I dont know I got WARED 3 times months back for saying the realms looked like a bad hack job any DM worth his salt could come up with a better storyline.
thats it no cussing no hash words just that
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Well if there is a need to 'coordinate complaints', compile 'watch lists' of your enemies and this is SOP for that board I will thank my lucky stars that I never got involved with them. It sounds like virtual vigilanteism. I would like to play a game, not engage in some over-hyped nerdrage drama fest with virtual cliques mashing the complaint button when someone disagrees with them. My God, when did it all get so out of hand?
I'll repeat my advice one more time, despite it never being taken:
It's a game people! Plenty of other stuff to post long angry screeds on the Internet about, that's why we invented politics. Gaming is supposed to be fun. :)
Maybe you should check what I wrote again.
The problem is not watch lists for enemies, but watch lists for repeat offenders that the community manager refused to consider complaints about because people made multiple complaints.The problem is not shutting down edition wars but shutting down personal attacks and gratuitous or casual insensitivity.
The problem is not the people who want a decent and civil forum, but people who think throwing around "nerdrage" makes them something other than just another nerd, raging about how others behave.
Yes, it is a game. Given that, why do you feel the need to post such an angry screed?
...Yes, it is a game. Given that, why do you feel the need to post such an angry screed?
I didn't consider my screed angry, but your opinion might vary on this. As it is, I am washing my hands of the matter. It doesn't affect me since I do not post there, I just thought the fact that people had to go to such extremes on a forum dedicated to a game was a little Orwellian in my opinion. But anyhoo ..I'm out. Off to more productive things.
As I leap to my own defense....
Our goal has always been to try and curtail the actions of people who (literally) go after game designers, novel authors, WotC employees and other forum members.
So we watch and we report. When forum members are attacked by these people, we contact the forum member by PM and encourage them to stick around despite the BS.
Occasionally we’ll contact the attacker and ask them (politely) to back off.
On the FR Forums, we’re at the stage where regular forum posters who are on the watch list have learned to couch their attacks in innuendo and otherwise avoid direct CoC violations.
We also still have problems with parrot posters (people who just repeat whatever anyone else says; consider Markus’ statement earlier in this thread: Everything I was saying was based on stuff others were reporting. ....so much for “picking the thing apart, and listing all the mistakes”).
This has lead to any number of complaints against negativity on the FR Forums and opened discussion on both the FR Forums and the Community Business Forum about the lack of value in negativity for its own sake and what can be done differently.
We’re starting to see a few people on the list back up what might be termed negative posts with reasoned arguments in lieu of ad hominem and personal attacks, which is a big improvement.
Ultimately, all we can do is report what we perceive as CoC violations. The WizO's make the final call (as ever) as to whether or not what's reported is actionable.
With a new Community Manager in place at WotC, hopefully there will be an emphasis on encouraging forum members to think before they post and to try and make each of their posts positive and useful, even if it’s in the form of criticism.
As I leap to my own defense....
Our goal has always been to try and curtail the actions of people who (literally) go after game designers, novel authors, WotC employees and other forum members.
So we watch and we report. When forum members are attacked by these people, we contact the forum member by PM and encourage them to stick around despite the BS.
I promised myself I would let this go, and I am probably going to regret posting again on this subject, but this bothered me.
I fully admit to Samuel that I got a little hyperbolic with the post I put in earlier. As I mentioned, I don't post on the WotC forums, so perhaps there is a need for these groups of self-appointed monitors. Once again I don't know and I will refrain from commenting on them again. However, Sanishiver has come back with his explanation of the purpose of his group (and I am calling it a group due to his use of 'we' and 'our' in his post.) He posted the above to explain what his group's purpose was. The thing that stuck in my craw was his posting a little earlier, to wit:
You were probably banned for making repeated personal attacks against WotC's employees.
The times I reported you were for instances like that, at any rate.
Got to keep the forum free and clear of the crazy people!
:P
Now anyone who has seen me post before knows that I have always advocated a 'live and let live' attitude. In fact I don't really see what all the fuss is about. Putting out attacks over a game seems awfully silly to me. If you enjoy 4E, then by all means, play it until the wheels drop off. I have no philosophical problem with the game engine, I just choose not to use it for my own personal reasons. I DO take umbrage at the fact that in one instance you set yourself up as a monitor of people who attack others on the WotC boards, yet you feel justified in making an ad hominem attack on Markus Tay because he is posting here. That smacks of hypocrisy in my opinion. It is all right to make a personal attack here? Why are there two separate standards?
