I'm thinking of starting a plane hopping swashbuckling campaign, so of course I need firearms. So let me know what you think; I'm not a history buff so I really don't know anything about renaissance era firearms. So if you have any suggestions, fire away!
Firearms have two unique properties among weapon groups. First, firearm attacks are rolled against Reflex rather than AC. Second, characters who do not have proficiency with firearms load them as a standard action rather than as a move action.
Military Ranged Weapons
One Handed
Handgun
Proficiency +0
Damage 1d8
Range 10/20
Price 50 gp
Weight 2 lb.
Group Firearm
Properties Load move, Puncturing, Slow Loader
Two Handed
Arquebus
Proficiency +0
Damage 1d10
Range 20/40
Price 50 gp
Weight 4 lb.
Group Firearm
Properties Load move, Puncturing, Slow Loader
Shotgun
Proficiency +0
Damage 1d4
Area Close blast 3
Price 50 gp
Weight 4 lb.
Group Firearm
Properties Load move, Puncturing, Slow Loader
Puncturing: Attacks made with weapons with this keyword are rolled against Reflex rather than AC.
Slow Loader: Characters who do not have proficiency with weapons with this keyword load them with a longer action rather than normal. For example if a slow loader weapon is normally loaded with a move action, a character without proficiency in that weapon loads it as a standard action instead.
TS
PS Sorry for that horrible pun!
That actually looks pretty good. What about a shotgun that does a close blast?
Edit: Also, I would make your special abilities of firearms into key words like the rest of the weapons. That way you can reference the key word if you need to in a feat.
Done!
TS
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Damage seems low for a shotgun, though I can see why you would want to do it that way for balance reasons. Still, I'd probably make the damage at least 1d6 - the Dragonborn breath weapon is a 3x3 blast that does 1d6 and is only a minor action. This is a standard action, so I'd be comfortable pushing up the damage a little.
Heck, if you made these weapons like their 3e counterparts and required a feat to gain proficiency, I'd probably push the damage dice up on each of them.
Damage seems low for a shotgun, though I can see why you would want to do it that way for balance reasons. Still, I'd probably make the damage at least 1d6 - the Dragonborn breath weapon is a 3x3 blast that does 1d6 and is only a minor action. This is a standard action, so I'd be comfortable pushing up the damage a little.
Heck, if you made these weapons like their 3e counterparts and required a feat to gain proficiency, I'd probably push the damage dice up on each of them.
Yeah, I think 1d6 is better for the shotgun/blunderbuss than 1d4. I do like the idea of making firearms superior weapons and boosting their damage or giving them the high crit property; even if they're not strictly superior they are expensive and uncommon in a renaissance-like setting so few people would be trained in their proper use.
TS
edit: I forgot to mention, I didn't change what they attack, ie swapping attacking AC for reflex, because that could cause potential problems for powers. Some rogue powers target reflex already, so you're complicating that, many poweres are balanced towards their respective defense types. Further, it's a bit of a hold back from previous versions of dnd where firearms ignored armor. I think this is more accurately represented in the higher bonus to hit than it is in ignoring armor altogether.
I might regret my 'puncturing' property later, but it just fits so perfectly with how firearms interact with armor. Not that 4e is an excessively realistic game, but I like to have stuff that vaguely imitates reality. Historically, metal armor died out for the sole reason that the increasingly common firearms effectively ignored it. Meanwhile, there is a lot less difference between a trained marksman and an untrained shooter than the difference between a trained swordsman and an untrained guy with a sword. The trained swordsman will defeat the guy with a sword maybe nine out of ten times, while the trained marksman will only defeat the untrained shooter six out of ten times. That's why guns are so scary to people in power; because they empower the lay masses. Hence the lack of proficiency bonus; because it doesn't require all that much skill to point and pull a trigger. And also because early firearms just sucked in the accuracy department; bullets left muzzles at angles more often than in straight lines. Even more than bows and crossbows, firearms were mostly a matter of 'aim it in the enemy's general direction and pray that you hit.'
TS
PS: Okay so I don't know nothing about early firearms, but nothing I know is weapon-specific.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Damage seems low for a shotgun, though I can see why you would want to do it that way for balance reasons. Still, I'd probably make the damage at least 1d6 - the Dragonborn breath weapon is a 3x3 blast that does 1d6 and is only a minor action. This is a standard action, so I'd be comfortable pushing up the damage a little.
Heck, if you made these weapons like their 3e counterparts and required a feat to gain proficiency, I'd probably push the damage dice up on each of them.
Yeah, I think 1d6 is better for the shotgun/blunderbuss than 1d4. I do like the idea of making firearms superior weapons and boosting their damage or giving them the high crit property; even if they're not strictly superior they are expensive and uncommon in a renaissance-like setting so few people would be trained in their proper use.
