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Two years ago at Gen Con I bought a large vinyl map of Ptolus from Fiery Dragon Productions (http://shop.fierydragon.com/product.sc?categoryId=4&productId=50).
I'm curious if the folks at Paizo would consider doing something like this for a map of Golarion? I hate unfolding and folding my map that came with the Campaign Setting too much because of the wear and tear, and the heavy crease marks make it a little unwieldly anyway.
It would be a great product to roll out at Gen Con next year anyway with the heavy sales of the RPG book, so if I can in any way put that little bug in your ear (hint hint), maybe there's enough time to commission one if you haven't thought of it already. :)
Cheers!
I have taken several of the maps from Pathfinder to Kinkos and had them put on vinyl. One of my largest is the Golarian map. I believe it is about 48" x 36".
I have one of Sandpoint, Korvosa, Varisia (larger) and one of Magnimar.
I had all the cities one 2x3 feet. It has worked out great for me.
They put them on vinyl? I was thinking of just laminating them I hadn't heard they could put them onto vinyl, that's cool.
Other than laminating I was going to suggest that the OP roll up the map rather than fold it, they tend to last longer that way. Of course then you have to have something to hold them down. I use 4mil clear plastic.
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I have taken several of the maps from Pathfinder to Kinkos and had them put on vinyl. One of my largest is the Golarian map. I believe it is about 48" x 36".
I have one of Sandpoint, Korvosa, Varisia (larger) and one of Magnimar.
I had all the cities one 2x3 feet. It has worked out great for me.
About how much did that run you? And- did you do it from the PDFs?
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I actually take them the PDF of the map I want them to run. They do put them on vinyl, it is the material they make banners out of. You have a choice of indoor or outdoor material.
You cannot make it too big because the image will start to pixelize that is why I make city maps 2x3 but they are nice.
Costs: I do not pay too much attention to that so I am guessing. I think the city maps have been less than $100.00. I believe my varisia and golarian maps maybe were $200.00 each or so (I am guessing here).
I remember I made a map of FR that was 6x5 and it was around $300.00.
(Again prices are guesses. I have not done one since we had a decent map of Korvosa).
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Other than laminating I was going to suggest that the OP roll up the map rather than fold it, they tend to last longer that way. Of course then you have to have something to hold them down. I use 4mil clear plastic.
If I was going to use the paper map I would probably mount it on a corkboard or something so the wear and tear is less. I have not used any of my papermaps at all. Even when I printing a map for use on the table I put it on either 32 lb paper which is like plastic almost or cardstock.
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I did some investigating after seeing Shem's post (thanks, Shem), and there seem to be some options, but they are all fairly expensive. The minimum for the indoor or outdoor banners seem to start at around $125. There is a vinyl outdoor banner that starts at $99.
I'm begining to realize I got a pretty good deal from Fiery Dragon (I think I paid about $40-45 at Gen Con two years ago); the Ptolus map lists at $60 currently. I'm not sure I want to shell out for the pdf, just to turn around and pay over $100 bucks for a vinyl map.
The cork board idea sounds pretty good for the now, though.
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There is a big difference between a mass produced product and a custom made one you get done yourself.
I believe that someone at Paizo (Vic ?) said they would not likely make maps because they are expensive to do and they are difficult to store in the warehouse and shipping is expensive.
Prices really depend on how large you make the map.
A vinyl map would be a really nice thing to have.
And James...don't think we've forgotten about the Golarion Globe that Erik bandied with us about!
Globe! Globe! Globe!
I did some investigating after seeing Shem's post (thanks, Shem), and there seem to be some options, but they are all fairly expensive. The minimum for the indoor or outdoor banners seem to start at around $125. There is a vinyl outdoor banner that starts at $99.
I'm begining to realize I got a pretty good deal from Fiery Dragon (I think I paid about $40-45 at Gen Con two years ago); the Ptolus map lists at $60 currently. I'm not sure I want to shell out for the pdf, just to turn around and pay over $100 bucks for a vinyl map.
The cork board idea sounds pretty good for the now, though.
