i hope to give some advice to DMs how to deal with a problem like this cause it happens far too much in the games i have seen/been in.
I don't quite understand -- are you asking for advice, or are you offering advice?
Not about the build? How many feats is he actually using? How many of them are bonus feats? What is going on there?
But as far as dealing with it, assuming you approve the build, rethink the encounters you're sending at them. Since he's a bit more powerful than most characters, make 2 mini encounters for each encounter. Put in a challenge for him and add some minion-eque other guys for the other PCs to deal with that are build more for their own power level. I know it won't always work out for you to do something like this, but it's worth a shot in a lot of cases.
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Let him know this is the only time that build will be allowed. Then proceed to tell him no punches will be pulled against his character. Also let him know all future builds will be pre-approved by you.
Make sure he is considered the greatest threat by opponents, as he is, and let him have it.
Wait, I just noticed that there were too many feats...how did he get 4 feats? and then added 2 substitutions?
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I want to help some DMs deal with problem PCs that are brought into their games here, look at this build:
1st-Level dragonborn Barbarian with 5 starting feats...
1. As a DM would you allow this in a 1st-Level game if the rest of the party was not built with the same level power.
2. As players how would you feel if the PC overshadows combat and makes the CR1 encounters a cakewalk?
3. If a DM didn't see [the problems here until play began] how do you solve the problem of one PC being more powerful than the rest?
4. If the player doesn't see anything wrong with his PC even when he is taking all the fun out of combat, how do you deal with that?
When I run a camapign as a Dungeon Master, I try to look over everybody's characters ahead of time, and I would notice that this build has 3 or 4 extra feats. So, I'd ask the player to make the character a legal 1st-Level build.
If I were a player, I'd ask the DM for four extra feats, which I'd take from all manner of odd splatbooks and "web enhancements" (which is shorthand for "stuff the editors took out").
If play had already begun, I'd, again, ask the player to either (a) drop some of the feats and make the character legal, or else (b) accept a level adjustment penalty on experience (on the "two feats are about as good as one level" paradigm, he'd have a +2 LA). That's how the system is designed to react to a PC who's substantially better than the rest of the party.
How do I deal with a player who doesn't want to accept an experience penalty for an illegal character? By inviting him to leave the game.
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THIS TOPIC IS NOT ABOUT THE BUILD IN QUESTION, IT IS ABOUT HOW DMS WOULD DEAL WITH THE PROBLEMS THIS BUILD MAY OR MAYNOT BRING IN TO THE GAME.
Don't allow the build, or more specifically don't allow certain aspects of the build or take a closer look at the feats.
Ex. Nowhere in Prehensile Tail does it say that it offers an "extra" attack, all it allows you to do is to use the tail as a potential hand replacement (say you have a sword and shield and then a dagger in the tail hand) and allows the multiweapon fighting negs to applied to that "hand" if you have the feat. It doesn't allow an extra attack...just serves as a potenetial replacement hand.
So this barbarian monstrosity only gets two attacks, not three with manufactured weapons. Again, if you are talking about Multiattack from the MM it only applies to natural attacks (claws, tail and bite) which for a humanoid sized character would be pretty insignificant (also considering negs for the to hit).
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[Threadjack: Way off topic]
Attn: Chris Mortika
Hey, I've got a quick question. In your professional opinion as a writer for the ACT Math, which college entrance exam: Math Section, is more dificult, ACT or SAT? Or, more importantly, what are the differences in content?
I know the SAT quite well but I am unsure of the ACT Math.
PS: By the way, how's it goin' and all that other stuff? Been busy here; I like the new career as HS Dean and college advisor. I don't miss teaching Undergrads at all (well, maybe a little).
-W. E. Ray
[/Threadjack]
If you have one guy who's absolutely dead set on playing something like that, I'd suggest to him that he play that character in a high-powered campaign, and talk to the other players about running a one-off or short high-powered campaign. Then work with the other guys to create equally powerful characters.
I had somebody recently who wanted to play something that silly in a game I was going to run - so I decided to help one of the other players make a multi-weapon fighting thri-keen ranger with rogue levels for sneak attack. The campaign ended up not happening for other reasons, though.
