Right here..
This may appear twice...I hate it when a post gets eaten!
(And I am paraphrasing this one...I hate typing it twice!)
Thanks for the link!
The best I can say is that we are arguing two different frames of reference. This article was written nearly one year ago and does mention points of light as a concept.
I have been refering to "Points of Light" as described in the DMG. It references it 5 times...4 of which are talking about places that act as 'relatively' safe havens for adventurers. The other references other cities/civilizations existing that would still not be "Points of Light" (i.e. a goblin city is not really a safe haven for a non-goblin party).
The "Points of Light" in the DMG is simply one aspect of what they term 'assumptions that are made of about the world'. These other assumptions are moot when talking about an actual campaign setting that lays out the world for you.
Dude, I was simply throwing out some ideas...not claiming they are perfect, but it's what I can do on a Friday afternoon while dodging any real work :)Let me address some of your concerns (again, these are simply some quick ideas) :
Dragons using Dragonborn in battles: I wasn;t thinking about battles across the globe. More along the lines of using them in battles on their continent. Something the majority of humankind may know nothing about.
Sending them forth: No where does it mention that the 'entire race' has taken up residence anywhere. They could be delegations sent forth, ambassadors, whatever. Different groups could represent different dragons. Lots of different reasons.
Slaves: Is it really that much of a stretch? Why do they need slaves? Because they are at the top of the food chain...that's why! :). Why would they sully themselves with more minor tasks? (This has been a staple of a lot of fantasy). As for leaving, see the above comment about it not being all of them. Maybe an underground railroad type system has existed and they have kept themselves hidden, but now the numbers are such that being hidden is no longer an option. Perhaps Dragonborn have just recently started developing Dragonmarks and the Dragons (while disagreeing on the interpretation of the Prophecy, all agreeing on it's...
Okay here's why your "quick ideas" don't work. Because using the dragonborn as a slave race that has gone mysteriously unmentioned in previous books, doesn't fly.
Yes it is a stretch, again, never mentioned, what minor tasks would they use slaves for that their magic couldn't do, easier, more reliably, and with no upkeep like food and board.
If the dragonborn get marks, I'm sorry but that's a stupid idea.
As for anything else, you're missing an underlying concern, I can see using the odd dragonborn in Eberron, but they are going to add them in as whole other race (I doubt they'll keep them small in number, see FR) and so you HAVE to account for an entire race showing up somewhere we're a large number of PCs would hail from
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Right here..This may appear twice...I hate it when a post gets eaten!
(And I am paraphrasing this one...I hate typing it twice!)
Thanks for the link!
The best I can say is that we are arguing two different frames of reference. This article was written nearly one year ago and does mention points of light as a concept.
I have been refering to "Points of Light" as described in the DMG. It references it 5 times...4 of which are talking about places that act as 'relatively' safe havens for adventurers. The other references other cities/civilizations existing that would still not be "Points of Light" (i.e. a goblin city is not really a safe haven for a non-goblin party).
The "Points of Light" in the DMG is simply one aspect of what they term 'assumptions that are made of about the world'. These other assumptions are moot when talking about an actual campaign setting that lays out the world for you.
Points of light may only be referenced 5 times in the DMG, but there are countless design journals, podcasts, website articles, message board posts, etc explaining the points of light theme for 4e. Eberron is a square peg for the PoL round hole.
Heck so was the realms to about an equal degree. They blew up the realms which may have been more than they needed to do, but they certainly won't leave Eberron untouched. Substantial changes will have to be made to make it fit the PoL motif & the 4e races/classes. The problem I think others were trying to express is that it appears that the 1st question Wotc asked was "how the changes should be made" not "if they should be made."
I think I provided several ways to insert the dragonborn into Eberron in a variety of ways from minimal impact to large impact upon the world that didn't resort to " Hey! look at what thing we just found!" As a core race they would have some effect on history of the world. Nor, would it be that outlandish for them to play a role in the prophecy.As far as rewriting history, dont we as Dm's or players do that all the time? We change facts of the world to suit our needs. Don't like the fact that Myrkul got killed in the time of troubles? etc and so on and so forth. If you don't want Dragonborn in 4e Eberron don't use them, but you did ask how it could be done. We shared some ideas (whether they be bad or good is up to each person).
In 4e Dragonborn once served/worked with/respected Dragons. Its not that far fetched to continue that trend in Eberron. If the saying "An ally of my enemy is an ally" is true, that wouldn't "An ally of an Ally is an ally." hold true as well? Dragonborn in their generic back story would tend to work with Dragons on a daily basis (for whatever reasons be is worship, respect, or force).
As a more monstrous appearing race they would also fit into Droaam (and other less civilized areas) in modern day Eberron. They would be good hired muscles known for being loyal and honor bound ( and during the last war maybe they didn't turn against employers cementing that reputation).
Edit: Also I am not saying you have to...
You may think that but you'd be wrong, adding dragonborn to Q'barra to replace lizardfolk? Putting them in the Shadow Marches to supplement the Gatekeepers? Both without any previous mention of the race, it doesn't work.
And yes, WE as DMs change the world to suit our needs, having the company try to retrofit a setting to fit in with a "new idea" is just wrong, and leads to poor stories with numerous plotholes.
