This is the discussion thread for santinj@'s (a.k.a. "SJ@" in DM-mode) 4E experiment (or "4Experiment"). Basically, I'm running some 4E encounters so that I can finally figure out if I like or dislike 4E based on how the thing plays. The original plan was to hand out the pre-generated characters from H1-Keep on the Shadowfell (located here) and run through the first couple of encounters from that module.
But where's the fun in that?
So, I'm making the use of those pre-generated characters an option. If you want to create your own character, please do so. The only stipulation that I'm going to make is that we have one of each of the PC roles listed in the PHB before we have seconds of that role.
For the uninitiated, the characters roles (and their respective classes) are as follows:
Controller
| Wizard (a)
Defender
| Paladin (d)
| Fighter (m)
Leader
| Cleric (d)
| Warlord (m)
Striker
| Warlock (a)
| Ranger (m)
| Rogue (m)
Note: (a), (d), and (m) refer to each class's power source: arcane, divine, and martial respectively, which are described in the sidebar on page 54 of the PHB. Pages 15 and 16 of the PHB describe the character roles in greater detail.
For the purpose of this 4Experiment, please use either Method 1 (the standard array of 16 14 13 12 11 10) or Method 2 (customizing scores/point-buy) to determine you character's ability scores, described on pages 17 and 18 of the PHB. If you use Method 2, I recommend (and prefer) that you use the table of alternate arrays on page 18, but if you just have to do the math, go right ahead. I'll be the last one to deny anyone the pleasure of point-buy arithmetic.
Everything else about your character can come from the following two sources: the PHB, and any recent online 4E Dragon article (I am thinking, specifically, of the articles related to the Artificer, Dragonborn, and Illusions). If you choose to use something out of Dragon, please make that explicit so that I'm not looking in the PHB for something that's not there. If possible, link the article to your character's profile page. You can also play a Gnome using the information in the MM just because I'm partial to Gnomes. No other MM races and no other source material will be considered at this point; it's just too much of a hassle.
I would encourage you to spend more time learning how to run your character and their 4E abilities and to spend less time on things like your character's background. I don't have a specific campaign setting in mind as these are intended to be combat vignettes, so to speak.
However, just because I suggest spending less time on your character's background, doesn't mean that you should spend no time on your character's background. Have an idea of who he or she is, and what his or her personality is like--this is a role-playing game, after all! Also, if this turns out to be a lot of fun, I'd have no problem turning a couple of encounters into an honest-to-goodness campaign, so make sure you're playing a character that you'd want to play beyond a couple of scenarios.
With that possibility in mind, then, I'll lay down one more stipulation. No evil characters, please. Period. Non-negotiable. If (and that's a BIG if) I/we do elect to turn this into something more, I'm not interested in DM'ing a party that contains an evil PC. Unaligned is fine, though, as long as that doesn't turn into "Neutral-Selfish" of "Chaotic-Stupid."
Ask questions if things come up, otherwise start posting your characters, and I'll try to get ready to DM by Wednesday of next week.
JSL wrote:
Well, Dravos Stonebrow, hard-drinking and harder-hitting dwarf fighter (or cleric) will be ready. I just have to decide whether to start as fighter or cleric. It comes down to ranged attacks, really. If someone else is a ranger or rogue, I can safely start him as fighter and not worry about needing anything better than a thrown hammer at range. But if we are short on ranged, I should start him as cleric so I can keep Searing Light around longer.
My intent (as I've belabored already) is to have one of each character role in the party, so I'd say go with Fighter if that's what you'd like.
So far, it looks like the following folks from our RotRL group are confirmed "in:"
JSL Defender (1st choice) or Leader (2nd)
Rags
Fabes
While I think NSpicer has expressed an interest, I couldn't find a "I'm definately in" post from him (though I could've missed it). So I have down as "maybes:"
NSpicer
Dreamer
Arctaris
Is this accurate? Also, Dreamer, if it makes it any easier to decide, take a look at the pre-gens I mentioned above. If one grabs your fancy, use it and forego the work of character generation altogether.