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1.now as a DM would you allow this in a 1st lvl game(he is first lvl) if the rest of the party was not built with the same level power.
THIS TOPIC IS NOT ABOUT THE BUILD IN QUESTION, IT IS ABOUT HOW DMS WOULD DEAL WITH THE PROBLEMS THIS BUILD MAY OR MAYNOT BRING IN TO THE GAME.
Well, first I'd point out that the character wasn't built in accordance with my campaign's character creation rules, so the player should read those and build another character.
If you set expectations up front, that should be most of the battle won.
The problem with trying to offer general advice that will help in all cases is that every case is different. Are the players and GM friends outside the game? Is the game held at this player's house? How old are the players? Could the group carry on with one player fewer? Are the rest of the party badly sub-optimal to the extent that there would be an instant TPK without this guy? etc.
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1.now as a DM would you allow this in a 1st lvl game(he is first lvl) if the rest of the party was not built with the same level power.
No. Everybody starts with Core. Anything outside of core requires DM permission.
That applies whether it's me DMing or one of my friends, as they have years of experience with me showing up with a six-pack of characters and saying, 'No.,' 'No.,' 'Hell no.' and finally, 'Maybe, but lose the Dire Hawk animal companion.'
2. as players how do would u feel If the PC overshadows combat and makes the CR1 encounters a cakewalk?
I personally don't much care, as I don't guage my characters utility by his DPS, preferring spellcasters who use spells like Grease, Color Spray and Glitterdust. If CR 1 encounters are a cakewalk, cool, we'll be facing CR 2 ones that much sooner.
In 2nd edition, we occasionally ran a party where *everyone* was a Minotaur, Ogre, Wemic, Xixchil, etc. I have a high tolerance for whacky.
3. IF as DM you didnt see this and now you do how do you solve the problem of one PC being more powerful then rest?
Discuss it with the other players without the ubercharacters player present, asking the following questions;
1) is this guy's uberbuild bugging you at all?
1a) if yes, then do you want me to require him to tone it down?
1b) do you want a chance to rebuild your characters to this sort of level and play a more 'epic fantasy' type game?
Depending on the other players thoughts on stuff like that (usually conducted over email during the week), I would either tell him that he has to make a new character if he wants to keep playing, one that doesn't use anything from splatbooks, *or* that his character inspired everyone else, and we are taking next week for everyone to sit around and make similarly over-the-top characters.
4. if the PLAYER doesnt see anything wrong with his PC even when he is taking all the fun out of combat how do you deal with that?
If he's making the game un-fun for the other players, I'd do the same thing I'd do if he was doing something else to make the game un-fun for other players, tell him that this isn't working. I'd let him know this was a group decision, and wish him luck finding another group that is into that style of play, or recommend games that are inherently more accepting of 'power-fantasy' like superhero games.
Drama is tiresome. I try to avoid it.
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I think the general idea is to share ideas and advice to give to GMs who find themselves in a game with an unexpectedly overpowerful PC.
I would compliment the player on finding an amazing build, on developing it and having such unique ideas.
Then explain that while the character is truly amazing, and that you had indeed previously approved the character, upon reflection and experience the player needs to make another character.
I would continue to explain that the very nature and power of the character is far too superior to the other characters in the game. This is causing some players to not enjoy the game as much as they should. Since the purpose of playing is for everyone to have fun, I would say, surely you would not want to ruin someone else's enjoyment of the game any more than you would want them to overshadow you.
Emphasize how much you appreciate the time and imagination it took to create such an amazing character. You might empathize with the player over the loss of the character. But stress that in the end it will make for a better, more balanced and fun game for everyone.
And if that doesn't work, kick his ass out of the game!
I think a lot of people have already mentioned this but:
1) 5 feats? Really? Just say no.
2) In the future, consider putting restrictions on books. In all my games I only allow the core books (including Pathfinder RPG of course). Everything else is subject to my approval. And I only approve feats/classes/skils/etc individually, meaning it's not a blank check to take whatever from the book. My general philosophy is: you don't try and break my game, and I won't try and break your character.