All your options fail to meet to my concern, which as I mentioned before, but I'll put again so I'm clear:
Adding a whole new race to any setting on a large scale (which is what they are going to do, I'd bet my kidney) cannot be done without a cheesy plotline or complete rework of history.
Adding a whole new race to any setting on a large scale (which is what they are going to do, I'd bet my kidney) cannot be done without a cheesy plotline or complete rework of history.
I'm just putting you on warning that I've always wanted a third kidney. ;)
I think I provided several ways to insert the dragonborn into Eberron in a variety of ways from minimal impact to large impact upon the world that didn't resort to " Hey! look at what thing we just found!" As a core race they would have some effect on history of the world. Nor, would it be that outlandish for them to play a role in the prophecy.As far as rewriting history, dont we as Dm's or players do that all the time? We change facts of the world to suit our needs. Don't like the fact that Myrkul got killed in the time of troubles? etc and so on and so forth. If you don't want Dragonborn in 4e Eberron don't use them, but you did ask how it could be done. We shared some ideas (whether they be bad or good is up to each person).
In 4e Dragonborn once served/worked with/respected Dragons. Its not that far fetched to continue that trend in Eberron. If the saying "An ally of my enemy is an ally" is true, that wouldn't "An ally of an Ally is an ally." hold true as well? Dragonborn in their generic back story would tend to work with Dragons on a daily basis (for whatever reasons be is worship, respect, or force).
As a more monstrous appearing race they would also fit into Droaam (and other less civilized areas) in modern day Eberron. They would be good hired muscles known for being loyal and honor bound ( and during the last war maybe they didn't turn against employers cementing that reputation).
Edit: Also I am not saying you have to...
You may think that but you'd be wrong, adding dragonborn to Q'barra to replace lizardfolk? Putting them in the Shadow Marches to supplement the Gatekeepers? Both without any previous mention of the race, it doesn't work.
And yes, WE as DMs change the world to suit our needs, having the company try to retrofit a setting to fit in with a "new idea" is just wrong, and leads to poor stories with numerous plotholes.
All your options fail to meet to my concern, which as I mentioned before, but I'll put again so I'm clear:
Adding a...
Theoretically, isn't your argument that because they haven't existed before specifically, they can not exist now? So ergo, no idea no matter how brilliant would address that concern?
The only answer I can give to that even in 3/5 anything that was in D&D had a place in Eberron.
Oh, and I might be wrong about this, but I think your biased about the Q'barra Lizardfolk. :)
I'm just putting you on warning that I've always wanted a third kidney. ;)Adding a whole new race to any setting on a large scale (which is what they are going to do, I'd bet my kidney) cannot be done without a cheesy plotline or complete rework of history.
If WotC refrains from mutilating Eberron by trying to force all this new 4e stuff down it's throat, I will gladly mail it to you.
If WotC refrains from mutilating Eberron by trying to force all this new 4e stuff down it's throat, I will gladly mail it to you.
Heads, I get no kidney but a non-mutilated Eberron, tails, mutilated Eberron but third kidney! It's win-win for me!
Woot! :P
Theoretically, isn't your argument that because they haven't existed before specifically, they can not exist now? So ergo, no idea no matter how brilliant would address that concern?
The only answer I can give to that even in 3/5 anything that was in D&D had a place in Eberron.
Oh, and I might be wrong about this, but I think your biased about the Q'barra Lizardfolk. :)
No I'm saying that they haven't existed before so therefore having an assload arrive out of nowhere is a bad idea. And if you had a "brilliant idea" that would explain how a whole new race just showed up then I would conceed, but you haven't so.
Everything has a place in Eberron, that doesn't mean it has to have a large place (again, my concern is not the dragonborn in small numbers, but the how they are going to try and put a whole new culture in the middle of the setting)
And yes I do like the lizardfolk, and suggesting we remove one race to replace with a new shinier race just struck me as the poor thought processes that went on before they said, "Hey, all the FR lore is baggage let's scrap it and do something else."
Hmm.
I like Eberron. I won't be buying any 4E Eberron products. Guess I'll just move forward on my own from here.
What I've read so far about 4E Eberron sucks. WotC seems so fixated on homogeneity, points of light, making sure their core races are everywhere even when they shouldn't be, etc. that they're willing to screw things up to make it fit their vision.
If I was an FR fan, I'd have been irritated about FR. As an Eberron fan I am irritated about Eberron.
In fact, the whole thing gives me a slightly foul taste in my mouth about 4E. I like 4E, but if 4E is going to be the cause of WotC making stupid decisions to get everything to "conform," then I'm going to grow to dislike it.
This doesn't bode well for future setting releases. How much are they going to have to torture these other settings to get everything from 4E into them? Why not just pick and choose the elements of 4E that fit with the setting and leave the rest out? That's the beauty of various settings - they're DIFFERENT.
Let me guess, Strahd has always secretly had dragonborn servants, only no one ever knew it, and now they're going to be released onto the world of Ravenloft! heh.
Ravenloft is actually a setting where you can add new stuff whole cloth. Just add a new realm and deathlord. It does happen from time to time after all.