Ideally, I'd like the party to be four, five, or six strong so that I can go through the DMG without any unusual acrobatics. Five, of course, would be the best. I am steadfast in not wanting fewer than four or more than six characters in the party, though.
Male Human - dash of elf Miniature painter/ Heroic
Male Human - dash of elf Miniature painter/ Heroic
No screw that. Artificer. :D
Really want to use those rules.
I'm ready to bust up some a them runty lizard freaks (kobolds) as soon as the rest of ya! Come ta play with the dwarf are ya - well, I got your shift right here, scale face!
Fabes wrote:
No screw that. Artificer. :D
Really want to use those rules.
Just don't be gettin' none a your fairy dust on me. I've got sensitive sinuses.
Fairy Dust?!
*Snort*
A fallacious summation of my arts!
And fewer of the scale-face remarks, my hirsute colleague.
Oh boy! I can see that this is going to be fun already!
So, we've got:
JSL as Dravos Stonebrow, Dwarf Fighter Defender (m)
FabesMinis as Kriv the Crafty, Dragonborn Artificer Leader (a)
That leaves a Controller and a Striker to go.
Dravos Stonebrow wrote: I'm ready to bust up some a them runty lizard freaks (kobolds) as soon as the rest of ya! Come ta play with the dwarf are ya - well, I got your shift right here, scale face!
Keep in mind that I may just surprise you with a not-from-H1 encounter. Seems that the Kobolds are holding out for more money, the little bastards. :)
JSL, could you do me a favor and email me the blank grid with letter-number coordinates that you've used in the RotRL PbP for the maps? I'd greatly appreciate it! You can send it to...
vesh_(at)_concludency_dot_com
SJ@ wrote:
Keep in mind that I may just surprise you with a not-from-H1 encounter. Seems that the Kobolds are holding out for more money, the little bastards. :)
JSL, could you do me a favor and email me the blank grid with letter-number coordinates that you've used in the RotRL PbP for the maps? I'd greatly appreciate it! You can send it to...
vesh_(at)_concludency_dot_com That's fine. Whatever encounters you like. Are you planning to do anything in terms of a starting location? I think most of us probably have access to Fallcrest from the DMG and/or Falcon's Hollow if you wanted to do either of those. I am just thinking in terms of background: where am I and why?
The grid file is in AutoCAD, but I will convert it to PDF and email it to you tomorrow. I will also look into graphic files of the DDM maps.
Well, gee,... let me think ,... (NOT!)
Controller,... DUH! ;)
Though I may go with a bit more of a blaster than controller. SOme of those things that JSL pointed out with 'possible Sli4E' look interesting.
So looking at either Wiz or Warlock, with multi class feats to give me a bit of the other. I'll have to look at the races too. I have a particular personality in mind, and some of the races might not fit as well (to me) as others.
Don't worry, he'll still be a chatter box! (I gotta be me!) but he won't be Sli! ;)
SJ@ wrote: While I think NSpicer has expressed an interest, I couldn't find a "I'm definately in" post from him (though I could've missed it). Yes, you missed it. I'm definitely in. I want the 4Experience if for no other reason to continue my own 4education. ;-)
And, from a character creation standpoint, I'd like to go with the Striker role...a rogue to be exact...but not the Halfling Rogue from the pregens. Unfortunately, I'll be at a complete loss with constructing a 4e character on my own. I have none of the 4e books. Could you cook up a playable rogue for me? Say an elven one? And multiclass feat to pick up something from the Defender (fighter) role as well? Or, if Rags doesn't go with a Controller (wizard), then maybe multiclass me into that?
