see, I like those better than the existing Prc. Fewer spells, but just being able to substitute some divine ones for arcane ones (or vice versa) might even get me to play one of those.
Mystic theurge was only good for sorcerers who dipped their toe into cleric.. Wizards lost the bonus feats and clerics lose turning, armor, hp
domain spells.. In fact in 3rd ED the only way to make a sorcerer really worthwhile was to PRC it.. for them a full spell progression PRC was allways better then thier base class levels.
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I'm personally waiting to see what happens to the Thaumaturgist, mostly because I'd have a kickass concept for a Cleric of Asmodeus going this path.
What's that? Using Devil's Mark and Presence of the Pit Fiend to gain a considerable bonus on Diplomacy checks to always get 50% off of infernal services? How could I refuse?
Don't know if you guys saw Jason's Livejournal Page. He talks about PrCs. Sounds like maybe he's aware of a lot of the issues.
Don't know if you guys saw Jason's Livejournal Page. He talks about PrCs. Sounds like maybe he's aware of a lot of the issues.
I have no idea what he means by the Assassin being front-loaded. You get +1d6 sneak attack, a death attack with a lousy DC, and maybe a spell. How is that front-loaded?
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But, had I a perfectly clean sheet of paper, I wouldn't have a dual-casting-class progression. I'd have done a single progression in two flavors:
The Arcane Theurge: [snip]
The Divine Thaumaturge: [snip]
Awesome ideas! I'd be tempted to use those in place of the Mystic Theurge regardless of what is 'official!'
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Don't know if you guys saw Jason's Livejournal Page. He talks about PrCs. Sounds like maybe he's aware of a lot of the issues.
I sort of hope he doesn't leave any out (as he suggests he may), from the backwards-compatibility point of view. Although it may be that fixing them whilst maintaining backwards-compatibility turns out to be pretty hard.
Awesome ideas! I'd be tempted to use those in place of the Mystic Theurge regardless of what is 'official!'
One logical additional limit on the Divine Thaumaturge would be either a limited number of spells known or a spellbook-type requirement or the like, since full access to the entire sorc/wiz list on the same terms as the entire cleric list gets a bit overwhelming, even at the cost of cleric feature progression and limiting armor selection. (Even then, the DT still outclasses the Arcane Theurge as a wizard-cleric merger with the HP and BAB progression; dialing DT down to the wizard HP/BAB is arguably necessary.)
But the basic idea is, don't trade higher-level progression for lots of lower-level slots, just trade class features for an expanded spell list. That's easier to balance, easier to make playable at all levels, etc.
Best sort of dwarf there is! A dead one!
I've only once had a character that didn't go epic. He died at level 15. Happens to be my all-time favorite character. Dwarf Cleric/Fighter
Repeats the same but replaces dwarf with elf! :-) Damn pointy eared tree hugging sissies.
Don't know if you guys saw Jason's Livejournal Page. He talks about PrCs. Sounds like maybe he's aware of a lot of the issues.I have no idea what he means by the Assassin being front-loaded. You get +1d6 sneak attack, a death attack with a lousy DC, and maybe a spell. How is that front-loaded?
Got me, I'm just passing on the link.
I tend to think the same about the Shadowdancer. It's only front loaded in that the few benefits you get from the class are in the first couple levels. It's not so much front loaded as missing a ton of features. I wish they would lose the fairly weak shadows you get and instead give the class some nicer higher level powers.
ACK. I can't believe he thinks the shadowdancer is anything but underpowered suck. HIPS is the only thing worth even considering the class for. I mean, come on, by the time you qualify for this class, the wizard can teleport across the globe, but getting to shadowjump more than a couple hundred feet a day is overpowered? They need a per round progression badly. We had to talk our party rogue out of it in a 3.5 game I played so she wouldn't completely cripple herself (a lot of which has been fixed by the pathfinder skill changes).
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
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I disagree. Best sort of Dwarf is a Red one!Best sort of dwarf there is! A dead one!
I've only once had a character that didn't go epic. He died at level 15. Happens to be my all-time favorite character. Dwarf Cleric/Fighter
I like the cut of your jib mi' laddo.
Then the second best Dwarf is a dead one. ;)
Although in saying that I am playing an Azerblood in my current PnP game, but that was just because I wanted to buck my usal trend and play:
A Male.
A straight Class(Fighter).
Someone with high CON (21).
A Dwarf(ish) Character.
A fun character with no background (Jock McStrap).
All of these thing go against the general grain of my characters, which tend to be:
Mostly, but not always Female.
Multi-Class.
CON of 10-12 (although My Sorc/Cleric in one of Jal Dorak's PbPs has an 8.
Decidedly non-Dwarf (my least favourite race).
Story driven with fully planned out backgrounds.