Here's hoping 4E Planescape holds to that.
Actually, here's hoping 4E skips Planescape altogether. Sorry Dark Sun, Spelljammer, and Mystara fans. I like those settings too, but I'm willing to throw them in front of the bus to save my precious.
My precious...
Mikaze, I have bad news for you :'(
<from Kobold Quarterly 5 interview with 4E designers>
I’m working on the section on Sigil right now, and In the Cage is open on my lap. Hurray, confirmation that Planescape survives into 4E!
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
Points of light may only be referenced 5 times in the DMG, but there are countless design journals, podcasts, website articles, message board posts, etc explaining the points of light theme for 4e. Eberron is a square peg for the PoL round hole.Heck so was the realms to about an equal degree. They blew up the realms which may have been more than they needed to do, but they certainly won't leave Eberron untouched. Substantial changes will have to be made to make it fit the PoL motif & the 4e races/classes. The problem I think others were trying to express is that it appears that the 1st question Wotc asked was "how the changes should be made" not "if they should be made."
Well, I can only state that my points have been made based on the DMG, not on other sources that are out there. I just think that this is a big debate on a one-line comment made in the article mentioned by the OP. Because of all of the different definitions out there, it is hard to debate what they actually meant by it.
Okay here's why your "quick ideas" don't work. Because using the dragonborn as a slave race that has gone mysteriously unmentioned in previous books, doesn't fly.Yes it is a stretch, again, never mentioned, what minor tasks would they use slaves for that their magic couldn't do, easier, more reliably, and with no upkeep like food and board.
If the dragonborn get marks, I'm sorry but that's a stupid idea.
As for anything else, you're missing an underlying concern, I can see using the odd dragonborn in Eberron, but they are going to add them in as whole other race (I doubt they'll keep them small in number, see FR) and so you HAVE to...
Wow...so much for the open discussion and sharing of ideas ;)
So really, if an idea didn't exist in the original Eberron Sourcebook, it cannot be introduced at a later time? If it is simply the scope then maybe debate should be shelved until it is discovered how they are actually introduced.
As for my ideas, while they may not work for you, that doesn't invalidate them. I have more issues with Gnomes not being in the PHB while being a major race in Eberron than with them introducing Dragonborn into Eberron.
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Here's hoping 4E Planescape holds to that.
Actually, here's hoping 4E skips Planescape altogether. Sorry Dark Sun, Spelljammer, and Mystara fans. I like those settings too, but I'm willing to throw them in front of the bus to save my precious.
My precious...
Mikaze, I have bad news for you :'(
<from Kobold Quarterly 5 interview with 4E designers>
I’m working on the section on Sigil right now, and In the Cage is open on my lap. Hurray, confirmation that Planescape survives into 4E!Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
I'm holding out hope that what he really meant was that little blurb Sigil got in the core books, kind of like how Planescape technically made it into 3.x even though it was stripped of most of its flavor and downright wrong in the head about some details(like giving the Lady of Pain even minimal stats. NO. YOU DO NOT DO THAT.)
It's not much, but it's all I got. :(
I'm holding out hope that what he really meant was that little blurb Sigil got in the core books, kind of like how Planescape technically made it into 3.x even though it was stripped of most of its flavor and downright wrong in the head about some details(like giving the Lady of Pain even minimal stats. NO. YOU DO NOT DO THAT.)
It's not much, but it's all I got. :(
Yeah I have to say the 2E original stuff is the best. Planescape never got a fair shake in 3E, but at least it wasn't too hard to retro fit it to the new rules (and there was Planewalker.com). It's funny how we are actually hoping they WON'T come up with new Planescape stuff, odd how the world works sometimes, no?
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Yeah I have to say the 2E original stuff is the best. Planescape never got a fair shake in 3E, but at least it wasn't too hard to retro fit it to the new rules (and there was Planewalker.com). It's funny how we are actually hoping they WON'T come up with new Planescape stuff, odd how the world works sometimes, no?
I'm holding out hope that what he really meant was that little blurb Sigil got in the core books, kind of like how Planescape technically made it into 3.x even though it was stripped of most of its flavor and downright wrong in the head about some details(like giving the Lady of Pain even minimal stats. NO. YOU DO NOT DO THAT.)
It's not much, but it's all I got. :(
Yeah, if it ain't broke, don't take a chainsaw to it I say.
And I hope Planewalker can keep on trucking. I don't know if a new fan-work policy would affect them or not if WotC did try Planescape again. Not sure how they're set up.
*link to blog entry where Keith posts about races*I have half an idea I've seen something else somewhere regarding the topic of Dragonborn & Eberron, but cannot currently pinpoint it. I'll try to edit (or post) if I find it!
Edit:
In a post part of the way down the first page of *this thread* Krauser_Levyl refers to a rumour regarding how dragons view dragonborn.
I always love it when other posters dig up proof supporting my rambling half remembered messages. Thanks Charles!
Reading that second one sure takes me back ... it seems like forever ago that Krauser posted that! I sure wished I had a cute dog that walked and talked like me (ok, maybe not, they'd probably be all backtalky ...)