Holy moly! I've got a friend in the photography business (as a side job) that prints them for me at 24" by whatever (he's only got a 24" carriage on his printer) and they never cost me more than $15-25 dollars--I may be getting a friend discount or something, but I'm sure he wouldn't go up to the $100 arena. The Golarion map from the Pathfinder Chronicles CS is native 21"x32" and would likely print with no real pixelation at all at up to 24". I've currently got the Isle of Dread and Farshore printed out, but plan on getting my Golarion maps done up soon. I could check if he's interested in print runs for other folks.
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Holy moly! I've got a friend in the photography business (as a side job) that prints them for me at 24" by whatever (he's only got a 24" carriage on his printer) and they never cost me more than $15-25 dollars--I may be getting a friend discount or something, but I'm sure he wouldn't go up to the $100 arena. The Golarion map from the Pathfinder Chronicles CS is native 21"x32" and would likely print with no real pixelation at all at up to 24". I've currently got the Isle of Dread and Farshore printed out, but plan on getting my Golarion maps done up soon. I could check if he's interested in print runs for other folks.I did some investigating after seeing Shem's post (thanks, Shem), and there seem to be some options, but they are all fairly expensive. The minimum for the indoor or outdoor banners seem to start at around $125. There is a vinyl outdoor banner that starts at $99.
I'm begining to realize I got a pretty good deal from Fiery Dragon (I think I paid about $40-45 at Gen Con two years ago); the Ptolus map lists at $60 currently. I'm not sure I want to shell out for the pdf, just to turn around and pay over $100 bucks for a vinyl map.
The cork board idea sounds pretty good for the now, though.
I'd take a Golarion map for sure at somewhere around that range. Let me know if he will and how much to ship to Delaware.
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Holy moly! I've got a friend in the photography business (as a side job) that prints them for me at 24" by whatever (he's only got a 24" carriage on his printer) and they never cost me more than $15-25 dollars--I may be getting a friend discount or something, but I'm sure he wouldn't go up to the $100 arena. The Golarion map from the Pathfinder Chronicles CS is native 21"x32" and would likely print with no real pixelation at all at up to 24". I've currently got the Isle of Dread and Farshore printed out, but plan on getting my Golarion maps done up soon. I could check if he's interested in print runs for other folks.
Is he printing on vinyl? That's the material for which those prices are being quoted.
Is he printing on vinyl? That's the material for which those prices are being quoted.
It's a canvas-like material that's like what you'd get a portrait painted on (he has the stuff on-hand for such pictures for clients, obviously). I'll check tomorrow to see if it's a polyvinyl of some sort or is in fact something more organic (cotton, hemp, etc.); I believe it's the latter. The maps I have feel very much like my Chessex battlemaps. I haven't tried dry- or wet-erase marking on them (as you can on my Chessex maps), though I have asked him if the surface could be finished in such a way as to allow this.
Hmm, we would have the difficulty of getting him the actual files to print...Question for Paizo, would providing him a PDF with specs to print/ship a map be substantively the same as a customer heading down to Kinko's and handing them the file on a disk?
Chief Technical Officer
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...Question for Paizo, would providing him a PDF with specs to print/ship a map be substantively the same as a customer heading down to Kinko's and handing them the file on a disk?
We don't have a problem with a legitimate service bureau printing individual copies of customer's PDFs, but we know that they're not taking your PDFs and redistributing them. (If they did, they'd have been sued into the ground by now.) Nonprofessionals doing the same thing is iffy.
We don't have a problem with a legitimate service bureau printing individual copies of customer's PDFs, but we know that they're not taking your PDFs and redistributing them. (If they did, they'd have been sued into the ground by now.) Nonprofessionals doing the same thing is iffy.
Thanks. He's a legit company (Greg Kelly Photography) though he's not presently in the general print shop business. I wasn't able to get with him today but will continue pursuing it tomorrow. I've got to get some more maps from him for this weekend, actually, as I'm talking about Pathfinder and Golarion at our area meet-up this weekend, then running the first PFS scenario. I want to have the map of Golarion from the PFCS on hand in canvas as a big eye-catcher and I'm also going to have him print battle maps of the scenario encounters (on paper though).