3) The character can't be indestructible. If there is anything I learned from watching players try and make maxed out characters is that there is always a weakness - bad ref save, bad fort save, bad touch AC. Then just make a equally badass villain that can go after him - like the BBEG and his minions. Have the BBEG have a maximized ray of enfeeblement. He won't be a very good fighter then.
Good luck!
1.now as a DM would you allow this in a 1st lvl game(he is first lvl) if the rest of the party was not built with the same level power.2. as players how do would u feel If the PC overshadows combat and makes the CR1 encounters a cakewalk?
3. IF as DM you didnt see this and now you do how do you solve the problem of one PC being more powerful then rest?
4. if the PLAYER doesnt see anything wrong with his PC even when he is taking all the fun out of combat how do you deal with that?
THIS TOPIC IS NOT ABOUT THE BUILD IN QUESTION, IT IS ABOUT HOW DMS WOULD DEAL WITH THE PROBLEMS THIS BUILD MAY OR MAYNOT BRING IN TO THE GAME.
False premise. It absolutely is about the build in question. the dm has final say on everything. if the player won't play within the framework of the game, then he doesn't play. That eliminates question 1 (the answer is no, you dont allow it if it doesn't fit in your game) and 2 (not an issue, the build is disallowed).
#3, if you didn't see this coming, you may want to reevaluate why you are allowing so many non-core builds. because if this one slipped by, you clearly don't understand all of what you are bringing into the game and how to run a group that has all that open to them. it's unlikely it can be fixed without having the characters start over. it's not fair, but it's the DM's fault for not paying attention or not understanding what he got the group into. suck it up, admit you made a mistake, and move on.
#4, if the player can't see how he's affecting the group and ruining all their fun - then have him switch characters for a session with one of the other players. let him feel what they feel in battle. if he still doesn't get it - he never will. and that means he will not fit in the group.
it's the DM's job to reign in this sort of thing at the beginning. I actually did run a campaign where I allowed too much stuff for a couple characters and they overshadowed the rest of the group in combat. how did i deal with it? a couple ways. (this was 2nd Ed days, btw)
1)split groups of monsters. Send some toughies in with some chaff for everyone else to fight. the big guys took on the tough ones, the supporting characters handled the less tough. everyone contributed that way, and it was all tailored to their abilities.
2)have encounters that strike at the powerful characters weaknesses so that they are not the most effective in the fight. you can't do this every time, it's not fair, but once in while its good to take them down a peg.
3)risk a power creep by throwing in a couple cool magic items that the powerful guys can't use. not too many though. or have NPCs that interact strongly with the non-powerful members, or have storylines that center around the other players and their class abilities to let them shine.
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3) The character can't be indestructible. If there is anything I learned from watching players try and make maxed out characters is that there is always a weakness ...
Good luck!
Indeed, Gnome-eater, the OP indicated that he'd paid for extra feats with two "Character Flaws" from Unearthed Arcana.
So, upon some reflection, I have two concerns about character like this one, and some more sober advice.
Concern 1 -- This character isn't too powerful. It's a two-weapon fighter (the tail doesn't "count as a hand" for Multi-Weapon fighting, which specifies hands, not limbs) with pounce, but without the Barbarian's fast movement. It has good toe-to-toe combat stats (it has to have 13 Dex, and it ought to have a decent Str). That's actually not too bad.
But the Barbarian is too lop-sided. It's lagging behind almost every other character in skills (it probably has poor Intelligence, and loses the human bonus skill points). If the adventures have lots of traps and puzzles, or lots of rough terrain and climbing, or a variety of other situations, the one-trick pony is hapless. And, hey, those two flaws are going to cripple the character under common circumstances.
Concern 2 -- I know that some people roll their eyes at this concern, but several of those feats and alternate class features carry role-playing consequences. The silverbrow race gives Disguise as a class skill because they're hunted, and they need to be good at hiding in other cultures. The character's devoted himself to the lion totem in ways that get it considered a "divine bard". That ought to have consequences.