Cheers! :)
Wow...so much for the open discussion and sharing of ideas ;)So really, if an idea didn't exist in the original Eberron Sourcebook, it cannot be introduced at a later time? If it is simply the scope then maybe debate should be shelved until it is discovered how they are actually introduced.
As for my ideas, while they may not work for you, that doesn't invalidate them. I have more issues with Gnomes not being in the PHB while being a major race in Eberron than with them introducing Dragonborn into Eberron.
So do you stop reading my post half-way through? Look, I'm sorry I don't like your ideas (not my fault they make no sense).
But, I didn't mention the Eberron sourcebooks, my concern does NOT lie in the introduction of dragonborn into the setting, but in the MASS introduction, having a whole new race just pop up, won't float. And none of your suggestions provided a way to introduce them on a large scale.
That said, I just read the Keith Baker blog about the races (see someone elses post for link), it fills me with cautious hope, he implies that the race is going to be rare. I'm cautious because I'm afraid they won't let that stand and try to find a way to put the dragonborn everywhere all at once.
Wow...so much for the open discussion and sharing of ideas ;)So really, if an idea didn't exist in the original Eberron Sourcebook, it cannot be introduced at a later time? If it is simply the scope then maybe debate should be shelved until it is discovered how they are actually introduced.
As for my ideas, while they may not work for you, that doesn't invalidate them. I have more issues with Gnomes not being in the PHB while being a major race in Eberron than with them introducing Dragonborn into Eberron.
I would have no problem with dragonborn being introduced. That is acceptable. If some mad wizard creates a small army of them, then looses control and is killed by them in a small part of a backwater part of the world, and they slowly over two year starts trickling outwards and make them selved know to the world, that makes a kind of sense. That does not hurt the setting, its an evolution, rather than grafting on something.
However, if you say, dragonborn are an intrigal part of sociaty X and have always been there, that stretchs suspencian of disbelief and damages a really cool setting.
At the end of the day, their was no need to add eladrin, new school teiflings or dragonborn into existing settings. If these this do not traditionally exist, it is better not to fool around with an existing and well loved setting.
However(imho), wizards made a truely fatal mistake. They looked at there products and said, forgotten realms makes us the most money, so we will use this as our flagship campaign setting. They then asked, how must we change the realms to demonstrate what 4e is about and what it can do. They are now doing the same to eberron.
It would have been far better to have given over this year to the developement of a new 4e specific campaign setting, and then trodden more softly with the existing campaign setting.
I would have no problem with dragonborn being introduced. That is acceptable. If some mad wizard creates a small army of them, then looses control and is killed by them in a small part of a backwater part of the world, and they slowly over two year starts trickling outwards and make them selved know to the world, that makes a kind of sense. That does not hurt the setting, its an evolution, rather than grafting on something.However, if you say, dragonborn are an intrigal part of sociaty X and have always been there, that stretchs suspencian of disbelief and damages a really cool setting.
I agree with you totally...my ideas were based on the idea of how to introduce Dragonborn to the populace of Eberron. Placing them in locations/situations where they would not have been seen before, but are starting to emerge now. The worst thing that could happen is that they retcon the world of Eberron to introduce the Dragonborn to say "Here they are...they were actually always a part of your society and history."
So do you stop reading my post half-way through? Look, I'm sorry I don't like your ideas (not my fault they make no sense).
But, I didn't mention the Eberron sourcebooks, my concern does NOT lie in the introduction of dragonborn into the setting, but in the MASS introduction, having a whole new race just pop up, won't float. And none of your suggestions provided a way to introduce them on a large scale.
That said, I just read the Keith Baker blog about the races (see someone elses post for link), it fills me with cautious hope, he implies that the race is going to be rare. I'm cautious because I'm afraid they won't let that stand and try to find a way to put the dragonborn everywhere all at once.
I get what you are saying, and I agree that introducing the whole race AND placing them in a spot in Eberron (both geopgraphically and historically) where the rest of the world would/should have noticed them before is a bad idea.
My ideas (no matter how much they don't 'make sense') were not based on that. They were based on ideas of how this race could be introduced to the populace of Eberron in such a way as to not just wave a wand and say "You just never noticed them before".
I guess it's now a game of wait and see...I hope you aren't too disappointed with what they come up with.
I haven't read that one yet, how do they explain the new race? Or do they just appear?
They already have added the Dragonborn, they show up about a third into the Dragon Forge novel. Soured me on that book real fast.I was afraid this was going to happen, the Forgotten Realms dies a quick "100 year jump" death, but Eberron will die the death of a 1000 edits, one DDI article at a time.
In the story, our hero goes to Argonnessen to learn more about the Prophecy and runs into two tribes of Dragonborn. Unfortunately, I have not had the time or the desire to go back to that book since then.
But I can handle Dragonborn on Dragon Island, how do you explain all these Dragonborn suddenly on Khorvaire?
In the story, our hero goes to Argonnessen to learn more about the Prophecy and runs into two tribes of Dragonborn. Unfortunately, I have not had the time or the desire to go back to that book since then.But I can handle Dragonborn on Dragon Island, how do you explain all these Dragonborn suddenly on Khorvaire?
