To what extent is it that important to track rage duration? Does it add so much to the game? My experience with Barbarians is limited, but maybe you guys can tell me.
If duration is trivial, than rage points could serve rage powers only (and maybe initiate rage).
This would cut much of the bookkeeping for barbarians...
'findel
To what extent is it that important to track rage duration? Does it add so much to the game? My experience with Barbarians is limited, but maybe you guys can tell me.
If duration is trivial, than rage points could serve rage powers only (and maybe initiate rage).
This would cut much of the bookkeeping for barbarians...
'findel
Well for one, rage points is the ONLY bookkeeping a Barbarian has. For another, keeping track of the duration of rage is important because it isn't a per encounter power, the Barbarian is limited by how long he can do this, and there is a cost in fatigue and loss of hit points at the end of it.
If you don't track these things, the Barbarian becomes too powerful. It isn't difficult to track. In fact it is still easier than any spellcaster class.
The Fatigue after Rage is the main reason this needs to be tracked.
And the Rage Powers themselves MAJORLY increase the Fatigue time as well...
I like this effect, it makes sense if the Barbarian is somehow "over-channeling" his energies, to be Fatigued afterward, and it gives more of a "rhythm" to the game, where abilities have long term & short term, positive and negative effects. If your DM KNOWS nothing special is happening after some random Wilderness encounter is over, then you DON'T have to count up your Rage Points you used to determine your rage, you can just assume the Fatigue wears off when it does.
Well for one, rage points is the ONLY bookkeeping a Barbarian has.
I agree, but there are many arguments in favor of diminishing the barbarian's bookkeeping. When you intend to play a spellcaster, you can expect and accept that there will be bookkeeping involved. It has been so since 1st edition. When you play a martial character, bookkeeping comes less expected. From this statement comes the whole debate over rage points...
For another, keeping track of the duration of rage is important because it isn't a per encounter power, the Barbarian is limited by how long he can do this, and there is a cost in fatigue and loss of hit points at the end of it.If you don't track these things, the Barbarian becomes too powerful.
But does it really become too powerful? I have seen very few 3.5 fights where the barbarian's rage ran off. Under the proposed rage point system, that is even less likely to happen unless the player is unwise about the way power points are spent. As a matter of fact, I've seen more fights where the barbarian had to voluntarily end rage or was charmed/commanded/calmed out of rage.
Again, I admit that my experience with barbarians is limited and your comments are appreciated.
It isn't difficult to track. In fact it is still easier than any spellcaster class.
But due respect, that is besides the point...
The Fatigue after Rage is the main reason this needs to be tracked.
And the Rage Powers themselves MAJORLY increase the Fatigue time as well...I like this effect, it makes sense if the Barbarian is somehow "over-channeling" his energies, to be Fatigued afterward, and it gives more of a "rhythm" to the game, where abilities have long term & short term, positive and negative effects. If your DM KNOWS nothing special is happening after some random Wilderness encounter is over, then you DON'T have to count up your Rage Points you used to determine your rage, you can just assume the Fatigue wears off when it does.
But even if rage was lasting for the encounter, there is no reason why the fatigued after rage condition should go away. Rage points spent for rage power could still affect the fatigues time afterward.
I have seen very few 3.5 fights where the barbarian's rage ran off.
Ummm...
3.5 Rage lasts the duration of the encounter, so it would never "run off".If you used all your Encounters/Day, then you couldn't enter it again in the first place....
But even if rage was lasting for the encounter, there is no reason why the fatigued after rage condition should go away. Rage points spent for rage power could still affect the fatigues time afterward.
Right, and in 3.5 everyone counted Rounds of Rage, because that determined how long the Fatigue lasts.
This is "backwards compatibility" :-) Plain Rage NOT causing Fatigue (but only Rage POWERS, as you suggest...???) is NOT "backwards compatible"Rage Points are NO MORE BOOK KEEPING than just Raging for a longer amount of time would be.
And like I said, if you use chips, you only need to be able to COUNT, you don't even need to add/subtract anything.
3.5 Rage lasts the duration of the encounter, so it would never "run off".
If you used all your Encounters/Day, then you couldn't enter it again in the first place....
Rage in 3.5 lasted (improved)CON bonus + 3 rounds. You could run off, but I've seen it happen only once or twice.
This is "backwards compatibility" :-)
Backwards compatibility already goes a long way between 3.5 and Pathfinder.