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Don't know if you guys saw Jason's Livejournal Page. He talks about PrCs. Sounds like maybe he's aware of a lot of the issues.I have no idea what he means by the Assassin being front-loaded. You get +1d6 sneak attack, a death attack with a lousy DC, and maybe a spell. How is that front-loaded?
Because you essentially get everything the class has to offer in one level, and you can take it without even seriously altering your rogue progression. Honestly, if it were me, I think I'd take it for 3 levels and then hop right back into rogue (or possibly shadowdancer, if I couldn't live without HiPS) - my sneak attack progression doesn't alter, the DC of the death attack is a pretty reasonable 16 or so (8th level DC 16 SoD? Yes please!), I have 3 1st level and 1 2nd level spells a day, improved uncanny dodge and poison use! What's not to like?
I have no idea what he means by the Assassin being front-loaded. You get +1d6 sneak attack, a death attack with a lousy DC, and maybe a spell. How is that front-loaded?Because you essentially get everything the class has to offer in one level, and you can take it without even seriously altering your rogue progression.
Holy crap! You get +5d6 sneak attack, Hide in Plain Sight, and a DC 20+Int death attack in one level?! I must've been reading it wrong! ;-)
Honestly, if it were me, I think I'd take it for 3 levels [...] What's not to like?
The death attack that gets more and more useless with each passing level, for one thing.
To me, the assassin is the best example of a non-front-loaded PrC in the SRD. You get something useful at every level (well, except for level 10, maybe) -- more spells, more sneak attack, higher death attack DC, and eventually Hide in Plain Sight. I thought it was odd that Jason pointed it out as the exact opposite -- a very front-loaded PrC.
I have no idea what he means by the Assassin being front-loaded. You get +1d6 sneak attack, a death attack with a lousy DC, and maybe a spell. How is that front-loaded?
The term "Front-loaded" was developed to indicate a class that is good to dip into for 1-2 levels (depending) and move on with much increased power. For Assassin it is one level. You get:
- +1d6 Sneak Attack (which is "twice" the rate of a Rogue for that single level)
- the Death attack ability
- Poison use
- & two first level spells known (probably 1 to cast).
It isn't hugely overpowered, but it is a perfect one level dip for any rogue who is evil, or can be evil for one level, or can convince their DM that Assassins shouldn't have to be evil. It has no drawbacks, marginal skill requirements that a Ranger can meet easily, and no feat requirements.
Basically it's like Haste was in 3.0 - there's almost no reason for a Rogue to not pick up a level in assassin, just for the extra abilities (not counting Death attack) and the slightly improved sneak attack progression.
Compare with Blackguard: Aura of Evil, Detect Good, Poison Use, and the same # of spells. Sneak attack comes at level 4, no death attack, not even smite good until level 2.
All that said, Rogue even levels aren't "dead" levels anymore - they always get those powerful Talents. So I don't know that this is as much of a problem anymore.
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I would never just pick up one level of assassain, since it hampers your BAB progression. Losing one point of BAB that you never get back is never a good idea if you are already at 3/4 BAB progression and are combat oriented. Three or four levels works pretty good, though.
Then again, the loss of a single point of BAB isn't quite that bad for Rogues. Even at level 20 a Rogue 10/Assassin 10 will have a BAB of +14, which means that he'll have the exact same amount of iterative attacks as a straight Rogue 20 but only have a BAB of one less. Not a terrible loss when you think about all the ways you can increase your attack bonus to be in line with that of a straight Rogue.
Besides, Hide in Plain Sight is almost too good for any Rogue to pass up, since it provides them with more opportunities for sneak attacking.
Besides, Hide in Plain Sight is almost too good for any Rogue to pass up, since it provides them with more opportunities for sneak attacking.
Maybe, but that's not a front-loaded ability, in any case.
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I would never just pick up one level of assassain, since it hampers your BAB progression. Losing one point of BAB that you never get back is never a good idea if you are already at 3/4 BAB progression and are combat oriented. Three or four levels works pretty good, though.Then again, the loss of a single point of BAB isn't quite that bad for Rogues. Even at level 20 a Rogue 10/Assassin 10 will have a BAB of +14, which means that he'll have the exact same amount of iterative attacks as a straight Rogue 20 but only have a BAB of one less. Not a terrible loss when you think about all the ways you can increase your attack bonus to be in line with that of a straight Rogue.
Besides, Hide in Plain Sight is almost too good for any Rogue to pass up, since it provides them with more opportunities for sneak attacking.
It may not be that bad at 20th level or even high levels, but how much time will you spend at those levels if you even get to them? A rogue 5/assassain 1 had lots of goodies, but he also has the BAB of a 6th level sorcerer. He's going to feel that BAB hit for quite some time. He also takes a hit to his fortitude and will saves as well as skill points. He's going to feel that too. +4d6 sneak attack doesn't mean anything if you can't hit the broad side of a barn. Even going with a high level scenario, 8 levels of assassain plus 12 levels of rogue is the best way to go. You lose two off of your death attack DC and a spell or two, but you still get your full BAB, better saves, a rogue special ability and the awesome hide in plain sight.
