only 1/Day.
This is the point I'm trying to emphasise, the point of an assassin is to kill targets which would normally be ahrd to kill, and saddly magic is needed for this. Even if you argue that it makes the class different from it's iconic view or that theses little-to-no myths for it's basis, it becomes hard to argue that it wouldn't make sense given a typical D'n'D setting and the readily avalible low-level spells which can counteract an assassins skills so easily.
It is that same ready availiblity which means that the assassin is not required to be a spell caster, just compitent in the use of magic items.
We have no thematic basis for basic assassins being magicial, we have no special need for them to be to be capable of doing their job.
Certainly, magicial assassins would have an advantage, but such assassins should be dealt with by setting specific prestige classes, not the generic assassin.
This requirs the assasssin to know of the alarm spell, which would be easy if the assassin had a means of detecting magic. Even with spells an assassin is still trumped by alarm. Not just alarm either, spells such as arcane lock can force stealth out the window when the only means of reaching your target requires you to break down a door. An alter self or disguise self spell can make finding the right target hard, which wasn't too much of a problem before since the asssasin had access to spells such as locate creature.
An assassin worth his salt shouldn't need detect magic, because his preperation has already informed him of the magicial threats involved. Good leg work and skill roles will get the infomation.
Arcane lock does not make it impossible to open, just harder, skill can overcome it. it is however relatively cheap anti-intrusion spell.
Alter self hugely limited duration(max 40 minites), disguise self better but still limited to less than an nights sleep under most conditions. Both options are as expensive or more so as alarm, if cast by wand.
With the new paizo version of skills the only advantage an assassin has with use magic device is that he gets a +3 bonus to it. While it's easy to dispel spells with this ability, it's also alot easier for non-casting NPC's to have these spells too, potentially throwing up more magic-oreintated obstecles.
Yes it is easy, but massively expensive. The assassin has the advantage of only having to deal with a spell once, which makes it cost efficient to carry a wand or some scrolls, for something to be part of a defence system it must be perminant(meaning that knowledge of it is likely availible) or ungodly expensive. The only people who can seriously relie heavily on magic for this kind of thing are cranky, paranoid wizards who live alone in secluded towers.
Only the caster and one person need know it, in fact if you use "use magic device" as you continously claim is a good idea for non-spellcasting classes, only the person attempting to use the alarm need know it. If it's a mental alarm then it's possible that others don't even know the alarm spell exists. This again, also entails the assassin working to finding these people, what if they have protection too? If someone thinks their loved ones or friends might be a target they'll be taken into account too.
Assuming that lord Tanglewort wishs to protect his bedroom alone, with an alarm spell from a wand that will cast alarm to protect him through an 8-hour sleep, lord tangleworts yearly budget for magicial security in his bedroom alone is a staggering 21900 Gp. Ofcause, if he also want to protect his room through the other 16 hours of the day, when some one could sneak poison into his sheets or something drastedly like that, his costs will increase sharply to 65700. But hell also need to be changing and washing his own bedding, taking no more lovers, doing his own security checks.
If it is perminacied by some one else, Lord Tanglewort still has to make the social and personal changes(loose his vallet, his maids, his personal guards checking the room before bed) and staff gossip, why is it that no one is allowed in the room, meaning that an assassin trying to enter that room, can find out that there is something specific ahead of time through leg work.
Or, you know, since there isn't likely to be any such thing as animal rights in a typical medievil setting, the gaurds could just kill the monkey. If you spend gold on protection to stop you being killed you aren't going to disregard it so easily.
Assuming the monkey is caught, which is not garrentied if the use of the tactic is not predictable and the monkey is well trained. This was as much a comic example of something from left feild being used than a serious example, though it isn't without merit.
I grew up in a boarding school. One week, the fire alarm went of every night for a week, by the weekend, the fire alarm had been turned off until the monday morning when the engineer would be able to look it over.
large amounts of money was spent to install that for the protection of a great many lives, yet, the disruption, annoyance and negative effect it had on our responce to fire alarms in general, was considered the greater threat, so it was turned off for two days.