This character, as presented by the OP, is a hodge-podge of different ties and commitments.
I would expect a good DM to present the player with interesting choices and predicaments, to help make sense of that background
Advice -- I'm not king of the world, and my campaign style isn't for everybody. I wouldn't want that character, presented as it is, in my campaign, and I'd wager that I'm in the majority, but , hell, maybe the player has read the DM right and it's a wacky campaign for twinked-out, lop-sided, characters.
My advice is broader: as with any campaign, every player ought to meet the expectations of the other players and the DM.
In my experience, core + splat = minor power flux. But every extra splatbook usually seems to be a multiplier rather than addition to power, ie Core + splat x splat x spalt x splat = HOLY PELOR HOW MUCH DAMAGE?!?!
For instance: Sorceror, PHB2 Variant (Quick Metamagic), + Force Missle Mage x Argent Savant x Spell Matrix x Repeating Spell x Twin Spell x Quicken Spell = At 19th level, 600 points of Magic Missle damage that CAN break through the Shield spell on round 1, followed by over 900 on round 2. Age of Worms. Downed Kyuss in 3 rounds thanks to his damage, and the DM had boosted Kyuss severely.
As for dealing with potentially Overpowered characters (because you really only know it after the fact) I would say enforce the role-playing aspect, as others have said, and exploit weaknesses, especially flaws.
Example: In my current Shackled City game, the raptoran warlock took a sip of the Amaranth Elixer, and is now stronger than the human trip build monk and the dwarven knight. He's been playing up the wisdom loss and getting into melee more often and generally making poor choices, but I've been taking some care to call on him first for spot/listen checks (even if I have the whole party make them, I ask him for his result first). He notices the effect, and despite enjoying the melee chaos, I have noted he debates whether he should continue partaking the elixer, due to the drawbacks.
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Well, first I'd point out that the character wasn't built in accordance with my campaign's character creation rules, so the player should read those and build another character.
If you set expectations up front, that should be most of the battle won.
That is what I do.
And the effect I find it has.
Hmmm...the OP's original post is lacking some crucial detail: what flaws has uber barb taken? To which my first thought as DM would be: how can I exploit them?
It's already been shown that the Prehensile Tail feat would not get you an extra weapon attack. It would be better if the character picked up something that would give him a tail slap attack instead.
In my campaign my wife started out at first level playing a red dragon monster class from Dragon Magazine. She took a flaw and picked up Multiattack and Light Armor Proficiency. At first level her Str 18 red dragon had a bite, 2 claws, and two wing attacks. That was pretty impressive right up until the group started running into animated stone statues with hardness 8.
As an aside, the red dragon is now 12th level and the group ran into 2 hezrous which have DR 10/good. Several of the party members have sacred scabbards or oils of bless weapon but the dragon had nothing that could bypass the DR. She scored a grand total of 2 hp worth of damage over several rounds before tossing out a Maximized fire breath for 30 points.
No matter how uber you are someone else is uberer.
I was actually referring to [insert your favorite Evil DM's name here]. Whatever the players come up with a good DM takes it, twists it, and turns it against them. With a smile.
Well, i wont get into the current angle of the debate, but i`ll discuss a few ideas on how to run the game when such a character is already present.
In my experience, how such a character works out is based upon the other party members. In this case, we don't know much about them, but it is entirely possible that they too are pretty awesome folks.
The main worry comes when the rest of the party just don't compare in terms of power. In those cases, the GM tends to smash other players flat by calling out the big guns to take on the "power player". This leads to problems and is effectively like the player using the other, weaker characters, like some sort of moral defence against the gm evening the odds.
However, there are ways around this.
1. The party split.
Making situations where the party is forced to split up can allow balance. The tough character can be sent off to do the bigger, badder end of the encounter and the rest of the party can deal with things on their own terms. It's a good test of the player in question, if he is abusive, then he will do his best to keep with the party. If, however, he enjoys a challenge, he will rise to the occasion and go out to be a big damn hero.