TS
I like making them high crit even better than increasing their damage dice. Good idea.
Alright if anyone is interested, here are the final stats for my homebrew firearms:
Superior Ranged Weapons
One Handed
Handgun
Proficiency +0
Damage 1d8
Range 10/20
Price 50 gp
Weight 4 lb.
Group Firearm
Properties High Crit, Load move, Puncturing, Slow Loader
Two Handed
Arquebus
Proficiency +0
Damage 1d10
Range 20/40
Price 50 gp
Weight 12 lb.
Group Firearm
Properties High Crit, Load move, Puncturing, Slow Loader
Blunderbuss
Proficiency +0
Damage 1d6
Area Close blast 3
Price 50 gp
Weight 8 lb.
Group Firearm
Properties High Crit, Load move, Puncturing, Slow Loader
Puncturing: Attacks made with weapons with this keyword are rolled against Reflex rather than AC.
Slow Loader: Characters who do not have proficiency with weapons with this keyword load them with a longer action rather than normal. For example if a slow loader weapon is normally loaded with a move action, a character without proficiency in that weapon loads it as a standard action instead.
TS
Great stuff TS. I commend you on the hard work you do in the editing. Its a little unfortunate that the BBS codes we have here are a tad...'primitive'. It must have taken you a bit of work to do everything with bolds as the leading words but it is very clear.
Let me also support you on the idea of using reflex. I agree with that at least until there is a real consensus that weapons that attack reflex will unbalance the game. In my experience its not been that big a deal in regular play. There really are a fair number of powers available to varous classes that already attack reflex. So far as I can tell such powers are very good against some creatures and terrible against others but they don't really seem innately better over all. Generally AC is higher but I see that you removed the plus weapons normally get for proficiency which should balance things out, IMO. In fact I suspect you'll probably find that against things like Kobolds the PCs will put the guns away and use swords as the little buggers have a great reflex save.
...
OK I just spent 15 minutes randomly opening the monster manual to different monsters and comparing their varous defences (AC, Fort, Reflex and Will). While its no statistical proof my impression is that Reflex is actually the defence that changes the least relative to AC. Its almost always 2 or 3 points back from AC. Occasionally its some big weak point and once in a while (with kobolds) its actually the best defence but it seemed to me that almost always it was a few points lower then AC.
Fort was similar but slightly more likely to be really high - probably tied up with monsters with loads of hps from Con. Will is the big weak point of most monsters with Will often being very substantially lower then other defences.
Great stuff TS. I commend you on the hard work you do in the editing. Its a little unfortunate that the BBS codes we have here are a tad...'primitive'. It must have taken you a bit of work to do everything with bolds as the leading words but it is very clear.
Thanks for the glowing review! Formatting actually wasn't a huge deal; less annoying actually than formatting tables like I usually do for other forums. I have yet to find a forum that recognizes tabs or multiple spaces in the same way a word processor does.
TS
Looks pretty good all and all. Though honestly i would make them simple weapons so anyone could use them. Reason being is in RL that was a big reason early guns took over. It took very little time to train people compared to a longbow for example.
Exactly; which is why guns have a +0 proficiency bonus but take longer for a non-proficient user to load. It doesn't take much skill at all to point and pull a trigger, but loading powder and bullets into a gun in a timely fashion requires a bit of practice.
TS
Here's a simple rule that makes guns believeable.
Anyone shot must resist with reflex or die from having a vital organ damaged. There would be about 1D6 rounds to heal the fatal wound before actual death. If the save or whatever is made, it's only a flesh wound and low damage would still make sense. This is why guns do not belong in 4th edition.
I also think an unskilled gunman may hit any target randomly in front of them. Make a numbered list of everything in front of them including walls, and roll for what gets hit. Only special bullet proof armor will stop a bullet.
Here's a simple rule that makes guns believeable.
Anyone shot must resist with reflex or die from having a vital organ damaged. There would be about 1D6 rounds to heal the fatal wound before actual death. If the save or whatever is made, it's only a flesh wound and low damage would still make sense. This is why guns do not belong in 4th edition.
You've mainly just pointed out again that Dungeons and Dragons has always been an awful simulator of physical combat.
The amount of physical trauma the body suffers from being shot with an early musket ball is far less then the amount of physical trauma you'd suffer if some one shoved a broad sword into you.
Put another way - if your shot in the torso you might get lucky and it might not take out anything critical. If some one shoves a 4 1/2 inch broad sword through your torso your basically screwed. The blade is so wide that its very unlikely that it could penetrate your flesh in such a way that it won't hit something vital.