Plain Rage NOT causing Fatigue (but only Rage POWERS, as you suggest...???) is NOT "backwards compatible"
What I suggest is that Rage Points are used to initiate rage and fuel rage powers only. The "basic rage" sustains itself until the barbarian is forced to end rage or voluntarily do so. If you mess around with your rage points, you wont be able to enter rage once the big fight comes and even if you can, you may be low on rage powers.
Once rage is ended for a reason or another, you are fatigued. There should not be any way around it before Tireless Rage.
Rage Points are NO MORE BOOK KEEPING than just Raging for a longer amount of time would be.
And like I said, if you use chips, you only need to be able to COUNT up to the cost of your highest Power,
you don't even need to add/subtract anything.
You've found a way to make this work for you. Good for you! (and I mean that, no sarcasm here) But some people are still bothered by the bookkeeping that the barbarian now involves. And these people can count... even without tokens.
As I said, whether it is difficult or not isn't the issue.
Once rage is ended for a reason or another, you are fatigued. There should not be any way around it before Tireless Rage.
Right. But per 3.5 you still track Rounds of Rage to determine the length of Fatigue, right?
That's the core "consequence" for Rage, that gives the Barbarians "down time" based on how long he Rages for.You've found a way to make this work for you. Good for you! (and I mean that, no sarcasm here) But some people are still bothered by the bookkeeping that the barbarian now involves. And these people can count... even without tokens.
As I said, whether it is difficult or not isn't the issue.
Sure, and I 100% think it would also help most people .
I think it should be explicitly recommended in the text, for that reason. My point is, if 3.5 previously required you to track Rounds of Rage AND Rage Usages/Day, the (increased) "book-keeping the Barbarian now involves" doesn't really hold up at all.I just repeat this because most complaints I've seen inevitably base their opposition on claims it is more difficult/complicated. If you're not claiming it is more difficult/complicated, I'm not sure what basis you are critiquing it on... If you can't demonstrate a relative lack compared to other options , while there's plenty of reasons/ benefits I've mentioned that are facilitated by the Rage Point/Power system as is, I'm not sure what the substance of your argument is...???
I just repeat this because most complaints I've seen inevitably base their opposition on claims it is more difficult/complicated. If you're not claiming it is more difficult/complicated, I'm not sure what basis you are critiquing it on... If you can't demonstrate a relative lack compared to other options , while there's plenty of reasons/ benefits I've mentioned that are facilitated by the Rage Point/Power system as is, I'm not sure what the substance of your argument is...???
Well, I do believe it is MORE complex than 3.5, yet I don't think it is THAT complicated altogether. At least not for a PC, but I find it a bit to much when you have to improvise a bunch of barbarian NPCs.
however...
I do critique the present proposed system for what I feel is an unnecessary complexity. A complexity that is, IMHO, unlike the feel of the barbarian. I do not think that barbarians have to be stupid and mindless, nor do I think that a stupid and mindless character should have to be played stupidly and mindlessly. Yet, I feel that the careful approach of a point-system, a precise (yet versatile, I'll give you that) micromanagement mechanic of how to plan a barbarian's rage, is contradictory to what the rage should be. In simple word, their is a lot of "control" for something that (I personally feel) should be borderline out-of-control.
Extra options (ie. rage powers) are an interesting concept, but I would like to see more similitude and symmetry between the barbarian's rage and the paladin's auras for example. This would consolidate the system (as a whole) and eliminate/consolidate sub-systems. This could also create more solid foundations for new classes to be based on, and new powers to be created in par with the other classes.
If we eliminate the need to track rounds of rage, then use/day or pool of point becomes a matter of semantics, and we can use a similar pattern already used by other classes.
This leaves the issue of the duration of the resulting fatigue unaddressed, but this may be easily resolved without having recourse on the duration of the rage itself. I did not run into a situation where the duration of the fatigued condition has been crucial to the point where the difference between a calculated amount (lets say 8 rounds) would have made a significant difference from a rough approximation(let say 10 rounds).
Once again, my experience with barbarians is limited, so your input on the matter is welcome.
'findel
If we eliminate the need to track rounds of rage, then use/day or pool of point becomes a matter of semantics, and we can use a similar pattern already used by other classes.
This leaves the issue of the duration of the resulting fatigue unaddressed, but this may be easily resolved without having recourse on the duration of the rage itself. I did not run into a situation where the duration of the fatigued condition has been crucial to the point where the difference between a calculated amount (lets say 8 rounds) would have made a significant difference from a rough approximation(let say 10 rounds).
I'm not sure if you were aware that the 3.5 Barbarian worked like that, which is important, just because this not a "new" complexity or book-keeping, it is how the Barbarian has always been. If you disconnect length of Rage from length of Fatigue, then sure, I could see all the Powers and everything moving in another direction, but if that core feature of 3.5's Barbarian is remaining, it seems less complex to integrate the new Powers, etc, WITH it than have their own system on TOP of it.