2. Roleplay consequence.
Suggested by posters above, so not my idea here, but worth putting in again. As such, these kinds of characters tend to be roleplay freaks with downsides (hunted, prejudice etc) that the build doesnt initially make obvious. A wise GM plays up on these and some players who make these characters do enjoy that, so its not all a gm invoked response. When the character finds it has to sleep outside the castle, or that the local human folk attack it on sight, then the hint is pretty quickly given, especially with monster characters, that their power comes at a price.
3. Battle Magnet.
When one character is doing all the fighting, then it tends to be the case that the fighting comes to the character, in large amounts. The player may well like the fact that he is in the thick of it, being an awesome combattant, so a good GM should give him what he wants. Most monsters and bad folk will sensibly throw themselves at the larger threat, so the weaker characters can be shielded by its presence. Massed troops are the natural counter to a multiple attacks player with high damage capacity. Simply use enough cannon fodder to keep him busy.
4. Freeform Campaign.
When tailoring encounters for the players proves too hard, simply create your world and let the players choose where they go. This way they will find their natural power niche. If the characters are powerful enough to take on monsters many levels beyond them, then let them go do so. The challenge here is character motivation. Insist that the powerful character has an end goal and that they must work towards it. If they simply expect you to give them things to do, then don't. Anyone making an awesome epic hero has a duty to use it to make a difference to the campaign world by doing something noteworthy. Let them choose what that is and make it as hard as you think it should be.
5. The Character Equal.
Be sure to throw in the occasional monster or foe that is created as a mirror image of the player character, or better. So long as the player remains the primary combattant, then such a foe will naturally end up fighting him. This works especially well when the foe has a reason to fight that character, allowing them to call the character out for a challenge. Alternatively, go down the buffy route of "the big bad", where the powerful character has a responsibility to fight the most horrendous monsters when they come along. With great power comes great responsbility, after all.
6. Emphasise alternate threats.
Specialist uber characters usually shine in one area and are a big let down everywhere else. It's a test of a gm's creativity and resolve, with the player gambling on the fact that the gm uses only one sort of threat, ie combat. So, traps, dangerous terrain, social encounters, creatures that are only affected by magic and so on, all become viable ways to balance things out. Really, a good game should include these anyway, so the presence of such a character can be a sign that your games are becoming very reliant on one encounter type, change is needed.
7. Praise the character and player.
Players often make these sorts of characters because they want attention and recognition. Often, i have found, such players become less of a problem when the gm makes a point of praising them and offering them rp rewards. If the local city has an arena, then offer the character the chance to become a famous arena champion. Even freakish half ogres and worse can overcome local prejudice by taking on such status in a community. He could become a tavern bouncer or any other manner of significant rp member of the community where his prowess can bring positive rewards. Encourage the character to interact with its family or community, especially if it is a monster based character - think about Worf, the Klingon, and how Star Trek dealt with him.
8. Put in cool, but awkward, items.
I added this one in as an edit, since it occured to me after i made the post. Anyway, such uber characters tend to be unable or unwilling to use certain item types. They usually choose the largest, most intimidating thing around and they are often short of feats that would allow them to use alternatives. Be sure to add in rewards that are very cool, but that are tailored for the other party members. Crystal balls, staves, daggers, clumsy items that have lowered damage but that cast cool spells etc. These items can redress the balance in power terms or can simply remind the other players that you are thinking of them too. You can use alignment specific, or deity specific items to do the same thing, especially where the power player has ignored such game elements. This may also motivate the troublesome player to learn crafting or to go on specific ventures to look for particular items, thus giving you a means of control over him.
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Words of caution.
I`ve taken over a few games where bad players have forced another gm to stop running. I find that i can usually set things right for a time, but that a truly dedicated troublemaker can only be dealt with by getting kicked out or having their character retired.
The trick is to spot the players who are beyond help and those who are simply attention starved or weak and who can be "steered right". There are some players who deliberately sabotage games and i know at least one who boasts that he does this. Those characters you must catch before their character even enters play, otherwise it is too late.
Weaker players, who make these uber characters to counter their lack of rp confidence, can be managed and can have a rewarding game for all involved. The trick is to learn what they want and to give it to them in such a manner that the game is not messed up. That can be hard and can require a lot of invested time. It is worth it, however.