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With fractional BAB, a dip into Assassin (and various other '+1d6 SA at 1st level' PrCs, like the Guild Thief of Waterdeep) becomes even more of a no-brainer. Given that the class comes with four class abilities right at 1st level, it definitely qualifies for 'front-loaded.'
That being said, I don't think it's an *overpowered* 'front-loaded...'
I wouldn't say the assasin is front loaded. It gains it's sneak attack at the same rate as a rogue (1D6 every two levels), gains poison use (in all honesty, a dex based character won't be failing the check normally anyway, so while this is good, it ain't great) and as for death attack? It's DC is based on the assassins level i.e taking just one level gives you an attack DC 11 + your int. Besides, the assassin doesn't gain any more abilities at first level than a paladin, or a barbarian, or even the new paizo wizard, whats more, these classes gain abilities which are ALL useful.
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I wouldn't say the assasin is front loaded. It gains it's sneak attack at the same rate as a rogue (1D6 every two levels),
The problem with all of these +1d6 SA / 2 levels PrCs is that they gain it at 1st level, which means that the 5th or 7th level Rogue is getting +1d6 ahead of the curve. If this was only an issue with one class, +1d6 isn't that big a deal, but since there are a half-dozen PrCs out there that advance SA at 1st level, and some of them are really easy to qualify for, it just exacerbates how insanely good SA can be, when it works, turning the SA optimized Rogue into either 'too good' for an encounter or 'completely useless' for an encounter, depending on whether he can get off his six +15d6 stabs that round.
Moving Sneak Attack progression to start at 2nd level (not just the Assassin, but all SA progressing PrCs), and leaving the spell use, Death Attack and Poison Use at 1st level seem like enough, although, as noted, the Death Attack is fairly toothless and might deserve a better DC, and perhaps a different mechanic, as it's yet another Save or Die. Making it drop the character to Disabled, might be an option that preserves it's usefulness, while adding a chance that quick-acting allies can stop it from being instantly fatal.
(I don't consider poison use much of a power, for that matter, being something that any Rogue should be able to do.)
I'd like to see the Dragon Disciple converted to a generic "Bloodline Disciple" (of which dragon is one type of bloodline).
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I'd like to see the Dragon Disciple converted to a generic "Bloodline Disciple" (of which dragon is one type of bloodline).
That sounds pretty cool. I'd also maybe like to see some bloodline class variants for the bards (as they are spontaneous casters, too, and we'd need one if they still had access to this new, expanded, Dragon Disciple class).
I wouldn't say the assasin is front loaded. It gains it's sneak attack at the same rate as a rogue (1D6 every two levels),The problem with all of these +1d6 SA / 2 levels PrCs is that they gain it at 1st level, which means that the 5th or 7th level Rogue is getting +1d6 ahead of the curve. If this was only an issue with one class, +1d6 isn't that big a deal, but since there are a half-dozen PrCs out there that advance SA at 1st level, and some of them are really easy to qualify for, it just exacerbates how insanely good SA can be, when it works, turning the SA optimized Rogue into either 'too good' for an encounter or 'completely useless' for an encounter, depending on whether he can get off his six +15d6 stabs that round.
Moving Sneak Attack progression to start at 2nd level (not just the Assassin, but all SA progressing PrCs), and leaving the spell use, Death Attack and Poison Use at 1st level seem like enough, although, as noted, the Death Attack is fairly toothless and might deserve a better DC, and perhaps a different mechanic, as it's yet another Save or Die. Making it drop the character to Disabled, might be an option that preserves it's usefulness, while adding a chance that quick-acting allies can stop it from being instantly fatal.
(I don't consider poison use much of a power, for that matter, being something that any Rogue should be able to do.)
The problem with removing the SA is that it's tied to Death attack, it's needed at first level for non-rogues who enter the class.
Yay for today's preview in the blog!Yeah. Saw it, too. Duelist, eh.
I'm looking forward to the new Dragon (and--dare I hope?--other bloodlines) Disciple.
Cringing at the "Parry" ability (most hated mechanic ever for me), but can't wait for the release.
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Hence the fact that they're still in beta mode! :)Yeah, duelist isn't exactly my favorite PrC, but I like what they've done with it. The abilites are a tad on the wordy and complex side, though.Yay for today's preview in the blog!Yeah. Saw it, too. Duelist, eh.
I didn't mean to sound overly critical. You guys are doing a bang up job with Pathfinder, and I can't wait to see what Jason has done with the rest of the DMG PrC's. I now have a good reason to look forward to next Monday.