The thing is, for all we know, those two tribes are it. Even if your entire group decided to be Dragonborn, we are talking what, 5-8 Dragonborn? Perhaps that all there is on the entire continent of Khorvaire.
Until we get a better idea on what they are actually planning, most of these discussions are actually pretty abstract.
Eberron absolutely uses the Points of Light model. It has five points of light, in fact. And there's some doubt about Karrnath.
I really like the Eberron scenario. It was what drew me back playing D&D after not playing for many many years. I cannot speak for other players but the vanilla D&D scenario, of some vaguely European Tolkeen-like, trapped in the dark ages world, bored me to tears. I couldn't find anything new and fresh about that scenario.
In contrast, when I read the Eberrron books, I could a hundred hooks I could warp in to an adventure.
While I really enjoy the new 4.0 game play, I’m already balking at the "Points of Light" and other vanilla D&D assumptions. That has been done to death. There is no fun, no adventure, not magic in that.
It would stupid for them to want to flatten all the scenarios into the same bland set of assumptions with only cosmetic differences.
I also don't have a problem with them re writing the Eberron source book to include the new races. I'd love if they swapped out the Tieflings for the Psionic race that never seemed to work. Call it a total reboot and use what came before as guide but not a hard and fast requirement.
I’m old enough and stubborn enough to want to pick and choose what I use. Use the best stuff and apply house rules when I think the powers-that-be got it wrong.
As some one who has not played in a long time, I don't get the upset over them adding new races. But maybe you all are upset that they are messing with continuity. You have a whole history in your head for Eberron it and doesn't inlcude things tike Teiflings and DragonBorn and so on.
I suppose it's like when DC comics decided to completly reboot the Legion of Superheroes, negating 30+ years of history and continuity.
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Some new Eberron stuff on Wizards site. Nothing much. Only REALLY annoying thing is the forcing of the points of light on Eberron. I mean, have they even read the campaign setting? Clearly not. The Last War did NOT turn Eberron into a points of light setting, not with lightning rails and giant metropolises.Where is this to be found?
Right, if they do a forgotten realms on Eberron, i simple will not be buying anything else from wizards. Eberron is a beautiful and unexpectedly wonderful campaign setting that only works, because of its mature attitude towards international politics, greyscale morality, international trade and the archoilogicial rape of ancient civilisations. It is not a points of light setting how ever ravaged the world maybe. It is not a simple setting and it should not be potrayed as one. Why can't they just leave an 'adult' setting in place?
What makes this worse is that, in many ways , i think Eberron is the setting that would work best with the 4E rules set. I can just see a two fisted pulp artificer, punching his way through goblin mooks to get back to his Airship.
look at my post above yours... has a link..
And this is what they say about points of light..
Points of Light: The Last War already brings this philosophy to the setting, with centers of civilization surrounded by large areas of uninhabited space. This is not entirely the humans' land.
WotC have become enforcers for the Tyranny of Equality. From WotC's standpoint all settings must be playable by all age groups, all races, powers, etc. must be made equal or else. If WotC ran the Louvre picasso, Monet and the other freat artists would be repainted to resemble Family Guy so the majority of people could understand the painting without having to think. Selling to the lowest common denominator works with games like Monopoly, risk and such but not for for games that requires imaginenation. WotC should consider an adult imprint for D&D so the players who arn't teens can have settings and products with heavier substance to them.
WotC have become enforcers for the Tyranny of Equality. From WotC's standpoint all settings must be playable by all age groups, all races, powers, etc. must be made equal or else.
That sounds like they are going the GURPS route, so game play is roughly the same across all scenarios. I don't have a problem with that. A 120 point wizard vs a 120 pt norm vs 120 pt super vs 120 pt alien would still be roughly equal in combat and game play.
But if they are trying to flatten all the D&D versions into the same theme, that's just boring. That would be like all the GURPS universes being simplied where every adventure was in a post-collapse-of-civilization kingdom, where magic, tech and powers were rare and or stunted and mosters lurked outside the gates, be it a sword and sorcery, cyberpunk, space, uplift or supers game.
It seems like a plan to kill the franchise from boredom. If they do, I see them loosing market share as people hack the game back into something fun or abandon it for something that's more fun.
With regards to points of light: This just isn't true. Their certainly are places which conform to the ideas of the points of light model, however, even monsterous lands in Eberron have a degree of organisation, and most of the large nations, despite refugee problems and some scaring still have relatively in tact infrastructures. Also, long distance and luxury travel are reatively cheap rates is common in Eberron, thanks to airships and lightning rail.
I guess I just have a different understanding of the PoL idea, or maybe I'm just more forgiving of the idea.
Airships and the LR seem to me to encourage the idea of the lawless wilderness to a point. I'll grant that some places should be SPOTLIGHTS of light, but I don't think that PoL really ever argues against that. There have to be a few big cities where great things happen...that's just standard Fantasy Fare.
But back to my point, it's a little like the interstates now. If you stop your car and start walking into the hills, the further you get from the highway, the more alien the place seems. The larger the patch of unclaimed ground, the more likely it is that you'll be further from help. That's what PoL represents to me.