1.now as a DM would you allow this in a 1st lvl game(he is first lvl) if the rest of the party was not built with the same level power.
2. as players how do would u feel If the PC overshadows combat and makes the CR1 encounters a cakewalk?
3. IF as DM you didnt see this and now you do how do you solve the problem of one PC being more powerful then rest?
4. if the PLAYER doesnt see anything wrong with his PC even when he is taking all the fun out of combat how do you deal with that?
- I reserve the right to approve all non-Core material in my game. In this case I'd probably disallow the lion totem alternate class feature (since I don't think it's a reasonable trade-off for Fast Movement). Also, I don't use flaws in my games, but if all of my players asked to have two free feats (say), I'd consider it. In general, though, I don't enforce an overall power level between PCs. If one wants to play a weaker character and one wants to play a stronger character, that's up to them; I give them the same building blocks.
- If another player's PC were occupying the same niche as my PC and is doing a much better job, I'd be disappointed, I guess. But I haven't had that happen.
- If a player started abusing a power in a way I didn't anticipate, I'd probably discuss making a house rule to make the ability less abusive. I generally look at non-Core stuff pretty closely before allowing it, though. I also have a pre-prepared list of house rules that I use (e.g. some changes to Divine Metamagic, Gate, Dispel Psionics, etc.).
- It hasn't happened to me so far, but I'd talk about the issue as a group, I guess.
That was great advice, Thed. In all seriousness, it needs a wider audience.
Indeed. Very well thought out. It would've been worthy of space in Dragon.
I think that it's worth noting that I would allow this build into my campaign (minus Prehensile Tail). The number of low-level things that I as a DM could do to mess with this guy is almost too long to list: caltrops, tanglefoot bags, pits, columns, stairs, platforms, grease spells, archers w/ potions of levitation, difficult terrain, etc.
oh yeah...and nets.
Well, i`m glad people think it's useful. Much of what i wrote had been said by others, of course, i just packaged it up, really )
I love a bit of a ramble, sign of my roleplaying age methinks.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Too-powerful PC's are fun and easy to deal with: let them make it, and then put an exp penalty on them. And if they have baffled you beyond belief, KILL THEM FAST.
Jimmy, I sense your frustration.
The problem I see with your advice is that it offers no options for the player. If you designed a character that your DM thought was overly powerful, you're recommending that she should penalize your character, or kill it.
How about asking you to fix it?
1.now as a DM would you allow this in a 1st lvl game(he is first lvl) if the rest of the party was not built with the same level power.
I would remind the player that as SUCH a weirdo, or any similar weirdness, he would not be able to go into villages and towns without a lynch mob forming. He might get away with slinking about the shadows and sewers of an urban center. Food, magic, equipment... all not available to him unless he has the ability to make them himself.
Also, not a valid build.
Also, you're required to buy the DM a copy of any weird splatbook you end up using.
2. as players how do would u feel If the PC overshadows combat and makes the CR1 encounters a cakewalk?
As a player, if another player twinked out his character outside the rules like this, I would ask the DM to audit this little cheater's sheet. If the DM found said nonsense legal, I would assume that adding extra feats was house-ruled now and work under the new rule-set.
3. IF as DM you didnt see this and now you do how do you solve the problem of one PC being more powerful then rest?
Rain of toads?
More seriously, the player loses those feats he does not qualify for.
4. if the PLAYER doesnt see anything wrong with his PC even when he is taking all the fun out of combat how do you deal with that?
I'd ask the other players if they see anything wrong with that. If those players have a spine, they will object to the cheating and spotlight-hogging.
But let's suppose that the build's legal AND that this silliness passes for at least semi-normal and doesn't invoke the severe RP-penalties that it would in 90 percent of campaigns. I'd deal with it through giving magic items tailored to boost the other PCs' abilities, smart BBEGals that anticipate lizard boy's tactics, try a charm or two, and start emphasizing the RP with lizard boy. With so many resources tied up into getting extra attacks, I'm guessing that he's helpless in the face of skill challenges.