--Neil
NSpicer wrote: SJ@ wrote: While I think NSpicer has expressed an interest, I couldn't find a "I'm definately in" post from him (though I could've missed it). Yes, you missed it. I'm definitely in. I want the 4Experience if for no other reason to continue my own 4education. ;-)
And, from a character creation standpoint, I'd like to go with the Striker role...a rogue to be exact...but not the Halfling Rogue from the pregens. Unfortunately, I'll be at a complete loss with constructing a 4e character on my own. I have none of the 4e books. Could you cook up a playable rogue for me? Say an elven one? And multiclass feat to pick up something from the Defender (fighter) role as well? Or, if Rags doesn't go with a Controller (wizard), then maybe multiclass me into that?
--Neil The initiate multi-class feat for fighter gives you only a +1 to hit and mark the target once per encounter. This can be useful, but it's not necessarily flavorful.
I played the half-elf rogue at DD gameday and he was very effective. Also, as a half-elf, he does not necessarily need to multi-class as he can take one at-will from another class as an encounter power.
Most of the fighter powers are Strength based, and he is a charismatic rogue by default. I could switch that up and make him more of a tough guy, giving him higher strength and taking Sure Strike (+2 to hit) or Reaping Strike (auto damage on miss) from the Fighter or go with a Dex based Ranger archery power.
I'll stick with Wiz, and maybe multi into Warlock. To leave the 'striker' role open.
See, THIS is one of the problems I have with the new rules, being shoehorned into 'roles', instead of allowing the player to decide what 'role' he fills! (/mini-rant, thank you!) ;)
I'll need time to REALLY read the various classes and powers to see what interesting combos there are.
Yeah, I'm willing to give this a try. I'm thinking Eladrin Ranger (partly to bug the DM; also because I like elves and archery). I don't have anything else figured out, but that should give me something to do during the last half of my crisis line shift.
If you wish to play the old fashioned 'blaster wizard' you are much better off playing a warlock, old sir.
*goes back to examining some odd bits of bark*
JSL wrote: I played the half-elf rogue at DD gameday and he was very effective. Also, as a half-elf, he does not necessarily need to multi-class as he can take one at-will from another class as an encounter power. That sounds ideal. I just have no idea how to put together such a character without the books. If you can tweak him for me and send me the write-up, I'll be happy to use that for our 4excursion. (Okay, enough with the 4e puns!)...
JSL wrote: Most of the fighter powers are Strength based, and he is a charismatic rogue by default. I could switch that up and make him more of a tough guy, giving him higher strength and taking Sure Strike (+2 to hit) or Reaping Strike (auto damage on miss) from the Fighter or go with a Dex based Ranger archery power. I've always loved the jack-of-all-trades role. If there's a way to give him decent (but not dominant) Strength and the same for his Charisma, I'd love to mix and match the powers/abilities tied to those ability scores...i.e., both secondary and tertiary to Dexterity as that's the baseline for a Rogue anyway.
--Neil
JSL wrote:
That's fine. Whatever encounters you like. Are you planning to do anything in terms of a starting location? I think most of us probably have access to Fallcrest from the DMG and/or Falcon's Hollow if you wanted to do either of those. I am just thinking in terms of background: where am I and why?
The grid file is in AutoCAD, but I will convert it to PDF and email it to you tomorrow. I will also look into graphic files of the DDM maps.
On the second point (the grid), thanks in advance for sending that. I really appreciate it.
On the first point (starting location), sort of. I want to give you enough of a hook to get you started, but I also want to preserve some sense of surprise. I remember a story that someone wrote about playing an AD&D one-off with Gygax at a con somewhere. Gygax basically set everyone up in front of three cave entrances going into the side of a mountain and said "go."
I'll try to give you a little more than that, but if I give you too much, the gig is up. Let me think about it a little, and I'll come up with something.
Here's what we've got so far:
JSL as Dravos Stonebrow, Dwarf Fighter Defender (m)
FabesMinis as Kriv the Crafty, Dragonborn Artificer Leader (a)
Ragadolf as ________________, ___________ Wizard Controller (a)
NSpicer as ________________, Half-Elf Rogue Striker (m)
Dreamer as _______________, Eladrin Ranger Striker (m)
I know that folks are considering multiclass feats and such, but I'm just summarizing in broadstrokes with the list above.
