Monks and two weapon fighting


General Discussion (Prerelease)


I've read that monks can use the two-weapon fighting chain of feats if they wish with their unarmed attacks. Is this "officially" true? One thing that's bugging me is that some of the two weapon fighting feats say:

TWO-WEAPON DEFENSE [GENERAL]
Your two-weapon fighting style bolsters your defense as well as your
offense.
Prerequisites: Dex 15, Two-Weapon Fighting.
Benefit: When wielding a double weapon or two weapons (not
including natural weapons or unarmed strikes
), you gain a +1 shield
bonus to your AC.
When you are fighting defensively or using the total defense
action, this shield bonus increases to +2.
Special: A fighter may select Two-Weapon Defense as one of his
fighter bonus feats.

Is this yet another case where the monks unarmed attacks are an exception to the rule?


Takilla wrote:
I've read that monks can use the two-weapon fighting chain of feats if they wish with their unarmed attacks. Is this "officially" true?

It is. From the Official FAQs from WotC:

"The rules don’t come right out and say that a monk can’t use an unarmed strike for an off-hand strike (although the exact wording of the unarmed strike ability suggests otherwise), and no compelling reason why a monk could not do so exists.
When using an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack, the monk suffers all the usual attack penalties from two-weapon fighting and the monk adds only half her Strength bonus (if any) to damage if the off-hand unarmed strike hits."
I myself thought this was not possible (due to poor wording in the rules). Of course, some feats like that you mentioned are obviously sub-optimal with "Monk/Two-Weapon Fighting".


The Wraith wrote:


I myself thought this was not possible (due to poor wording in the rules). Of course, some feats like that you mentioned are obviously sub-optimal with "Monk/Two-Weapon Fighting".

Hmmm...so in other words, while I could take the feat and get the +1 to AC you feel that this would not be as good as some other feats I could take. Care to share? I was thinking of replacing double slice with something defensive and I don't see much else for feats that would help me much. Basically, I'm building a level 6 monk from scratch.

Weapon Focus (unarmed)
Deflect Arrows
Two Weapon Fighting
Stunning Fist
Double Slice (+2 to off-hand attack)
Pain Touch
Improved Disarm

Improved Natural Attack (but not till level 7 ... I'm level 6 now).


If I am not mistaken the monks improved unarmed strike stats that their unarmed attacks are consider weapons. So this should make the qualify to use two weapon fighting.


Takilla wrote:


Hmmm...so in other words, while I could take the feat and get the +1 to AC you feel that this would not be as good as some other feats I could take.

Actually, the feat you mentioned is not suitable for Monks with unarmed strikes (the feat itself states it); a lot of other feats, however (like Improved Two Weapon Fighting) are suitable. The problem is that some feats have a harsh BaB requirement (like Greater Two Weapon Fighting, for a third off-hand attack - requires BaB +11, so a Monk can take it from 15th level), others requires the use of physical weapons (like the aforementioned Two Weapon Defense), and others have some strange requirements that a Monk cannot have at all (like PFRPG feat Shield Master - that requires the use of a SHIELD, something that a Monk would never use...).

A Monk would really rely on Improved Natural Attack to be an effective Two-Weapon Fighting combatant...


Takilla wrote:


Double Slice (+2 to off-hand attack)

Plese note that Double Slice, in the full description, says that you can add your full Stength bonus to the off-hand weapon damage instead of the usual half Strength bonus(in this case, unarmed Monk attack) (page 85). Probably, the brief description in the table is from a precedent version of the feat.

Takilla wrote:


Weapon Focus (unarmed)

I would personally go for a 1st level Monk with 10 Strength and 16-or-more (the more, the merrier) Dexterity for a Two-Weapon fighting build, taking Weapon Finesse instead of Weapon Focus. The feats for this kind of build are really Dexterity-dependent (17 Dexterity for Imp.TWF, 19 Dexterity for Great.TWF), and since Wisdom is essential for a Monk (and Constitution is NEVER a waste), this pretty much leaves Strength with very poor bonuses - and so, better pumping Dexterity and taking Weapon Finesse (since now it CAN be taken at 1st level, because it has no more the silly "BaB +1" requirement that every 1st level Rogue hated so much...)


The problem with monks + two-weapon fighting is that monks aren't that great at hitting opponents anyway. For you're level 6 monk, you're already taking a -1 penalty for flurrying, so putting an additional -2 penalty on for two-weapon fighting is tough for a class that only has medium BAB.


hogarth wrote:
The problem with monks + two-weapon fighting is that monks aren't that great at hitting opponents anyway. For you're level 6 monk, you're already taking a -1 penalty for flurrying, so putting an additional -2 penalty on for two-weapon fighting is tough for a class that only has medium BAB.

True, but for taking out lower AC foes, and disarming and such, I think it could allow good flexibility. Against higher AC foes, I guess I'll just try to stun them and let other people wail away.


The Wraith wrote:
Takilla wrote:


Double Slice (+2 to off-hand attack)

Plese note that Double Slice, in the full description, says that you can add your full Stength bonus to the off-hand weapon damage instead of the usual half Strength bonus(in this case, unarmed Monk attack) (page 85). Probably, the brief description in the table is from a precedent version of the feat.

Takilla wrote:


Weapon Focus (unarmed)
I would personally go for a 1st level Monk with 10 Strength and 16-or-more (the more, the merrier) Dexterity for a Two-Weapon fighting build, taking Weapon Finesse instead of Weapon Focus. The feats for this kind of build are really Dexterity-dependent (17 Dexterity for Imp.TWF, 19 Dexterity for Great.TWF), and since Wisdom is essential for a Monk (and Constitution is NEVER a waste), this pretty much leaves Strength with very poor bonuses - and so, better pumping Dexterity and taking Weapon Finesse (since now it CAN be taken at 1st level, because it has no more the silly "BaB +1" requirement that every 1st level Rogue hated so much...)

Well, I rolled really well, so I do have 16 for all the physical stats and 19 for wis ... otherwise I would have.

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