The problem with all of these +1d6 SA / 2 levels PrCs is that they gain it at 1st level, which means that the 5th or 7th level Rogue is getting +1d6 ahead of the curve. If this was only an issue with one class, +1d6 isn't that big a deal, but since there are a half-dozen PrCs out there that advance SA at 1st level, and some of them are really easy to qualify for, it just exacerbates how insanely good SA can be, when it works, turning the SA optimized Rogue into either 'too good' for an encounter or 'completely useless' for an encounter, depending on whether he can get off his six +15d6 stabs that round
Umm... take 4 PrCs with SA in the first level and watch your BAB plunge, and your bad saves go through the floor. I guess this is a good argument against fractional BAB/ saves, they enable this kind of brokenness.
Creative Director
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Will the .pdf have all of the DMG-PrC's or were some of them skipped? If so, which ones?
Yeah; as Jason said, we aren't including all of the prestige classes from the SRD. Some we cut because they're covered better by other things we're doing in the book, some we cut because we have other ideas on how to handle them, and some we cut simply because we couldn't fit them all.
And at least one was cut because it was discovered that he was lying on his resume about graduating from Yale.
Are you suggesting that the Loremaster's Skill Focus (any knowledge skill) was really Skill Focus (beer bongs & keg stands)?
Some we cut because they're covered better by other things we're doing in the book, some we cut because we have other ideas on how to handle them, and some we cut simply because we couldn't fit them all.And at least one was cut because it was discovered that he was lying on his resume about graduating from Yale.
So the Arcane Trickster is probably still in since linguistics (forgery) is a class skill (whew). We can also figure Eldritch Knight is still in since there is an iconic with ranks in the class. Obviously duelist is in....
The Assassin and the Blackguard are villain staples - I'd be sorry to see them go. The Horizon Walker is boring, the Red Wizard isn't OGC and the Thaumaturge is not terribly exciting. The Archmage and the Hierophant need sprucing up a bit; as it is, the Archmage has very severe requirements and the Hierophant's restrictions are almost laughable.
I'm kind of interested on what everyone's take for converting skill reqs under pathfinder is for the blackguard. According to the book, you subtract 3 off the reqs, and use that number if it's a class skill, or double it for CC skills. Blackguard has 5 ranks in Hide (or stealth in this case) and 2 ranks in Knowledge (Religion). It's the K(Rel) I'm most interested in hearing everyone's opinion on, since there's an easy fix (just not change it), but it goes against what the Beta states for adjusting as it's primary guideline.
Pro's and Con's of each? Remove it entirely since it doesn't even thematically fit?
The duelist looks really interesting, i am a big fan of finesse fighting characters and this looks like it could work really well for them.
As for wordieness, it didn't seem to bad to me.
It's the K(Rel) I'm most interested in hearing everyone's opinion on, since there's an easy fix (just not change it), but it goes against what the Beta states for adjusting as it's primary guideline.
Most 3.x PrC skill requirements implicitly assumed that early-entry characters were buying the skill with class rank limits and late-entry characters were buying with cross-class rank limits, and the Beta guideline does a reasonably good job of converting those.
However, the 3.x Blackguard Knowledge (Religion) requirement was different; it implicitly assumed early-entry blackguards were buying it to cross-class skill limits instead. So the guideline breaks down for that. In this specific case, the pure-numeric PFRPG conversion would be a requirement for four ranks of Knowledge (Religion), since that's the same number of skill points a fighter/ranger/barbarian aiming for the blackguard class would have had to spend.
It's the K(Rel) I'm most interested in hearing everyone's opinion on, since there's an easy fix (just not change it), but it goes against what the Beta states for adjusting as it's primary guideline.Most 3.x PrC skill requirements implicitly assumed that early-entry characters were buying the skill with class rank limits and late-entry characters were buying with cross-class rank limits, and the Beta guideline does a reasonably good job of converting those.
However, the 3.x Blackguard Knowledge (Religion) requirement was different; it implicitly assumed early-entry blackguards were buying it to cross-class skill limits instead. So the guideline breaks down for that. In this specific case, the pure-numeric PFRPG conversion would be a requirement for four ranks of Knowledge (Religion), since that's the same number of skill points a fighter/ranger/barbarian aiming for the blackguard class would have had to spend.
So four point buy-in should technically function as a single rank class, or 2 ranks CC? I don't think it works right though. It still needs a tweak, but it's that random odd-class out. I've yet to find another one with such stupid pre-reqs.
So four point buy-in should technically function as a single rank class, or 2 ranks CC? I don't think it works right though. It still needs a tweak, but it's that random odd-class out. I've yet to find another one with such stupid pre-reqs.
It doesn't work quite right. I'm not sure there is an easy direct converstion rule anymore. The elimination of 4 ranks at first level and 1/2 ranks makes it hard to differentiate between the two.
I am looking forward to the document with Prestige Classes that is about to be released!