Someone said it right earlier. Rivers of light. The LR is a bright ribbon that stretches between larger lakes. The further you get from that ribbon, and the further that ribbon gets from a big city the more dangerous it becomes. The dimmer the ribbon. The less light it provides. And in places where there isn't a lot of light, lots of things can happen.
I'm not an Eberron junkie, I'll admit, but IMO that really does describe the world pretty well. heck, it describes most fantasy worlds pretty well.
With regards to points of light: This just isn't true. Their certainly are places which conform to the ideas of the points of light model, however, even monsterous lands in Eberron have a degree of organisation, and most of the large nations, despite refugee problems and some scaring still have relatively in tact infrastructures. Also, long distance and luxury travel are reatively cheap rates is common in Eberron, thanks to airships and lightning rail.I guess I just have a different understanding of the PoL idea, or maybe I'm just more forgiving of the idea.
Airships and the LR seem to me to encourage the idea of the lawless wilderness to a point. I'll grant that some places should be SPOTLIGHTS of light, but I don't think that PoL really ever argues against that. There have to be a few big cities where great things happen...that's just standard Fantasy Fare.
But back to my point, it's a little like the interstates now. If you stop your car and start walking into the hills, the further you get from the highway, the more alien the place seems. The larger the patch of unclaimed ground, the more likely it is that you'll be further from help. That's what PoL represents to me.
Someone said it right earlier. Rivers of light. The LR is a bright ribbon that stretches between larger lakes. The further you get from that ribbon, and the further that ribbon gets from a big city the more dangerous it becomes. The dimmer the ribbon. The less light it provides. And in places where there isn't a lot of light, lots of things can happen.
I'm not an Eberron junkie, I'll admit, but IMO that really does describe the world pretty well. heck, it describes most fantasy worlds pretty well.
Please do not think i am anti points of light, i am far from it. The roleplaying game i cut my teeth on back when i was a child was warhammer fantasy roleplay, which rivals ravenloft as the poster boy for this theme.
In points of light, walking a quarter mile form the village stockade is a dangerous endevour, families snuggle around there fires at night, cut off from the world at large by badly maintained and dangerous roads. Wild beasts and savage, innately evil creatures harress travellers. Massive forests stand between the major cities of the world. Heros are the only hope because the autorities are so busy just trying to keep things getting worse.
In many ways, even varisa behaves like a points of light setting, and i am not complaigning about that.
But, when organised(if war torn) kingdoms, with defined boarders, standing armies, systems of law, reliable international communications, extra-territorial corperations in the form of the dragonmarked houses and speedy and relatively safe internation and intercontiental travel. are described as points of light, i cant help but smirk.
This is a cold war setting, with themes more closely related to what might be found in a Len Deighton novel or a film noir classic than a game of ravenloft.
Outlighing towns in kingdoms, pay there taxes, have there young men go of to fight in world wars and around harvest time, watch their grain get taken to market in elemental wagons on relatively well maintained roads.
Their are frontiers and wilderness, bloody great ones, but they are at the edge of civilisation and across the sea, not in the gaps, between frightened villages.
Their are frontiers and wilderness, bloody great ones, but they are at the edge of civilisation and across the sea, not in the gaps, between frightened villages.
But this is still Fantasy Trope 101, and there almost have to be lawless areas in between the villages.
Let me say that I think my fundamental problem with your fundamental problem (as I see it anyway) is the notion that the blackness is pushing back so strongly.
Much like a light illuminates many things past the area of good vision, so do our PoL. Even in the default setting I can imagine an entire kingdom that is dominated by a capital so bright that the entire place is at least marginally safe...and I can see that double in Eberron. As you say, most of the continent was mobilized for war and everyone remembers that, so the woods a quarter mile from the village are safe. 3 or 4 or 20 miles away though, you might run into a band of disgruntled goblins, or some abomination come to life slowly spreading its corruption through the woods.
See, armies or not...wars or not, people don't generally go where they have no reason to go, and people just don't have a lot of reason to stray off the rail, or the well-patrolled roads, or far from the cultivated croplands. A lot of stuff can happen in those gray areas where the Points are a little dimmer.
Maybe the only places it really gets dark are the frontiers, but even heroic tier characters need a place to level up :)
Their are frontiers and wilderness, bloody great ones, but they are at the edge of civilisation and across the sea, not in the gaps, between frightened villages.
But this is still Fantasy Trope 101, and there almost have to be lawless areas in between the villages.
Let me say that I think my fundamental problem with your fundamental problem (as I see it anyway) is the notion that the blackness is pushing back so strongly.
Much like a light illuminates many things past the area of good vision, so do our PoL. Even in the default setting I can imagine an entire kingdom that is dominated by a capital so bright that the entire place is at least marginally safe...and I can see that double in Eberron. As you say, most of the continent was mobilized for war and everyone remembers that, so the woods a quarter mile from the village are safe. 3 or 4 or 20 miles away though, you might run into a band of disgruntled goblins, or some abomination come to life slowly spreading its corruption through the woods.
See, armies or not...wars or not, people don't generally go where they have no reason to go, and people just don't have a lot of reason to stray off the rail, or the well-patrolled roads, or far from the cultivated croplands. A lot of stuff can happen in those gray areas where the Points are a little dimmer.