This is why I feel assasssins should have magic, if you think hiring a non-assassin is alot easier then it renders the class obsolete. Secondly, this won't apply to jsut paraniod wizards. If use magic device is such a good alterantvie to spells then whats to stop a potential target learning to use one wand? Thirdly, it doesn't require the target to be entrentched either, since an assassin no longer has access to spells such as disguise self, ghost sound, expedious retreat or pass without trace killing someone in public is now pretty difficult. A ranged assasination with leave a bolt or arrow which can be used to scry on the assassin (again, something that could be avoided with assassin spells) and a melee killing would require the assassin to be up close, near the potential target's guards and even in plain view of city guards as well.
Firstly, wizards are only one example of a target, there are numerous others. So saying that trouble dealing with wizards, makes the assassin obsolete is frankly silly. All it means is that you need a different type of specialist assassin to deal with a wizard. The assassin class does the job of 'every day' assassin admerably
I've already explained why its a good idea for an assassin to use use magic device, but 'less good for defenders of a target.' To demonstrate however, here is the relative cost of maintaining a single magicial alarm for a year next to the price for overcoming it.
Cost to defender/anum:65700 gp
Cost to assassin to overcome 255gp
Other options than personal spell use open to the assassin.
Ranged assassin scared of scrying: invest in a bolt which destroys itself after us, employ a wizard from your guild to hide you from scrying or invest in anti scrying magic items
Other options for a Melee kill-
Use social skills to incite riot as a distraction to close one and kill target, don't kill him in public, Purchase a improved invisibility consumable, purchase a invisiblity magic item.
Before I go further, I would like to say that you have done this several times to me, so you have no right to complain.
I have ever right to complain, not only that, I have never intentionally misrepresented your position. If you feel that I have, I'd be more that happy to hear your case for me having done so. If i agree, i'll be happy to apologise and if I do not, I will be happy to explain why I believe the statement is not a miss representation of your views as stated.
Does it also included weapons fused with cold, electricty or acid as well? Does this link with fire allow them to put their weapons on fire magically?
I suspect i can find heroes and gods from shamanic and paganic myth cycles with a specific tie to Cold and Lightning yes. Thor and his hammer for instance, who is a god who likely grew out of an earlier myths, just as one instance of a tie which comes easily to mind. As for the flaming sword, i really haven't had the time to do the research on specific instances, but i would be very suprised if i couldn't find own, it is a powerfully iconic idea, possibly even archetypal.
As said earlier, if UMD is a good alternative to spellcasting as you claim, then no spellcaster is required, just a wand or scroll.
Its a good option, for the assassin. That does not mean it is a good or cost efficient option for the defender, see my previous posts for why.
Assasssins wouldn't be needy for mister Joey Niceguy who isn't going to cause much problems if he suddenly disapears. Folk who aren't wealthy can be dealt with easily enough with random thugs, an assassin is only really needed when theirs guards to avoid and you need to keep the blame away from you.
Unless ofcause, your sending a message, or the matter is to sensitive to be left to the vagaries of chance. With the Demigogue example, you have all the need in the world to make it look like something other than a murder, lest you martyr the man. It depends on the assassin, his employer and the style of the story.
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To Zombieneighbours:
Given that you have no problem accepting the shamanic tradition, as a justification for bestowing magical powers to barbarian warriors, who are, in all other respects, non-casters;
Why can't we assume that a Guild of Assassins would be run by shamans?
"See the Spirit World" = Detect Magic
"Guidance of the Snake-Father" = Detect Poison
"Whispers of the Spirits" = Ghost Sound
"Legs of Brother Gazelle" = Jump
"Arms of Brother Gibbon" = Spider Climb
"Cloak of the Dead" = Nondetection
"Advice of the Spirit Guide" = Clairaudience
"Voice of the Ancestor" = Glibness
"Anger of the Unfairly Slain" = Death Attack
Tweak your fluff to fit your own cosmology and belief system.
It seems to me that your stubbornness on this issue has less to do with the existence in the game of 'warriors with supernatural powers', and has more to do with you having some personal, emotional, investment in real-world shamanism, and wanting to 'prove' it superior to other beliefs.
Curse you post monster! Eating my posts! *Shakes an angry fist at the Net.*
Firstly just to settle the weird little ad hominim attack. No i have no special interest in shamanism. I am not a shaman, Neo-shamanist or a beleiver in animism. I am in fact, an atheist. So i have no emotional investment in any cultures magic sky daddy.