I want to thank JSL for helping NSpicer generate a character. I would've delegated that task anyway. And, NSpicer, don't sweat not having the books. I've got them, and if you knew how seat-of-the-pants this felt to me you might think twice about signing on!
One note to Rags, roles, and related rant. Please note that I'm the one forcing folks into filling the four roles, not the rules per se. If you wanted a party of four defenders, you could have one. Good luck to you, but you could have one. No, the rules are biased towards party balance, and I'm just making that a requirement for the first four characters. This is a 4experiment, after all! I want to see if having all four roles really creates more fun.
Enough for now. Get those characters posted.
No worries Sant, just being me! ;)
I should have something posted by this weekend. IF I stick with straight Wiz, the choices seem pretty cut and dried.
I mainly just need to decide if I'm going to go with my smart-aleck 'Harry Dresden/Magical detective/I'm good at blasting' persona, or the snobbish/elite/'it's my world you all are just visiting'/'magic is an art' persona.
(I have a vision of a snobbish/otherworldly Eladrin Wiz who refuses to walk anywhere, instead he rides on his Tenser's FLoating Disk!)
Male Human - dash of elf Miniature painter/ Heroic
If you go with Floating Disk, I'll change my ritual to something else. More variety. Although Eladrin-boy could teleport around... even more so if he were a feypact warlock.
Female Elf Ranger 1
If you have anything for saves, it is likely a racial bonus and would be on the Elf page.
For your weapon attacks, add the proficiency bonus from the weapon table to your ability bonus (strength for melee, dexterity for ranged). So your longsword attack should be +5 vs. AC (+3 prof, +2 str) and your longbow should be +6 vs. AC (+2 prof, +4 dex). You also add your ability bonus to damage (unless it says otherwise, like with the sure shot power, which gives you an extra attack bonus at the cost of your ability bonus to damage).
Initiative is equal to your dex bonus, so +4.
Regarding feats: Quickdraw, Alertness, and Improved Initiative are all good ones to consider as they help you get off the first shot - useful when you are an archer. A nice thing here is that you don't *need* feats just to be effective, so if you want, you can also get things like Skill Focus and Skill Training if there were skills you wish you were better at.
Regarding items and storage: they used to list carrying capacities for bags and packs, but I think they decided that was silly. I figure if you want it in a fight, best to put it in your belt pouch. Obviously you have two hands, so that limits what you are carrying. Your capacity is 10x your strength.
FabesMinis wrote: If you go with Floating Disk, I'll change my ritual to something else. More variety. Although Eladrin-boy could teleport around... even more so if he were a feypact warlock.
If Rags is inclined to play a Warlock, that's fine, but than we're down a controller. Not the end of the world, but not what I had in mind for our little experiment, either.
Dreamer: I like Aelwyn. This should be fun.
JSL as Dravos Stonebrow, Male Dwarf Fighter Defender (m)
FabesMinis as Kriv the Crafty, Male Dragonborn Artificer Leader (a)
Ragadolf as ________________, ___________ Wizard Controller (a)
NSpicer as ________________, Half-Elf Rogue Striker (m)
Dreamer as Aelwyn, Female Eladrin Ranger Striker (m)
Ragadolf wrote: I mainly just need to decide if I'm going to go with my smart-aleck 'Harry Dresden/Magical detective/I'm good at blasting' persona, or the snobbish/elite/'it's my world you all are just visiting'/'magic is an art' persona.
(I have a vision of a snobbish/otherworldly Eladrin Wiz who refuses to walk anywhere, instead he rides on his Tenser's FLoating Disk!)
I'd kind of like to see that. Can the snobbish Eladrin Wiz fortify the troops and save the day? Would he want to? And this might be a chance for our characters to be less adversarial... Just a thought.
Lack of a controller means that we will have some trouble clearing minion hoards - though a Dragonborn can help alot in that regard, too. Also, it means that we won't be laying down effects and conditions very often.
On the other hand, three strikers is a heck of alot of firepower, if we can keep them alive. I think it is doable, but without a pure cleric, people will have to be a little cautious.