Maybe the only places it really gets dark are the frontiers, but even heroic tier characters need a place to level up :)
For godsake....
It really is very simple.
points of light is based upon isolation.
Communities in korvera are not isolated, atleast not in any major kingdom. They have both good physicial and infomation based contact with most other places.
Saying eberron is Points of Light based, is like saying that pulp game, where yo go globe trotting to hunt lions on the africian survana one day and his a party in paris two days later is points of light.
For godsake....It really is very simple.
points of light is based upon isolation.
Communities in korvera are not isolated, atleast not in any major kingdom. They have both good physicial and infomation based contact with most other places.
Saying eberron is Points of Light based, is like saying that pulp game, where yo go globe trotting to hunt lions on the africian survana one day and his a party in paris two days later is points of light.
It's not that simple.
Your argument makes sense using that definition of Points of Light.
The argument that it does fit, is based on a different definition...one that Points of Lights refer to places of safety vs. places of danger existing in the world. It has nothing to do with borders, nothing to due with the ability to travel (via Lightning Rail, Airships, etc).
The problem is, the original statement that this discussion is based on a one line comment about Eberron following the concept of points of light. What we don't know is how the speaker of that comment meant it.
Personally, I hope that I am right...not because I want you to be wrong...but because I don't want Eberron turned into a savage wasteland.
It really is very simple.
points of light is based upon isolation.
Communities in korvera are not isolated, atleast not in any major kingdom. They have both good physicial and infomation based contact with most other places.
Saying eberron is Points of Light based, is like saying that pulp game, where yo go globe trotting to hunt lions on the africian survana one day and his a party in paris two days later is points of light.
Whatever. Whatever our differing viewpoints on the matter are, it's not worth getting frustrated about. I think it can be, and eventually will be, more than this, but I'll leave you to your certainties.
Whatever. Whatever our differing viewpoints on the matter are, it's not worth getting frustrated about. I think it can be, and eventually will be, more than this, but I'll leave you to your certainties.It really is very simple.
points of light is based upon isolation.
Communities in korvera are not isolated, atleast not in any major kingdom. They have both good physicial and infomation based contact with most other places.
Saying eberron is Points of Light based, is like saying that pulp game, where yo go globe trotting to hunt lions on the africian survana one day and his a party in paris two days later is points of light.
A certainty(as much as any oppinion can be one) based in what WotC have them selves said about what they mean by points of light, by being a fan of both eberron and points of lights settings. By being some one who considers theme to be a massively important element of what drives a games narrative.
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It's not that simple.
Your argument makes sense using that definition of Points of Light.
The argument that it does fit, is based on a different definition...one that Points of Lights refer to places of safety vs. places of danger existing in the world. It has nothing to do with borders, nothing to due with the ability to travel (via Lightning Rail, Airships, etc).
The problem is, the original statement that this discussion is based on a one line comment about Eberron following the concept of points of light. What we don't know is how the speaker of that comment meant it.
Personally, I hope that I am right...not because I want you to be wrong...but because I don't want Eberron turned into a savage wasteland.
I have to confess, I'm with zombie here, at least in terms of what the definition of 'points of light' seems to mean - isolated communities, difficult travel, and a very mean and hostile world in which civilisation is a very small part. I find that hard to reconcile with the Five Kingdoms and whatnot with lightning rail, and so on. I also find the Maltese Falcon element a bit hard to run with points of light as I understand it.
But it might be that the points of light will be emphasised away from the Five Kingdoms, which would work fine - Xendrik, Droaam, Q'barra, Darguun, Talenta Plains. These areas (with the possible exception of Xendrik, at least in part) have not been detailed much at all, and instead Khorvaire and Eberron has been largely defined by Sharn and the Five Nations, if only because they have had (probably rightly) had the most detail. Moreover, most PCs are from the Five Nations. Points oif light would run fine with the Indiana Jones element of Eberron.
Given what I heard vaguely to date, I doubt whether Eberron will be blown up the same way as the Realms were. My suspicion is that the difference, if any, will be in emphasis, away from the civilised lands and towards the less civilised. And even then, points of light seems to be only a bit of what they are talking about - for example, bringing the Last War more centre stage.
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WotC have become enforcers for the Tyranny of Equality. From WotC's standpoint all settings must be playable by all age groups, all races, powers, etc. must be made equal or else.That sounds like they are going the GURPS route, so game play is roughly the same across all scenarios. I don't have a problem with that. A 120 point wizard vs a 120 pt norm vs 120 pt super vs 120 pt alien would still be roughly equal in combat and game play.
But if they are trying to flatten all the D&D versions into the same theme, that's just boring. That would be like all the GURPS universes being simplied where every adventure was in a post-collapse-of-civilization kingdom, where magic, tech and powers were rare and or stunted and mosters lurked outside the gates, be it a sword and sorcery, cyberpunk, space, uplift or supers game.