What i care about is that Classes make sense from the perpective of theme and that they have different an interesting systems. Not all magic need be dealt with by spells, because not all magic in myth takes the form of 'distinct spells'.
The reason i don't want to see spells on the 'assassin' is because A, they do not need them and B, there is not a core mysticial tradition associated with assassins. If anything the mythology associated with assassins it is that of 'exceptional skill' which falls in the same mythology as most fighters. The appropreate subsystem for dealing with that is specific class features and feats, not spell casting.
At the end of the day, i am being stubbern cause the arguements put to me don't stand up, and i enjoy the discussion.
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Personally, I think the "Magic Sky Daddy" jibe was way out of line. You may be an atheist, but there are many of us who are not athesists. Using that type of terminology is dismissive and insulting.
To get back to the topic at hand. D&D mythology and real world mythology are not one and the same. Sometimes they are similar because most D&D mythology is based on real world mythology, but many times they are very different. Besides, the D&D barbaarian in 3.5, most closely resembles the Viking bersker (as far as rage goes) than trial warriors that practice shamanistic mysticism. Binding fire spirits into a sword fits a D&D druid far more than it fits a D&D barbarian. D&D's version of the barbarian is not one of a spellcaster or a mystic. In fact, in earlier editions they were very much against magic (at least arcane magic). In D&D land causing weapons to burn with fire or drip acid just doesn't fit in with the barbarain class, but an assassain casting some minor spells to make him more competent does with in with the assassain class in D&D.
The reason i don't want to see spells on the 'assassin' is because A, they do not need them and B, there is not a core mysticial tradition associated with assassins.
Point A is debatable, by the sounds of previous posts made by paizo (though I could be misinterperting) is that the spells were removed due to an increase in power, but I don't think this is needed as the assassin has only really gained was a hit dice increase, silent death, hidden weapon, and swift death. It may just be my opinion, but I don't feel these make the class all that powerful, in fact I feel the assassin is a little weaker than he was previously.
The appropreate subsystem for dealing with that is specific class features and feats, not spell casting.
I agree that appropraite class features could solve the problem, it would take up far too much space and would be harder to fit in terms of balance. Assassin spells are already play-tested and solve the problem, and it also keeps the class backwards compatable, which is a big factor for some.
Thor and his hammer for instance, who is a god who likely grew out of an earlier myths, just as one instance of a tie which comes easily to mind.
I may be wrong about this, but in that particular case, the hammer itself contains the thunder powers, so really, couldn't that be argued that it's a magic weapon rather than Thor's energy?
Unless ofcause, your sending a message,
What's the point of sending a message if no-one knows the message was from you? Thugs can "send a message" pretty well.
The appropreate subsystem for dealing with that is specific class features and feats
And yet despite such feats existing in the SRD, you won't apply the same arugment to the barbarian. I've actually played a semi-magical warrior using only the fighter base class and feats, and it worked well, it was also the most unqiue and interesting character I ever made. If you really want these features for the barbarian, then use those feats instead.
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Curse you post monster! Eating my posts! *Shakes an angry fist at the Net.*
Firstly just to settle the weird little ad hominim attack. No i have no special interest in shamanism. I am not a shaman, Neo-shamanist or a beleiver in animism. I am in fact, an atheist. So i have no emotional investment in any cultures magic sky daddy.
It wasn't an attack, ad hominem or otherwise.
I was generally curious, since you've referred several times to your library of mythological reference books.A lot of people take issue with specific rules because of their real-world beliefs. Some devout Christians have described how they had misgivings about playing a game with polytheistic deities, or expected they would get grief about it from parents and church leaders. Yet, once their DM amended the background fluff, to show there was one Overgod Creator, they had no problem accepting the official pantheon as being composed of angels and saints, who granted inspiration, rather than demanding worship, battling the followers of fallen spirits (most certainly NOT gods, oh no!).
You seemed to have no problem with shamanistic magical barbarians, but have a mental block when it came to magical assassins. Is it just because they are arcane casters?