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...Question for Paizo, would providing him a PDF with specs to print/ship a map be substantively the same as a customer heading down to Kinko's and handing them the file on a disk?We don't have a problem with a legitimate service bureau printing individual copies of customer's PDFs, but we know that they're not taking your PDFs and redistributing them. (If they did, they'd have been sued into the ground by now.) Nonprofessionals doing the same thing is iffy.
And I want to say how much I appreciate that Vic. The people at my local Kinkos know me as the gaming freak that brings in those big maps for them to make.
Add me to the list for wanting those canvas maps at that price range, or even a little higher.
Okay, I was able to talk through things with Greg last night. He confirmed that he is printing on cotton-based canvas. He hasn't had a chance to check out any type of sealer options that might make these things writeable with a wet-erase marker, but might do so if the demand was there. He also confirmed the price--he's going to print out a full Golarion map (from the Campaign Setting PDF) for me today for $30. He says the price would be based on length, roughly about $1 per linear inch it looks like (the Golarion map is 32" long). I'll take a digital photo of this one so folks can check it out.
I obviously don't want to route these things through me--I've already got pretty much all the Golarion stuff but it would still look odd in my opinion. So, please check out his web site (Greg Kelly Photography) to contact Greg about printing anything. And of course, he can print things other than maps if you've got a portrait or some such you'd like.
I work for an engineering firm so I have been able to use the company plotter to print the maps on sheets of Mylar boPET film. If you have access to this it works out slick.
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I work for an engineering firm so I have been able to use the company plotter to print the maps on sheets of Mylar boPET film. If you have access to this it works out slick.
I havn't been able to get mylar, but I was able to print my homebrew map on really big paper. definately a great option as opposed to dishing out mad cash for one.
I work for an engineering firm so I have been able to use the company plotter to print the maps on sheets of Mylar boPET film. If you have access to this it works out slick.I havn't been able to get mylar, but I was able to print my homebrew map on really big paper. definately a great option as opposed to dishing out mad cash for one.
Yes I agree. I've got a 42" carriage large format printer that will print up to 84" long. It works great for printing out full-size battle maps and such. I do still prefer the canvas for my "nice" maps that will see repeated use, as for instance my map of Farshore printed out on the work printer has suffered significantly over the last several years of use. It is significantly cheaper, obviously, but the look on my players faces when I whipped out the canvas Isle of Dread map was great.
I'll have the Golarion map in hand this afternoon, and am also having him print out the battle maps for PFS Scenario 1 for our area meet-up tonight. I'll posts pics (or a link to our meet-up if we take pics there).
Also, Greg reports that somethings up with his standard email address for the site. He's asked that folks direct their email to gregkelly {at} bellsouth {dot} net for now until he figures out the problem.
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I actually take them the PDF of the map I want them to run. They do put them on vinyl, it is the material they make banners out of. You have a choice of indoor or outdoor material.
You cannot make it too big because the image will start to pixelize that is why I make city maps 2x3 but they are nice.
Costs: I do not pay too much attention to that so I am guessing. I think the city maps have been less than $100.00. I believe my varisia and golarian maps maybe were $200.00 each or so (I am guessing here).
I remember I made a map of FR that was 6x5 and it was around $300.00.
(Again prices are guesses. I have not done one since we had a decent map of Korvosa).
Wow! I had no idea Kinko's did vinyl. When I get back to the states, I am going to have to check it out.
Quick question - how long does it take them to print on vinyl?
Holy moly! I've got a friend in the photography business (as a side job) that prints them for me at 24" by whatever (he's only got a 24" carriage on his printer) and they never cost me more than $15-25 dollars--I may be getting a friend discount or something, but I'm sure he wouldn't go up to the $100 arena. The Golarion map from the Pathfinder Chronicles CS is native 21"x32" and would likely print with no real pixelation at all at up to 24". I've currently got the Isle of Dread and Farshore printed out, but plan on getting my Golarion maps done up soon. I could check if he's interested in print runs for other folks.
