Wisdom

[Roman]

The Wisdom ability score is a hodge-podge of traits utterly non-sensically brought under one roof. Wisdom, as it exists in D&D or Pathfinder, represents at least the following four unconnected attributes:

Enlightened Insight
Common Sense
Physical Senses
Willpower

These traits have essentially nothing to do with one another. The word 'Wisdom' is in itself only suitable for representing the first two. Yes, out of the necessity of relative simplicity all ability scores are amalgations of characteristics that fit together less than perfectly. The implementation of isdom, though, is the worst offender by far and I have never been able to make myself fully comfortable with it.

I know that the Pathfinder RPG cannot rethink Wisdom and even more surely cannot split it up into other ability scores. That would break compatibility and aggravate many people who consider the six ability scores sarcosanct. I guess I just feel the need to express my frustration with the Wisdom ability score as written. Does anybody else feel similarly?

Note: Of course, in my home games, I feel free to modify this ability score as I see fit, such as spliting it up...

[Montalve]

if you really really check

EVERY attribute could be split in 2 if really needed... someone was compaining for charisma having also "appearance and looks" included, intelligence could be aither cunning or academic insight, dexterity is about withs and nimbleness (actually agility and dexterity are 2 very different things)

while i understand your disagreement, i also believe they neededa compromsie, Will or Wisdom is ok with me

remember just a bit of suspension disbelief does wonders

[sowhereaminow]

The split ability score concept was actually used in the Skills and Powers era of 2nd Edition. It was actually a decent system for representing the dual aspects of most of the ability scores. You could have up to a four point different between the two halves of the ability scores, which modified different aspects of game play. You could have an 18 dexterity for initiative purposes representing a quick reflexes, but a 14 Dexterity for ranged attack rolls representing a lesser skill with accuracy.

Overall a neat idea, although it does involve a bit more work to keep track of which modifier would apply in what situation.

Honestly, it's probably a bit outside the scope of Beta playtest, but could be a really fun house rule.

Thanks for reading.

[BrokenShade]

Roman wrote:

The Wisdom ability score is a hodge-podge of traits utterly non-sensically brought under one roof. Wisdom, as it exists in D&D or Pathfinder, represents at least the following four unconnected attributes:

Enlightened Insight
Common Sense
Physical Senses
Willpower

These traits have essentially nothing to do with one another.

I'm not so sure, and I think Wisdom fits each.

(1) If you are wise, you have enlightened insight and common sense.
(2) If you are wise, you use your physical senses better. Not that they are better, but you pay more attention to them ... and to what is going on around you.
(3) Wisdom is, as per the banana peel example in AD&D 1st, applied knowledge. This takes willpower. Doing the wise thing when others pressure you not to, takes willpower.

So all of these can - at least in the senses above - fit under Wisdom.

Roman wrote:

I just feel the need to express my frustration with the Wisdom ability score as written

Can't blame you there. ^_^

I think if you want proper attributes, you need at least 9 of them as per White Wolf or Rolemaster. When I designed attributes for my home brew (note that I later dropped attributes altogether) my favourites were

Prowress
Agility
Dexterity
Endurance
Perception
Willpower
Intelligence
Intuition
Charisma

[Kyrinn S. Eis]

IMHO, the Willpower aspect should be a function of Charisma, which already states that it is Force of Personality.

If that change were made, then, I've also proposed that saves operate thusly:

* FORT: Str or Con
* REF : Dex or Wis
* WILL: Int or Cha

Str for FORT just because I think it makes great sense that a hulking creature should be able to withstand a lot of abuse.

Wis for REF due to the Intuition aspect.

Int or Cha for WILL because if you realise you are being tempted/controlled it ought to count for something, and if you are just such a cantankerous cuss your force of personality (Cha) should be able to give you an edge.

I realise that this is similar to 4nother RPG out there, but if I'm not mistaken an earlier version (2nd) used something similar in its Skills and Powers books.

Comments, ideas?

[Arovyn]

Kyrinn S. Eis wrote:

IMHO, the Willpower aspect should be a function of Charisma, which already states that it is Force of Personality.

If that change were made, then, I've also proposed that saves operate thusly:

* FORT: Str or Con
* REF : Dex or Wis
* WILL: Int or Cha

Str for FORT just because I think it makes great sense that a hulking creature should be able to withstand a lot of abuse.

Wis for REF due to the Intuition aspect.

Int or Cha for WILL because if you realise you are being tempted/controlled it ought to count for something, and if you are just such a cantankerous cuss your force of personality (Cha) should be able to give you an edge.

I realise that this is similar to 4nother RPG out there, but if I'm not mistaken an earlier version (2nd) used something similar in its Skills and Powers books.

Comments, ideas?

I don't disagree with willpower being a function of Charisma. Charisma is force of personalty and it's also our means of relating to ourselves. Threats against our will is countered by our force of personality. Your split there, is almost the same as 4E which uses Str or Con for Fort, Dex or Int for Ref, and Wis or Cha for Will.

Personally, I've always seen it like this: Body - Str and Con. Mind - Dex and Int. Soul - Wis and Cha.

Arovyn