I'd say the unarmed fighter option should be more of an unarmed/improvised weapon street/bar fighter. Skip the AC bonus but allow them to gain proficiencies with objects and even use enemies as weapons.
The shield fighter should be able to apply their shield to their reflex save.
Honestly, the fighter is as customizible as any other character, if as much space is devoted to fighter feats as other classes spells.
In the Touch AC thread of General Discussion, I also mentioned that allowing shields to add to Touch AC might be a good idea as well... though that's more for a different Design Forum.
-Matt
I've noticed that in 4th edition shields add to AC and Reflex defense. It's actually an idea I like and I'm bringing in to my 3.5 game. Actually gives a good reason to have a shield.The shield fighter should be able to apply their shield to their reflex save.
Doesn't the shield ward feat in Player's Handbook 2 do that?
Yes, yes it does. That's the point, add the most prominent feature of Shield Ward into the shield rules.
Anyways, that's more for the Equipment Design Forum.
As for the issue at hand... I have to say, the Pathfinder Fighter suffers from the same problem that it did in 3.5: all it can do it make attack rolls and deal damage. Anything outside of combat, and the Fighter has nothing to do. Hell, even the Barbarian is more useful outside of combat than the Fighter!
All the Weapon and Armor Trainings do is reinforce that pidgeonhole. On top of that... Fighters still have no really good way to stand up to arcane magic. No amount of plusses to hit and damage will punch through a Displacement, for example.
My suggestion would be to expand the Fighter's scope. And a good way to do that is to utilize mental stats. It's what makes the Fighter different from the Barbarian (currently, the Barbarian, with two more skill points per level, can be considered "smarter!"). So instead of piling on bonus feats and very limited class features, the Fighter should instead have a larger skill list, 4+Int skill points per level, and unique class features that utilize mental stats.
As is... the Fighter is still just a two-level dip class, to get those feats you need to get into your prestige class and finish your feat chain.
-Matt
I'd say the unarmed fighter option should be more of an unarmed/improvised weapon street/bar fighter. Skip the AC bonus but allow them to gain proficiencies with objects and even use enemies as weapons.
While this might be amusing for livening things up in a bar-fight (or make for an interesting NPC brawler), I don't see it adding much to the class in terms of what they can offer a party unless they go intruding on the Monk's turf.
In particular, my experience has shown me that players who want to build a character who uses "enemies as weapons" are more interested in grand-standing and being glory-hounds rather that contributing meaningful damage output or roleplaying. Sure it's amusing, and perhaps even viable at low-levels, but as the enemies get tougher and the expected damage output of a melee character increases, they will be putting the rest of the party at greater risk because they are clowning around while their companions get eaten.
Other than this suggested option, I like the notion of fighters being able to focus on a particular style of fighting — provided that it "plays well" with other party roles. (God how I hate 4E for making that term seem dirty.)
All the Weapon and Armor Trainings do is reinforce that pidgeonhole. On top of that... Fighters still have no really good way to stand up to arcane magic. No amount of plusses to hit and damage will punch through a Displacement, for example.
the fighter with the blind fight feat closes his eyes and halves the effectiveness of displacement.
I think the armor bonus goes way to far. A CR 11 monster with a high attack bonus has +19 to hit. An 11th level fighter wearing normal full plate and having 18 dex has a non shield ac of 25, add in a add in a shield and +3 to the 4 basic bonuses (shield, armor, deflection, nat arm) and you have an ac of 39 (forget about the inevitable haste or dodge bonus) . So when a reasonably averagely equipped fighter attacks a "high attack bonus" monster all on his own and it can only hit on a 20. What is worse if this guy goes up against a CR 14 thug it only has +23 to hit, ie it needs a 16 to hit. It misses 75% of the time.
This cr 11 creature has an ac of 26 and 145hp. The fighter has about +23 to hit so in all probability the fighter will not take a hit before he has killed the beast. This is wrong. If it wasnt for the armor training the AC would be 6 points less. Meaning he would be hit 35% of the time.
Effectively gaining 2 points of AC at level 3, 7, 11, 15, 19 is TWICE as fast as the monk bonus- that is cracked!
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This cr 11 creature has an ac of 26 and 145hp. The fighter has about +23 to hit so in all probability the fighter will not take a hit before he has killed the beast. This is wrong. If it wasnt for the armor training the AC would be 6 points less. Meaning he would be hit 35% of the time.
Effectively gaining 2 points of AC at level 3, 7, 11, 15, 19 is TWICE as fast as the monk bonus- that is cracked!
There's something even more elementally wrong with this - what good does that AC bonus do the fighter in fulfilling his party role - protecting more vulnerable non-fighter types behind him? If he's investing all that money in defensive items, he's sacrificing some offense, since weapons cost so much more. All he's doing is forcing the enemy to throw away some creatures to keepthe fighter busy while the rest of his team takes out the casters. If the fighter could hamper the enemy's movement around him better, then that AC would benefit the team a little too.
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Doesn't the shield ward feat in Player's Handbook 2 do that?Yes, yes it does. That's the point, add the most prominent feature of Shield Ward into the shield rules.
-Matt
Or add 'Shield Ward' as a Feat (under a different name) into the PF rules?
If Jason chooses to do that, maybe the bonus should be *both* to Touch AC and Reflex Saves?