Here's some effects I find from Rage:
Rage for 1-3 rounds (most battles, really): The Barbarian is Fatigued for 2-6 rounds afterwards (12-36 seconds). This is about an average time to search a room and possibly run into the next encounter. As a DM, you could even stage another assault while the Barbarian is still Fatigued, but time it so the Barbarian will loose their Fatigue 2 or so rounds into the new battle, creating an interesting timing/tension.
Rage for 6+ rounds (fewer battles, but not uncommon, esp. with large numbers of opponents or spacing that requires extra movement, etc):
The Barbarian will be fatigued 12+ (A minute and upward). He cannot run during this time. Many situations will make the player continue by necessity, but the player will defintely feel the strain. Not to be overdone, but this creates a much richer feel than 1-dimensional powers that are on/off, no consequences. Note that heavy use of Rage Powers QUICKLY increases the Fatigue Length.
I like how some people feel some Rage Powers are "overpowered" (while being expensive). Anybody who tries using these non-stop will be Fatigued for quite a stretch after (Making Roused Anger desirable - but which prevents you from gaining other powers). Weakening them to be "always on" or "free per Rage" implies there is no "consequence" of using these "Nova" powers, which reduces their depth. I love that the Barb. could become some super-natural killing machine, single-handedly winning, yet so winded after, that the "weaker" 2nd tier combatants then shine if another situation then appears.
|
It's not just more work for the players, it's more work for the DM. Not only now will he need to track Rage points for any barbarian NPCs, he's going to actually have to know all the rage powers.
The switch to PRPG is a lot rougher on DMs than it is on players who only need to learn one class's changes.
I'm all for 'the less change the better'.
But per 3.5 you still track Rounds of Rage to determine the length of Fatigue, right?
No:
At the end of the rage, the barbarian loses the rage modifiers and restrictions and becomes fatigued (–2 penalty to Strength, –2 penalty to Dexterity, can’t charge or run) for the duration of the current encounter (unless he is a 17th-level barbarian, at which point this limitation no longer applies; see below).
The Rage Points system causes the Barbarian's player to have to spend substantially more effort on tracking Rage. At first level, it was going to last for at least 8 rounds, possibly as much as 10, which is going to outlast almost any encounter anyway. At worst, you grabbed a spare d10 or d20 and moved it down one number at the end of each turn, assuming you even bothered.
I do like the new way fatigue works after Barbarian Rage. I just wish it weren't such an unnecessary hassle. If Barbarian Powers are just ways to make your rage unique (ie, always-on, don't have to pay extra for them), I'd like them much more. It's kinda ok for some things, like the scream, natural attack, and healing powers, but Low-Light vision and increased DR seem really really weird if you have to pay for them each round (and, frankly, overpay for them each round).
And lest we forget, this change to Rage is so very sweeping that it throws all Barbarian backwards compatibility out the window. After all, every barbarian prestige class assumes you use a per-day mechanic and that it lasts for 3+con mod rounds, neither of which remotely resemble it's current itineration.
At the end of the rage, the barbarian loses the rage modifiers and restrictions and becomes fatigued (–2 penalty to Strength, –2 penalty to Dexterity, can’t charge or run) for the duration of the current encounter...
Hm. I guess I always read that as meaning you counted the "duration of the (Rage) encounter", and you were fatigued an equal amount.
I can see the other way, sorta, but given many encounters are over BEFORE(3+ CON mod), that would mean the Barbarian is never actually Fatigued, which feels wonky. The SRD isn't worded "for the REMAINDER of the current encounter", which more clearly makes the Fatigue contingent on the remaining duration, it says you are Fatigued "for the duration" of the encounter (the duration of the encounter includes time spent in Rage, obviously).I think Jason has already indicated that some of the Powers will become always-on or pay-once for duration of Rage (Darkvision, perhaps?). And definetely, the Powers are so expensive, that even at 2nd and 4th level, you'd try to sparingly use even the cheapest powers. They really come into their own once you have more than enough points to cover normal Raging.
I could see the d20 method also, though I'd still just prefer flipping chips between cups, which means the most complicated thing I need to do is count out the number of chips = Rage Power Cost (if I use one, or one/round otherwise). Only at the end of the encounter, do I count up the "Fatigue Pool" to learn how long I'm fatigued. I guess you could count your REMAINING Rage Points then also, but it's actually un-necessary to know the exact number.