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Putting all three together means manipulation is one skill and the difference is a matter of context and method.
My posts illustrate how Charisma gives you the edge because it's harder to be scared of muscle when the encounter system pretty much jades you against it, ergo the strong, low Charisma guy loses compared to the physically weak, but otherwise dangerous high Charisma guy.
I would support putting all three skills together. I think that they really are just three sides of the same coin. ;p
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I would support putting all three skills together. I think that they really are just three sides of the same coin. ;p
i disagree
they are pretty much differentbluff - its about deception. period. you might not be lying, but you are playing with the truth, you are trying to go your own way without the need to figth, or are trying to confuse someone in combat. Deception is charisma skill, a person who might be strong but is unable to lye for his own life might be unable to rpesent himself as mroe terrorizing than the guy with the bow who shouts at him "dud you are surrounded, either you put your sword down or we are going to make a pinchushion out of your body!"
someone not good enought to lie, would not be able to pull this of and will get impaled/slashed/blunted to death... someone with the wits and character to pull this... is all over the way free to go ro do as he prefers....
intimidation - its about telling you are a menace, eiother phisically or mentally, or socially, or politicalyu, its the ability to put the fear of good in the people... it can work if you are lying... but its a lot more useful when are are telling the TRUTH... you just know how to comunicate that truth correctly.
all havepput good examples of intimidation: the guy with the funny look and the michievous green, the strong guy with themenacing face, the slim guy with the dagger in the black alley...
have you forgotten about: the serious sherrif that tells you that you either leave the town before sunset or he si goign to go for you? or the politician who just shows you an envelope with compromising photos or who just know what "names" say in order to get your attention?
diplomacy - its not for good guys... its for the smart ones... you want to broke a deal... a good deal for you... you jsut present it in a way that feels good for everyone... even if its not...
also diplomacy has already too many things included, inclding gather information (jsut the old talking to the barman or the victim friend to get an idea, or the prostitute in the bed to know what does she knows)
you just see the skills as very very very slim things with little aplication and want to mess all toguether because its cheaper :P
my cleric has: diplomacy as one of her best skills... even then with her little intimidation (which is not class skill for the cleric), but even with a decent charisma 13 (it soon would become 14) would not be able to lie if her life depended on that (-6 to bluff... story reason and a feat created by my with the master's help with pushes up diploacy vs good guys, intimidation gainst bad guys)
so... no... i don't see why they should be put toguether...specially ebcause they are too different
perception its about identifying things with your senses... its is correct to put listen and spot... still i am not sure about search which is more active.
i disagree they are pretty much different
So are Listen and Spot. :) If we're going to have grouped skills in Pathfinder, some unrealistic combos will occur. But the various skills should have at least a modicum of balance with one another.
i disagree they are pretty much differentSo are Listen and Spot. :) If we're going to have grouped skills in Pathfinder, some unrealistic combos will occur. But the various skills should have at least a modicum of balance with one another.
No, the only way I can find my keys when I lose them,
is be as quiet as possible and listen for the little sound they whisper to me: "Hammer Time..."|
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i disagree they are pretty much differentSo are Listen and Spot. :) If we're going to have grouped skills in Pathfinder, some unrealistic combos will occur. But the various skills should have at least a modicum of balance with one another.No, the only way I can find my keys when I lose them,
is be as quiet as possible and listen for the little sound they whisper to me: "Hammer Time..."
read my answer up, i was editing the post while you 2 were answering :P
Yes, but built-in.You should probably be able to add your Strength bonus instead of your Charisma bonus (but still take penalties from a Cha penalty) if the target can see you. But, eh.Like the Intimidating Prowess feat does?
Yeah the problem is it is not worth a feat to get that option, however convenient it is for one skill.