In the hands of those willing to use it a broad bladed sword is a more lethal weapon then an early fire arm. Also if we want to be realistic about this then swords and axes really should be slicing off limbs right and left. They are very good for that. If I have a battle axe and I just hit you in the arm with my swing I'm still probably severing the arm wherever I hit.
well, they didnt have a shotgun; call it a blunderbuss; they just filled it with all sorts of things; rocks; nails; ect; gave same effect but wider scatter range and less overall range.
a big rifles for a two man team was called an arbeques; usually had a long stake attached to the midway of the barrel for support while shooting.
also; you are talking black powder era; keep in mind that black powder when stored sweats nitroglycerin; so not only was making the stuff hazardous; it couldnt really be stored or stockpiled. if your just starting out; all kinds of hand bombs were created as well; the early stuff was charcoal, sulfer and saltpeter (usaully from pig manure).
also; you probably want to add in missfires; powder wet; flint wears; striker problems; also; reload times; there are no caseless or cased ammunition; so you had to pack powder wads and balls by hand; often in those days ammunition was pounded in with a rod and hammer for a good seal; expecially in long rifles of german make of the era.
also; rifling didnt come around till much later and ammunition was usually round; ie not much accurate range; longer the barrel; the longer the accurate range.
Also; blackpowder pushes; so you had to pull the trigger and maintain the target by hand as it burned and built up pressure; a couple seconds at least; not nearly instant like modern powder.
One last thing; black powder makes a large smoke cloud at the striker ignition point and pushes a fairly large cloud out of the barrel.
ok; military munitions; mostly motars which are not much more than a iron crock with powder in the bottom and a shell; usually explosive.
took a long time for them to figure out you didnt need to light the fuse on a mortar or cannon shot; so was not uncommon for the shell to blow up the cannon or mortar team. Also; steel of the era couldnt take the stress for long and cannons split after repeated use until new refining techniques were developed.
no hearing protection; so cannon and mortar teams are pretty deaf.
hope this adds to your game.
oh; one last thing; the thing about firearms was not range or accuracy; was that any fool could use one; and they had excellent penetration; meaning no armor was worth wearing against it so I would recommend treating everyone as an armorless target against firearms.
oh; one last thing; the thing about firearms was not range or accuracy; was that any fool could use one; and they had excellent penetration; meaning no armor was worth wearing against it so I would recommend treating everyone as an armorless target against firearms.
That's why I ignored hit by AC. If you do not have bullet proof armor of some kind, you are literally trying to dodge a bullet.
You skipped hand cannons which were literally small cannons. 3.5 had volcano clubs that just exploded and had to be reloaded during down time. You could just skip guns and have exploding arrows.
well, they didnt have a shotgun; call it a blunderbuss; they just filled it with all sorts of things; rocks; nails; ect; gave same effect but wider scatter range and less overall range.
Err. It looks like TS did use that term.
a big rifles for a two man team was called an arbeques; usually had a long stake attached to the midway of the barrel for support while shooting.
Looks as if TS has gone with a smaller one person version. Anyone know what the name of the heavy muskets favoured by the Afghans was called? That might be an interesting addition for TS to add.
also; you are talking black powder era; keep in mind that black powder when stored sweats nitroglycerin; so not only was making the stuff hazardous; it couldnt really be stored or stockpiled. if your just starting out; all kinds of hand bombs were created as well; the early stuff was charcoal, sulfer and saltpeter (usaully from pig manure).also; you probably want to add in missfires; powder wet; flint wears; striker problems; also; reload times; there are no caseless or cased ammunition; so you had to pack powder wads and balls by hand; often in those days ammunition was pounded in with a rod and hammer for a good seal; expecially in long rifles of german make of the era.
I think he's mostly covered this sort of thing with the long load times.
also; rifling didnt come around till much later and ammunition was usually round; ie not much accurate range; longer the barrel; the longer the accurate range.
His ranges look pretty short to me.
Also; blackpowder pushes; so you had to pull the trigger and maintain the target by hand as it burned and built up pressure; a couple seconds at least; not nearly instant like modern powder.
I've noticed this in period movies etc. Anyway the length of time is not really significant, you'll fire in your round, I suppose one could give an initiative penalty for using gunpowder weapons but its questionable if its worth the trouble.
One last thing; black powder makes a large smoke cloud at the striker ignition point and pushes a fairly large cloud out of the barrel.
Not really sure one gun makes enough to add anything rules wise here. Concealment in the space in front of the gun might make some sense - but it'd probably help the shooter to much as he'd just 5 foot step from behind the 'cover' when he wanted to shoot again.
oh; one last thing; the thing about firearms was not range or accuracy; was that any fool could use one; and they had excellent penetration; meaning no armor was worth wearing against it so I would recommend treating everyone as an armorless target against firearms.
He's got this. Proficiency +0 vs. reflex.
What Jeremy said...hey Jeremy, can I hire you as my official spokesperson? ;)
TS
What Jeremy said...hey Jeremy, can I hire you as my official spokesperson? ;)
TS
I'll want payment in litres...err gallons of Egg Cream.