You might be getting some kind of friend discount. If you look at these kinds of high quality large format industrial printers you'll see that they often go for between $40,000 to $80,000 dollars. Thats big time money. I have to think that any print shop using such machines has to try and recoup the investment and they probably need to try and do so with about 10 years as printing technology is always improving. 10 years from now all their printers will be obsolete. Hence if one is trying to recoup a, say, $60,000 dollar investment you know the customers are not just paying for the raw materials here - their paying to access a really expencive machine and make it worth he money the company put into it. The machine is so expencive and the number of customers that need this kind of thing is not that high that chances are any company buying this sort of machinery is probably charging three or four times the price of the materials just to make anything that resembles a profit.
You might be getting some kind of friend discount...
Yes, though not enough to break the price down from $100. As detailed throughout this thread, though, we're talking two different media--canvas vs. vinyl--and also a max width of 24". This is the largest factor in the price, though I must say I really do like the feel of canvas maps better than vinyl. Oddly enough, Greg was in the print shop business about 15 years back and so knows all the ins and outs there, but his current work is a side business.
We had a discussion about these maps, both vinyl and canvas, at our meet-up this weekend. Some of the folks there had vinyl maps as well, but complained that over time (after a year or so) the ink tended to smudge. That's actually one of the things I'm watching on these canvas maps--how well they stand up to actual use. Obviously the material was intended to be hung on a wall in a portrait frame. I've been using my canvas Isle of Dread map for about 3-4 months now and have detected no degradation, however. Of course, I've got several more months to go to have a good comparison against a year-old vinyl map.
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You might be getting some kind of friend discount...Yes, though not enough to break the price down from $100. As detailed throughout this thread, though, we're talking two different media--canvas vs. vinyl--and also a max width of 24". This is the largest factor in the price, though I must say I really do like the feel of canvas maps better than vinyl. Oddly enough, Greg was in the print shop business about 15 years back and so knows all the ins and outs there, but his current work is a side business.
We had a discussion about these maps, both vinyl and canvas, at our meet-up this weekend. Some of the folks there had vinyl maps as well, but complained that over time (after a year or so) the ink tended to smudge. That's actually one of the things I'm watching on these canvas maps--how well they stand up to actual use. Obviously the material was intended to be hung on a wall in a portrait frame. I've been using my canvas Isle of Dread map for about 3-4 months now and have detected no degradation, however. Of course, I've got several more months to go to have a good comparison against a year-old vinyl map.
I have had a 4x3 foot map of the Forgotten Realms I had done a couple of years ago. It has held up fine but I do put it up on the wall and not use it to play with. There are two kinds of vinyl. Inside and outside and I have them put it on the inside kind. I do not know about canvas and might ask next time. I am considering buying a large printer for photos that I can probably use to make maps up to 42" wide and may try that out after I get the printer.
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Dispelling the Myth about Vinyl Maps...
I am professional graphic designer and digital printer, who runs his own studio, as well as specializing in large format maps for RPGs.
Vinyl maps are more durable than unlaminated paper maps, in that you can spill drinks on it and it won't be damaged. However, if you laminate a paper map, it is now infinitely more durable than any vinyl printed map.
Vinyl maps are exceedingly expensive to print - the inks and media costs much higher, and the advantages of vinyl or much less than the cost.
Although I can print vinyl maps as well, I don't recommend it. The better option is to get a paper printed map and laminate, which is far more durable than an unlaminated vinyl map.
Regarding cost...
I can print a full color, high resolution RPG map using 100 year durability archival inks onto photo grade paper, measuring 36 inches by 72 inches, then laminating with heavy duty, 5 mil lamination and ship to anywhere in the world... for less than the cost of a 24 x 36 vinyl map printed at Kinkos, or anywhere else.
Just because the Ptolus map is vinyl does not mean this is better for you.
On top of that, because I specialize in printing RPG maps, I can not only use the standard graphic formats of JPG, PNG, TIF, BMP, etc. but I can print native formats from Campaign Cartographer, Dundjinni or Fractal Mapper --- Kinkos can't do that!
Gamer-Printer
Dispelling the Myth about Vinyl Maps...
I am professional graphic designer and digital printer, who runs his own studio, as well as specializing in large format maps for RPGs.
Vinyl maps are more durable than unlaminated paper maps, in that you can spill drinks on it and it won't be damaged. However, if you laminate a paper map, it is now infinitely more durable than any vinyl printed map.