There's something even more elementally wrong with this - what good does that AC bonus do the fighter in fulfilling his party role - protecting more vulnerable non-fighter types behind him? If he's investing all that money in defensive items, he's sacrificing some offense, since weapons cost so much more. All he's doing is forcing the enemy to throw away some creatures to keepthe fighter busy while the rest of his team takes out the casters. If the fighter could hamper the enemy's movement around him better, then that AC would benefit the team a little too.
agreed, otherwise any mildly intelligent melee attack foe (quite a common foe type) should just ignore the fighter (he cant be hit and has hit points) and attack his mates-- the fighter then has to run around trying to intervene (almost impossible) and still being ignored when he gets there.
But my point was more that this ability not only isn't needed it is downright counterproductive - it makes any nonfighter melee class comparitively easy to hit -plus why the heck is a monks really clever training in dodging (only available without armor)only half as effective?
possible fighter abilities
- (3rd) attack of opportunity that causes a foe to have to cease his move 1/round (if they try and move to attack someone else or run past him he gets'em)"linebacker move"
- (7th) extra 5' reach for this attck of opportunity (just this one- to stop people getting past him)
- (11th)parry ranged attacks that pass through any square within reach of the fighter- (my parry mechanic is a little fuzzy- maybe it just provides cover of some sort?)
- (15th)& (19th) ??? some other abilty to control the battlefield- dont know but you get the idea - maybe additional "linebacker moves".
BTW I think the idea of shields effecting touch AC is good for two reasons (though I wouldn't make it a fighter only ability)
1) it makes shields better which they need with the massive damage being dealt by 2handed fighters
2) it would make arcane casters at least have to think about the chance of missing with all those rays of enfeeblement, exhaustion etc
What if the fighting style path was responsible for choosing the fighter bonus feats you choose from at certain levels, narrowing it down to make your choices considerably easier?
I like the theory of this idea... a lot. However balancing all of those feat paths against one another could be a real bear. This might be mitigated somewhat if the bonus feat sub-set is limited only up until the level-range where a character would be at a point to enter a prestige class.
well we are going away from PRC not to them and I like the ideals of styles but I think they might work better as a branch of weapon training
Or...
We could reduce the sheer number of bonus feats the Fighter gains and instead give the Fighter actual class features beyond plusses to hit, damage, and AC.
-Matt
We could reduce the sheer number of bonus feats the Fighter gains and instead give the Fighter actual class features beyond plusses to hit, damage, and AC.
See other threads -- Jason Bulmahn has stated that this isn't going to happen. He wants ideas presented as fighter-only feats (once feat discussion opens up), not new class features.
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Or...
We could reduce the sheer number of bonus feats the Fighter gains and instead give the Fighter actual class features beyond plusses to hit, damage, and AC.
-Matt
Yeah, if the barbarian is "tweaked" to work via 'Barbarian Talents' rather than Rage Points, it's weird that fighters don't get the same treatment. What I'd like to see is more dynamic, *tactical* choices, instead of slowly-progressing bonuses to AC, attacks and damage. Knockdown, "Checking" an enemy, Trip, Disarm ... all of them could work as "maneuvers" or "stunts". Or if that's not going to happen, I wouldn't mind a "floating", dynamic bonus that you can switch freely between AC, attacks, damage and saves.
All of that can be implemented via cleverly-designed Feats, but I think it's less elegant and dynamic than Talents or Class Abilities. :(
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As for high level features, I would let fighters acquire superpowers through magic or divine endowment and become like Thor, Iron Man, or Hanuman. Just give them a pool of gold pieces to purchase "magic items" and then have the items purchased with this pool simply be internalized. That would be a start.
No thank you on all of those...
As far as tactical possibilities, those could be a fighter only feat.
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Jason Bulmahn has stated that this isn't going to happen. He wants ideas presented as fighter-only feats (once feat discussion opens up), not new class features.If Mr. Bulmahn wants ideas for fighter-only feats, how about having fighter-only feat paths that add flavor to the fighter's background, as the martial paths suggested earlier in this thread would do?
For example:
Temple Knight Squire
Prerequisite: Fighter 1st, must worship a deity
Benefit: Heal and Knowledge (religion) are always class skills for you. You can make untrained Knowledge (religion) checks up to a DC of 15.
In addition, you gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with your deity's favored weapon.Temple Knight Adept
Prerequisite: Fighter 1st, Temple Knight Squire
Benefit: Each day, you can choose two cleric orisons. You can use these orisons just as a cleric can. Your fighter level is added to any levels of cleric you have for the purpose of calculating caster level when casting these orisons.
In addition, you gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with your deity's favored weapon.Temple Knight Guard
Prerequisite: Fighter 4th, Temple Knight Adept
Benefit: While you are within a hallowed area (if your deity is good or neutral) or unhallowed area (if your deity is evil), you gain a +1 divine bonus to Armor Class and saving throws.
If you are fighting an enemy of your faith (such as worshippers of an opposing deity), you gain a +1 bonus to melee and ranged weapon attack rolls against that enemy.
In addition, you gain a +1 bonus to damage rolls with your deity's favored weapon.This feat path represents training in the ways of a temple defender, not necessarily growing up as a temple defender. You learn to use your deity's weapon more effectively while studying some of your religion's lore and the tactics used by enemies of the faith.
I don't know if this is a good idea, because it adds another level of complexity to the mechanics -- similar to Initiate Feats (in FR) and Tactical Feats in CW. Besides, where to stop, if we start down this path? How many such 'Paths' for wizards or clerics or paladins or monks, and so on? How many "variations" of each class?