If so, just change the fluff. An Assassin can be a Holy Slayer, a Sith psychic warrior, a Shamanic Avenger, powered by Incarnum, or channeling a Vestige of the Demi-God of Murder.
Whatever helps you sleep at night.
What we don't need is a non-magical Assassin, since the Rogue has that covered. Sneak Attack, long skill list, max skill points, Rogue Talents. A pair of Rogue3, attacking from surprise, and winning initiative can deal up to 18d6 damage before the target can act (avge 63hp), and leave him bleeding at 2hp/round, which will drop most of the population before they can get help. And the Rogue can be such a ruthless killer, without having to compromise his alignment (even Lawful Good). Unless the Assassin can offer something new, there's no reason to take the class.
Personally, I think the "Magic Sky Daddy" jibe was way out of line. You may be an atheist, but there are many of us who are not athesists. Using that type of terminology is dismissive and insulting.
To get back to the topic at hand. D&D mythology and real world mythology are not one and the same. Sometimes they are similar because most D&D mythology is based on real world mythology, but many times they are very different. Besides, the D&D barbaarian in 3.5, most closely resembles the Viking bersker (as far as rage goes) than trial warriors that practice shamanistic mysticism. Binding fire spirits into a sword fits a D&D druid far more than it fits a D&D barbarian. D&D's version of the barbarian is not one of a spellcaster or a mystic. In fact, in earlier editions they were very much against magic (at least arcane magic). In D&D land causing weapons to burn with fire or drip acid just doesn't fit in with the barbarain class, but an assassain casting some minor spells to make him more competent does with in with the assassain class in D&D.
Without wanting to get to far into it;
"I don't know that atheists should be regarded as citizens, nor should they be regarded as patriotic. This is one nation under God." George H. W. Bush, sinior. This is dismissive and an insulting.Describing theistic deities by the characteristics most associated to them being magicial, being often described as in the sky and being paternal, was a slightly misplaced attempt at using humour to mitigate my annoyance at an ad hominim attack. However if it caused you undue offence, i am sorry to you.
With regards to your comments on barbarians. I rather think i should point you towards the actualmythology of the Norse beserker and my previous posts, where, if i am not mistaken i pointed toward the beserker as a primary insperations. It is this very connection which is one of the core reasons for beleiving that Barbarians should be treated as a mysticial class.
Numerous examples can be found in myth for the beserker as being a shape changer. " The berserker,too, was often said to change into bestial form, or at least to assume the ferocious qualities of the wolf or bear." -(Barry, S. 2003. pg. 1)
Wolfs and bears are most commonly attributed to the beserkers, as Barry states, this tie is considered so strong that some academics consider it a strong potential origin for werewolf myths. The clear shamanic elements also such as vision question and channeling of totems is also seen in berserker myth. "Dumézil refers to this phenomenon as the hamingja (“spirit” or “soul”) or fylgja
(“spirit form”) of the berserker, which may appear in animal form in
dreams or in visions, as well as in reality (1973:142). Another Odin quality possessed by the berserk is a magical immunity to weapons." -(Barry, S. 2003. pg. 2).
Ecstatic riturals and drug us, used may also have been an importent element of Beserker culture.
'Modern scholars believe that certain examples of berserker rage have been
induced voluntarily by the consumption of drugs such as the hallucinogenic
mushroom Amanita muscaria (Fabing 1956:232), or massive quantities of alcohol
(Wernick 1979:285). While such practices would fit in with ritual usages
connected with shamanism, other explanations for the berserker’s madness
have been offered, including self-induced hysteria, epilepsy, mental illness
or genetic flaws (Foote and Wilson 1970:285).' -(Barry, S. 2003. pg. 3).
The beserker is not alone, it is one of many groups in many cultures who
can be seen as the spiritual forebares of the barbarian as a class.
Despite all this, solid deep routed myth. Strong themes which speak to the nature of humans and architypes which play out in our myth, time and again, you would argue that the barbarian is just a dumb angry brute. Because , if that is the case, i say it is you who is being dismissive and insulting. I applored paizo actually having the guts to take the barbarian closer to its roots.
Curse you post monster! Eating my posts! *Shakes an angry fist at the Net.*
Firstly just to settle the weird little ad hominim attack. No i have no special interest in shamanism. I am not a shaman, Neo-shamanist or a beleiver in animism. I am in fact, an atheist. So i have no emotional investment in any cultures magic sky daddy.