I'll concede on having a third striker, if that's the way Rags wants to go. I'd rather he play a character he really wants to play over the role I'd prefer.
I'm really vacillating on the encounters I want to run. I've narrowed it down to two possibilities, and I may open it up to input from you all. I need to take a closer look at the beginning of H1.
Stay tuned!
JSL wrote: Lack of a controller means that we will have some trouble clearing minion hoards... I've played wizards quite a lot before. I'd be willing to trade out and let Dreamer have the full-fledged roguish role with her elven archer, if it will help the party...especially since she's got room to buy up her Thievery skills to round it out. So you can scale me back to a Half-Elf Wizard, as long as JSL can help put together the character for me. And maybe the Half-Elf's ability to pick up an at-will power from another class as an encounter power could let me support someone else. In the interests of some healing power, how about an at-will healing ability from the cleric class?
Just call me a team player, ;-)
--Neil
Wow, you'd do that for ME?
;)
No worries, I'm good, whether I play a Wiz or the other, I'm guessing it looks like they've made half or more of the Wiz spells at least small area effects, and teh Warlock is primarily a 'striker' IE=One target attacks?
I'll stick with Wiz. I want to see how it plays. Thank you for your accommodating kindness though!
NSpicer wrote: So you can scale me back to a Half-Elf Wizard, as long as JSL can help put together the character for me. And maybe the Half-Elf's ability to pick up an at-will power from another class as an encounter power could let me support someone else. In the interests of some healing power, how about an at-will healing ability from the cleric class?
Just call me a team player, ;-)
--Neil
I'll look into some options tonight, giving Rags a last chance to finalize his direction.
N/M. The half-elf rogue was looking more fun anyway.
Rags: You are right, I could not find one warlock power that affected multiple targets.
Thx, Occasionally I am correct.
(Not often enough to make me happy, but hey,...)
Quick question/clarification about Wiz (and Warlocks) and their 'chosen Implement',...
When you are a Wiz, you choose one implement that you SPECIALIZE in, which gives you an encounter power based on that implement, (Staff gives you +1 AC, Wand gives +1 to hit, Orb= Etc.)
The question is, choosing an implement does not prevent you from using another implement does it?
Ex= Rags has 'Staff Mastery', but then finds a +3 Wand of Fire, he can still USE the wand, and get +3 to hit with it. He just doesn't get the '+1 to Hit' Encounter power because he didn't specialize in it. Right?
Male Human - dash of elf Miniature painter/ Heroic
You can use any of your implements from your class, you just get the special ability when you use that particular type of implement.
I'm not sure we need to worry cleric-wise. Kriv can do quite a bit of healing and temp hitpointing.
He's done, bar seeing what rituals Rags takes and taking a different one. I already have Make Whole (which can't be changed) and one of my choice.
Getting closer!
JSL as Dravos Stonebrow, Male Dwarf Fighter Defender (m)
FabesMinis as Kriv the Crafty, Male Dragonborn Artificer Leader (a)
Ragadolf as ________________, ___________ Wizard Controller (a)
NSpicer as ________________, Half-Elf Rogue Striker (m)
Dreamer as Aelwyn, Female Eladrin Ranger Striker (m)
A little premature, but I've started the >>game thread<< (though I probably won't start the game properly until early-to-mid-week next week).
I couldn't resist adding some "flavor" posts to get you in the D&D mood. Can you guess what I am currently (re)reading? This may turn out to be just a couple of 4Excursions, but that doesn't mean it ought not be complex, compelling, or fun to play (or write).
Oh, and though you'll probably figure it out by the time you've read my posts in the game thread, could you please...
Male Human - dash of elf Miniature painter/ Heroic
Nice, just saw the thread. I guessed what the source adventure was and will desist from looking!
Oh and for everyone, Kriv is albino, but has enough pigmentation in his eyes to render them blue rather than pink/red.