Vinyl maps are exceedingly expensive to print - the inks and media costs much higher, and the advantages of vinyl or much less than the cost.
Although I can print vinyl maps as well, I don't recommend it. The better option is to get a paper printed map and laminate, which is far more durable than an unlaminated vinyl map.
Regarding cost...
I can print a full color, high resolution RPG map using 100 year durability archival inks onto photo grade paper, measuring 36 inches by 72 inches, then laminating with heavy duty, 5 mil lamination and ship to anywhere in the world... for less than the cost of a 24 x 36 vinyl map printed at Kinkos, or anywhere else.
Just because the Ptolus map is vinyl does not mean this is better for you.
On top of that, because I specialize in printing RPG maps, I can not only use the standard graphic formats of JPG, PNG, TIF, BMP, etc. but I can print native formats from Campaign Cartographer, Dundjinni or Fractal Mapper --- Kinkos can't do that!
Gamer-Printer
Sure makes me feel better about my laminated paper maps!
Only because I see it mentioned in this thread (about Kinko's vs. Private Service Bureaus), and I've talked with Paizo regarding this during Gencon 07, when I was sharing a vendor booth with Gamemaster Syndicate.
I run Gamer Printshop, which is a service bureau that specializes in printing large format RPG maps. From the site, I basically offer two things. One, if an individual has a map they've created for their own game, whether using Photoshop/GIMP or Campaign Cartographer/Dundjinni. Upload to my FTP site and I print and ship.
My other primary service is that I am an RPG Map POD shop. I have agreements with several RPG publishers to print and ship their maps on a per order basis (I ship worldwide). I have an agreement with Russ Morrisey from E.N. Publishing for their World of the Burning Sky maps. Most of the other publishers I work are much smaller or individual cartographers with their own set of custom maps like 12 to Midnight, Open Design Project (through Wolfgang Bauer and Kobold Quarterly, a recent agreement), and recently I've got participation from the Cartographers' Guild, so all their maps can be cross-marketed through my site, with a $2 add-on to printing, which I send back to the Guild each.
I won't post pricing, as this is not the place for it, but I think Paizo should consider PODing their maps through my service. I am really a gamer serving my own community at the best price I can afford.
Gamer Printer
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Chief Technical Officer
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I run Gamer Printshop, which is a service bureau that specializes in printing large format RPG maps. From the site, I basically offer two things. One, if an individual has a map they've created for their own game, whether using Photoshop/GIMP or Campaign Cartographer/Dundjinni. Upload to my FTP site and I print and ship.
My other primary service is that I am an RPG Map POD shop. I have agreements with several RPG publishers to print and ship their maps on a per order basis (I ship worldwide). I have an agreement with Russ Morrisey from E.N. Publishing for their World of the Burning Sky maps. Most of the other publishers I work are much smaller or individual cartographers with their own set of custom maps like 12 to Midnight, Open Design Project (through Wolfgang Bauer and Kobold Quarterly, a recent agreement), and recently I've got participation from the Cartographers' Guild, so all their maps can be cross-marketed through my site, with a $2 add-on to printing, which I send back to the Guild each.
I won't post pricing, as this is not the place for it, but I think Paizo should consider PODing their maps through my service. I am really a gamer serving my own community at the best price I can afford.
The idea of hooking up with a POD printer has virtually no appeal for me; Paizo has a reputation for quality and service, and I believe that our best chance of maintaining that reputation is to have direct control over our customer experience. That said, I have no problems with our customers taking PDFs we've published and having you—or any other service bureau—print them for their personal use. To that end, feel free to extend the service you mention in the first paragraph to include Paizo PDFs, so long as individuals aren't ordering them printed in volume!
I appreciate and respect your position on controlling your customer experience. Although Gamer Printshop is only two years old, my daytime business, which I base Gamer Printshop from, has been around since 1994, and I too have a solid reputation to my clients to maintain.
That said, I only do "one off" prints of the PDF maps clients have me print for them now. I have done short run printing, but exclusively to publishers on contract, never individuals. So I can guarantee I wouldn't do any redistribution of my clients properties. I desire a long lived, reputable company, not a "get rich though fraud or cheating someone's rights" one.
I serve both gamers and game publishers!
GP