Sanishiver if the WotC boards need your assistance to stay decent and respectful, then by all means keep on with your monitoring. Just please don't come to this forum and make attacks that you would decry if you were in your 'home turf'. It doesn't advance your case at all, and just makes you look like a cyberstalker when you gloat about getting someone banned.
How about it sounds positively House Committee on Un-American Activities-like?I think you mean HUAC; House Un-American Activities Committee. That's the way I've seen it. and sorry if that seems like splitting hairs; I'm a big fan of the monkey avatar! I tend to lurk your posts.
You are most likely right Zeugma, I wikied it to get the proper name of it (I like to fact check) but Wikipedia can be a spotty reference sometimes (but sooo damn convenient!)
Sanishiver:
And where a poster is reporting a factual error that it is impossible to be positive about- for example if a Forgotten Realms author writes in a Forgotten Realms novel that a leading NPC was in one place at one time, whilst an official Forgotten Realms game product has already stated that he was elsewhere at that time- what does your group do about such criticism that an author got something wrong?
Excellent question!
You say “impossible to be positive about.” That’s not entirely true. Someone writing criticism that points out the error, references the relevant sources to show the contradiction, then closes off their post with a request that WotC step it up and quit with the errors....that sounds positive to me.
On the other hand, someone who posts, “...this error is just another example of lax WotC quality control. They obviously don’t care about fact checking, are only interested in making money and are willing to hire no-talent hacks on the side to write for them. Speaking of hacks, we should boycott all of Author X’s work because it’s crap,” well then one of us will drop the dime.
We don’t have a problem with criticism so far as I know. How it’s presented, though.....well there’s a huge number of ways it can be presented, from acceptable by most people to unacceptable just about anywhere. That’s where we come in.
Our other response is to try and turn the conversation to ways to resolve the incongruity and fix the lore. Most people just like to focus on the fact that an error was even made, so this doesn’t always work.
Putting out attacks over a game seems awfully silly to me.
Me too.
I DO take umbrage at the fact that in one instance you set yourself up as a monitor of people who attack others on the WotC boards, yet you feel justified in making an ad hominem attack on Markus Tay because he is posting here. That smacks of hypocrisy in my opinion....
I suppose it comes down to where you draw the line. You seem to think that anyone who professes to wanting positive change must adhere to their credo 100% at all times and in all places. Thus, if I don’t like people being aggressively attacked on the FR Forums then I shouldn’t be doing it on any other forum, in any way, shape or form, right?
Thus your conclusion of hypocrisy.
But was I being hypocritical as you suggest? No, I don’t think so. This is because there’s no dichotomy here, nor ad hominem.
Markus actively contributed to the negativity on the FR Forums. That’s what got him temporarily booted. He’s even said (on this thread) that he was surprised they hadn't banned him yet. He made public attacks on people over a game, admitted to it and then laughed it off like it's all some big joke...so yeah, I find that annoying and a little crazy.
The old maxim is to kill them with kindness, but sometimes you just have to call it like you see it. I don’t have a problem razzing a guy for being a bonehead.
The thing is, nobody is perfect, least of all me. We make mistakes and get second chances.
I know Markus will come back to the FR Forums because he’s got more to contribute and he's a good guy. He’ll give us his custom maps and find a way to bring something positive, just like he's done before.
Now that he has the FRCG in his hands, it’ll infect him for the better, methinks.
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Some stuff... some disturbing stuff...
So does your organization have a compound or something? (I jest!)
I had to go read the thread just to see what the hubbub was about. It's the same old thing that was being argued about long ago. Good to see that there weren't any surprises in the FRCG. I have looked through it, and again the best thing I can say about it is they have some good graphic designers. As for content... well, I had trouble actually finding any. There was a lot of gigantic writing, but not any real substance. Then I got this weird twitching behind my right eye... I am not sure if it was the gigantic font or the experience itself that caused it, though. :)
Nice cover, btw, Markus. I am sure not all of the authors are hacks. In fact, I quite like Ed Greenwood's writing. Does anyone know of anywhere that it lists who submitted what to the book?
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I downloaded a copy of 4e, and quickly decided I wanted the 2 hours of my life back from reading it.. then I gave it another chance, seeing as maybe I was suffering from the same syndrome as 3.0 when it came out, and bought the 3 core books.. after downloading FR for 4e, I'm..
using my 4e books as firestarter for my uncle's cabin woodburning stove.