It wasn't an attack, ad hominem or otherwise.
I was generally curious, since you've referred several times to your library of mythological reference books.A lot of people take issue with specific rules because of their real-world beliefs. Some devout Christians have described how they had misgivings about playing a game with polytheistic deities, or expected they would get grief about it from parents and church leaders. Yet, once their DM amended the background fluff, to show there was one Overgod Creator, they had no problem accepting the official pantheon as being composed of angels and saints, who granted inspiration, rather than demanding worship, battling the followers of fallen spirits (most certainly NOT gods, oh no!).
You seemed to have no problem with shamanistic magical barbarians, but have a mental block when it came to magical assassins. Is it just because they are arcane casters?
If so, just change the fluff. An Assassin can be a Holy Slayer, a Sith psychic warrior, a Shamanic Avenger, powered by Incarnum, or channeling a Vestige of the Demi-God of Murder.
Whatever helps you sleep at night.What we don't need is a non-magical Assassin, since the Rogue has that covered. Sneak Attack, long skill list, max skill points, Rogue Talents. A pair of Rogue3, attacking from surprise, and winning initiative can deal up to 18d6 damage before the target can act (avge 63hp), and leave him bleeding at 2hp/round, which will drop most of the population before they can get help. And the Rogue can be such a ruthless killer, without having to compromise his alignment (even Lawful Good). Unless the Assassin can offer something new, there's no...
For the record i made reference to only one book, though i do have others on the subject. My mother studied history of art at university before training as a lawyer. Between herm myself and her partner we have hundreds of books of diverse subjects, not even including my substantial roleplaying collection, so its not exactly strange that amongst the collection there might be the odd book on alchemy, mythology or anatomy.
Please don't beleive i have some mental block against the possiblity of individual magic weilding assassins, or groups of them. I am a long term mage the ascentions fan and happen to love the euthanitos, who are a group of mysticial assassins. But, it is not the fact that they are assassins that gives them magic, it is there magic and beleif that makes them assassins.
If paizo wanted to create a book full of prestige classes, or specific builds to represent members of assassin organisations, i would love nothing more than to sit and read through them, understanding why group A is able to step through shadows, while group b, hunts exclusively those who have commited evil acts and why that same group has divine magic.
But, despite seeing room for all that, i beleive that the general, run of the mill assassin, who isn't part of a death cult, or a demon worshipper, or a divinely ordained ender of those who seek to escape death or member of a magicial order, joe the knife, he should be allowed to get one with it, just being a skilled killer. if you want a wheel turner, or a murder cultist, that is the role of a setting specific prestige class.
I see nothing at all which is wrong with that stance.
I don't really see the assassin class as having been a good choice for prestige classing anyway, to be honest. I certainly don't think that is should have spells for no reason, but i would be more than happy to see it replaces by say the Red Mantis Assassins, or any on of the hundreds of possible setting specific assassin groups who would be more interesting. But, if we are to retain the generic assassin, it should remain without spells.
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As I said before, D&D barbarians are different from real world historical barbarians. D&D takes certain tropes and archetypes and alters them to make them uniquely D&D. Mysticism fits the D&D druid far more than it fits the D&D barbarian. If you want to bind fire "spirits' into your sword, play a druid or an artificer, not a barbarian. The shapechanging while raging aspect may fit a D&D barbarian to some degree, but that sounds more like a specific barbarian PrC such as the bear warrior than an option for every barbarian.
As I said before, D&D barbarians are different from real world historical barbarians. D&D takes certain tropes and archetypes and alters them to make them uniquely D&D. Mysticism fits the D&D druid far more than it fits the D&D barbarian. If you want to bind fire "spirits' into your sword, play a druid or an artificer, not a barbarian. The shapechanging while raging aspect may fit a D&D barbarian to some degree, but that sounds more like a specific barbarian PrC such as the bear warrior than an option for every barbarian.
Based on what Jason Bulmahn and paizo have produced so far, and the work they have done with Barbarians, i don't think they agree. And to be honest, i am very glad they don't seem to. Much as i was glad to see Lamia's with snake tails.