Female Elf Ranger 1
SJ@ wrote: ~ Aeshylus, Agamemnon Aeshylus? Don't you think this may be a little too high-brow for this group? :)
BTW, Aelwyn is a regular Elf rather than an Eladrin -- a little more down-to-earth and woodsy than magical. Rather than aloof, she's more likely to be amused by the mortal experience.
*Harrumph*
"Well, speak for yourself. I happen to like an evening at the theatre."
Goes back to taking apart an old clock...
Aelwyn wrote: SJ@ wrote: ~ Aeshylus, Agamemnon Aeshylus? Don't you think this may be a little too high-brow for this group? :)
BTW, Aelwyn is a regular Elf rather than an Eladrin -- a little more down-to-earth and woodsy than magical. Rather than aloof, she's more likely to be amused by the mortal experience. It was either Aeshylus or Steven Wright: "I was walking down the street wearing glasses when the prescription ran out," "I have an existential map. It has 'You are here' written all over it," or "My theory of evolution is that Darwin was adopted."
From Wikipedia: "Many of Aeschylus' works were influenced by the Persian invasion of Greece, which took place during his lifetime . . . The war was so important to Greeks and to Aeschylus himself that, upon his death around 456 BC, his epitaph included a reference to his participation in the Greek victory at Marathon but not to his success as a playwright."
Seemed appropriate for the tone of what's about to happen...
"A curse shall light upon the limbs of men; Domestic fury and fierce civil strife Shall cumber all the parts of Italy; Blood and destruction shall be so in use, And dreadful objects so familiar, That mothers shall but smile when they behold Their infants quarter'd with the hands of war; All pity chok'd with custom of fell deeds: And Caesar's spirit, ranging for revenge, With Ate by his side come hot from hell, Shall in these confines with a monarch's voice Cry 'Havoc!' and let slip the dogs of war; That this foul deed shall smell above the earth With carrion men, groaning for burial."
Sorry about the Eladrin/Elf mix up. I has seen the post, but had gotten a little trigger happy with the ol' cut and paste...
JSL as Dravos Stonebrow, Male Dwarf Fighter Defender (m)
FabesMinis as Kriv the Crafty, Male Dragonborn Artificer Leader (a)
Ragadolf as ________________, ___________ Wizard Controller (a)
NSpicer as ________________, Half-Elf Rogue Striker (m)
Dreamer as Aelwyn, Female Elf Ranger Striker (m)
Female Human commoner 1
I've begun preparing a new profile for my 4e Rogue. Decided to play a female character. Her nickname of "Ceelie" is both a nod to her given name of Celia as well as her half-elven heritage (i.e., the Seelie Court). ;-)
For the moment, I've copied and pasted Aelwyn's game information, but it's really only placeholders until JSL tells me what Ceelie will have in terms of powers, abilities, skills, etc.
--Neil
Male Human - dash of elf Miniature painter/ Heroic
Love it.
"Let us sit down on the ground and tell sad stories of the deaths of kings"
Celia 'Ceelie' Merveaux wrote: I've begun preparing a new profile for my 4e Rogue. Decided to play a female character. Her nickname of "Ceelie" is both a nod to her given name of Celia as well as her half-elven heritage (i.e., the Seelie Court). ;-)
For the moment, I've copied and pasted Aelwyn's game information, but it's really only placeholders until JSL tells me what Ceelie will have in terms of powers, abilities, skills, etc.
--Neil
As a half-elf, you have +2 Con and +2 Cha. So for abilities, I was thinking Str 14, Con 12*, Dex 16, Int 11, Wis 12, Cha 15*.
You will have 24 hp and 7 healing surges for 6 hp each.
Your trained skills are Stealth and Theivery, plus choose 4 from: Acrobatics (dex), Athletics (str), Bluff (cha), Dungeoneering (wis), Insight (wis), Intimidate (cha), Perception (wis), and Streetwise (cha). Your racial bonuses are +2 on Diplomacy and Insight. Being trained in a skill gives you a +5 bonus with it. Otherwise, you bonus is 1/2 your level plus your ability modifier. Modifiers are the same as in 3e.