It seems like a plan to kill the franchise from boredom. If they do, I see them loosing market share as people hack the game back into something fun or abandon it for something that's more fun.
balanced power levels for characters is a good thing but all characters having the same feel of play is wrong. Maybe when more and varied powers for 4.0 come out it could provide greater character flavor. My impresion is WotC are trying to force all there settings into one style of play making all campagins D&D vanilia. Not all campaign settings should have same overarching theams. Sometimes they souldn't even have the same races. I'm just asking for independent creative ideas for each setting. TSR managed to do this with Greyhawk & Forgoten Realms. Both are basically medieval fantasy worlds but there flavor makes each truly unique. Apply the points of light theme, add all the races & cosmology, end up with the same setting only different city and npc names.
I've been ruminating on why I like Eberron and I'm bored with vanilla D&D. If I had to pick the most important thing, it's the incorporation of Magic.
In vanilla D&D, magic is rare. Magic is what that creepy and feared guy does in the tower out side of town. With Eberron, magic has been incorporated into the culture. It's an extrapolation of "if magic was possible", what could they do with it. It gets the stories out that annoying feudal dark ages mind set. The city of Sharn is the most extreme example of that. A whole city, made possible by magic. That's just fun.
is there any discussion if the powers-that-be want to shatter the floating city, stop the trains, extinguish the sun rod, just to make magic rare again?
Seems like people are already getting pretty uptight about something that hasn't even had a single preview posted. I know that 90% of the Paizo boards think WotC is the D&D-wrecking antichrist, but it is at least minutely possible that they're not going to destroy Eberron. Even if people hate what they do (once we actually find that out), it's not like anyone will come to your house and force you to include Dragonborn, or to advance the timeline, or anything else that you, as the DM, have complete control over.
The Points of Light comment was pretty vague, anyway. It's possible that they'll even redefine what they mean by the PoL concept for Eberron. Besides- in a world like Eberron, player characters are the Points of Light.
Seems like people are already getting pretty uptight about something that hasn't even had a single preview posted. I know that 90% of the Paizo boards think WotC is the D&D-wrecking antichrist, but it is at least minutely possible that they're not going to destroy Eberron. Even if people hate what they do (once we actually find that out), it's not like anyone will come to your house and force you to include Dragonborn, or to advance the timeline, or anything else that you, as the DM, have complete control over.
The Points of Light comment was pretty vague, anyway. It's possible that they'll even redefine what they mean by the PoL concept for Eberron. Besides- in a world like Eberron, player characters are the Points of Light.
If there's anything message boards have taught me, it's that you should never allow a moment's thought or rationality to slow down the spread of FUD.
FUD, the internet's #2 export since 1999! :P
If there's anything message boards have taught me, it's that you should never allow a moment's thought or rationality to slow down the spread of FUD.
FUD, the internet's #2 export since 1999! :P
Ha! I never realized it was an actual business term until I looked it up!
Ha! point taken. Will calm down and wait and see.
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WotC have become enforcers for the Tyranny of Equality. From WotC's standpoint all settings must be playable by all age groups, all races, powers, etc. must be made equal or else. If WotC ran the Louvre picasso, Monet and the other freat artists would be repainted to resemble Family Guy so the majority of people could understand the painting without having to think. Selling to the lowest common denominator works with games like Monopoly, risk and such but not for for games that requires imaginenation.
Huh? So making a product that is accessible to a larger market is a bad thing?
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Why must PoL be thought of as small isolated villages that no one travels between?
Sure, Eberron has the lightning rail. Is it always safe to travel on? It never gets attacked by bandits or monsters? Airships travel through the skies with no risk of harm?
Just because Eberron has very large centers of civilization does not mean that the spaces between those centers is pacified and settled.
I'll paraphrase what James Wyatt said in the Saturday D&D Q&A.
They're not advancing the timeline of Eberron at all.
They're not making any wholescale changes to the setting.
They're not planning on restarting the Last War, although it sounded like they'd like to increase the emphasis of the aftereffects of the Last War, both on the setting, and more importantly on the PCs. From what Keith Baker said in one of his seminars, it sounded like a slight shift more toward Noir and slight shift away from Pulp.
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I think trying to suggest that a world with mass transit systems is isolated and fits with points of light is trying too hard to make Eberron and PoL stick together. I don't think that PoL is incompatible with bits of Eberron, as I pointed out above. But suggesting that the lightning rail, for example, is so dangerous that it is attacked all the time by marauders undermines the very concept. It would be too dangerous to use, would make no money and collapse, seriously affecting House Orien and impacting significantly on the game world as it currently stands. Also, Eberron's USP is that it is a world where magic and commerce are fairly united through the dragonmarked houses, and undermining that by suggesting that it is a fragmented worlds where travel is difficult (and therefore continent-wide commerce is difficult) likewise would have a very big impact on the game world.
I'm not suggesting that the lightning rail is perfectly safe and never attacked by bandits (since it is a good plot hook) but if PoL was applied as it is suggested in the 4e rulebooks and on the WotC site then it would dramatically impact upon the Five Nations and, in my view, push them in a direction which would take away a lot of their current flavour. Likewise, I'm not suggesting that PoL is inappropriate as a concept in Eberron, but I do think it is inappropriate for the heartlands of the Five Nations.
EDIT: And, as I pointed out above too, and as is pointed out just above, PoL as a concept is probably not going to used as an excuse to blow up Eberron like they did with the Realms.