I DO take umbrage at the fact that in one instance you set yourself up as a monitor of people who attack others on the WotC boards, yet you feel justified in making an ad hominem attack on Markus Tay because he is posting here. That smacks of hypocrisy in my opinion....I suppose it comes down to where you draw the line. You seem to think that anyone who professes to wanting positive change must adhere to their credo 100% at all times and in all places. Thus, if I don’t like people being aggressively attacked on the FR Forums then I shouldn’t be doing it on any other forum, in any way, shape or form, right?
Thus your conclusion of hypocrisy.
But was I being hypocritical as you suggest? No, I don’t think so. This is because there’s no dichotomy here, nor ad hominem.
Markus actively contributed to the negativity on the FR Forums. That’s what got him temporarily booted. He’s even said (on this thread) that he was surprised they hadn't banned him yet. He made public attacks on people over a game, admitted to it and then laughed it off like it's all some big joke...so yeah, I find that annoying and a little crazy.
The old maxim is to kill them with kindness, but sometimes you just have to call it like you see it. I don’t have a problem razzing a guy for being a bonehead.
The thing is, nobody is perfect, least of all me. We make mistakes and get second chances.
I know Markus will come back to the FR Forums because he’s got more to contribute and he's a good guy. He’ll give us his custom maps and find a way to bring something positive, just like he's done before.
Now that he has the FRCG in his hands, it’ll infect him for the better, methinks.
I suppose we must agree to disagree then. You seem to feel calling someone crazy isn't a personal attack. As someone who has a severely mentally handicapped daughter I would posit that the word "crazy" is a fairly hurtful word. Is Markus Tay a little over the top and angry? Obviously. Does that make him crazy? Hardly.
As for hypocrisy, my interpretation of the word is when you espouse a certain creed that you obviously spend an awful lot of time defending, i.e, the goal to "keep the forum free of crazy people" yet you come to another RPG board and post a personal attack on someone and then post a long justification as to why you got Markus Tay banned from the WotC forums because of the personal attacks he was using. That smacks of hypocrisy to me, but of course, your opinion may vary.
Hypocrisy:
1. a pretense of having a virtuous character, moral or religious beliefs or principles, etc., that one does not really possess.
2. a pretense of having some desirable or publicly approved attitude.
3. an act or instance of hypocrisy.
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Ha! Just glad someone else is getting kicked for once. :-)*kicks MarkusTay while he's down*
And that! Wait a minute... You're not Logue... Dammit!*scurries off*
:p
(IMO, being banned from the Wizards forums isn't much of a loss. That place has been going down hill for a long time - too many asshats floating around for my tastes)
LOGUE IS HERE GET HIM GUYS
*kick kick kick*
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I can't say it was my efforts alone that caused the ban. We were working as a team via PM and you just happened to be on my watch list.
-So...let me get this straight you and some other people have watch lists? What are you the WotC neiborhood watch or something. Are you guys like somekinda secret society? Are you guys like the Masons, do you guys have a special handshake.
-Get a life!
18DELTA
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I can't say it was my efforts alone that caused the ban. We were working as a team via PM and you just happened to be on my watch list.-So...let me get this straight you and some other people have watch lists? What are you the WotC neiborhood watch or something. Are you guys like somekinda secret society? Are you guys like the Masons, do you guys have a special handshake.
-Get a life!
18DELTA
Dude.
CHILL THE F$@+ OUT.
I mean, I'm just as much of an anarchist as you are, but still...
1. This isn't going anywhere. Rants like that are NOT going to make Wizards change their policies. In fact, you're probably doing your part to validate said policies. I don't like large corporations either, and I don't like people getting in my way. However, that's the way America works, and we have to live with it. And please don't make any references to certain works by George Orwell, it's getting very old.
2. If you don't like the WotC boards, but you still have rules questions, you can go HERE.
3. It's a bloody game. Don't take it so seriously.
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I can't say it was my efforts alone that caused the ban. We were working as a team via PM and you just happened to be on my watch list.
That's just about the creepiest thing I've read on these forums, including everything Nick Logue has ever said.
Cyberstalking! It's not just for skeevy pedos anymore!
As matter of fact, I want to state that I feel much better about my self esteem, now that I've read this ridiculous thread....