Your base defenses are AC: 15 (leather); Fort: 12; Ref: 15; Will: 12.
You are proficient with cloth and leather armor, dagger, short sword, hand crossbow, shuriken, and sling. I was thinking short sword as primary and daggers as secondary melee and primary ranged. Rogues get a +1 to hit with daggers, which have a +3 proficiency bonus, so you would be at +7 with a thrown dagger at 1st level. As a rogue, most of your damage comes from sneak attack (+2d6) so the dagger's 1d4 damage is not as important as just hitting when you have combat advantage. Your other good option is to use a feat and get proficient with the rapier (+3 prof. bonus, 1d8 damage).
Let me know if you have any thoughts. I'll post some power options later tonight.
JSL wrote: As a half-elf, you have +2 Con and +2 Cha. So for abilities, I was thinking Str 14, Con 12*, Dex 16, Int 11, Wis 12, Cha 15*. That looks good to me. Dex, Cha, Str in order of primary abilities. Con and Wis for a slight above average endurance and perception. And I'm okay with leaving Int as the dump stat, so to speak.
JSL wrote: Your trained skills are Stealth and Theivery, plus choose 4 from: Acrobatics (dex), Athletics (str), Bluff (cha), Dungeoneering (wis), Insight (wis), Intimidate (cha), Perception (wis), and Streetwise (cha). Your racial bonuses are +2 on Diplomacy and Insight. I'll rely on the racial bonus for Diplomacy and Insight. And I've already got Thievery and Stealth. So, I'll choose Athletics, Bluff, Perception, and Streetwise for my other four trained skills.
JSL wrote: Being trained in a skill gives you a +5 bonus with it. Otherwise, you bonus is 1/2 your level plus your ability modifier. Modifiers are the same as in 3e. I assume we round down on the "1/2 your level" thing? So any skill she isn't trained in would just be her ability modifier?
JSL wrote: You are proficient with cloth and leather armor, dagger, short sword, hand crossbow, shuriken, and sling. I was thinking short sword as primary and daggers as secondary melee and primary ranged. Rogues get a +1 to hit with daggers, which have a +3 proficiency bonus, so you would be at +7 with a thrown dagger at 1st level. As a rogue, most of your damage comes from sneak attack (+2d6) so the dagger's 1d4 damage is not as important as just hitting when you have combat advantage. Your other good option is to use a feat and get proficient with the rapier (+3 prof. bonus, 1d8 damage). Let me know my feat options. If it makes sense to spend one on rapier proficiency at 1st level, I'm okay with that. But if there's something else that helps round out her abilities and what-not, then I'm okay sticking with shortsword for now.
JSL wrote: Let me know if you have any thoughts. I'll post some power options later tonight. Looking forward to them. I envision Ceelie as a melee rogue, not a ranged one. She would certainly use ranged attacks as part of her sneak attacks, of course. But as you said, she'd likely use short-range knives and daggers for that kind of thing.
Ever have one of those senior moments? JSL, what was the website that you posted web images on? You know for the maps? Grrrr. I hate it when my brain won't work!
I'll post a map of the Vale as soon as I remember how. *Embarrassed*
Until then, some notes:
The Elsir Vale has a diverse enough topography/geography that it will accommodate the backgrounds of all of your characters to one degree or another. Here are some appropriate choices:
The action will start in the town of Brindol which lies in the center of the Vale in the agricultural heartland. I always find it difficult to start a character in the place that will serve as "home base," but it is the largest community in the vale proper and second largest in the region, so feel free to do so.
Dwarves are likely to come from one of two places in the Vale. Redrock, a grungy copper mining town about a day's ride north/northeast of Brindol. Or the Hammerfist Holds, twice as far to the southwest. If we get that far, Redrock will have an indirect role to play in the first set of stories.
There are lots of options for Elves. The Marth Forest and nearby Marthon to the east of Brindol or The Witchwood to the west are the most likely places. The Westdeep, which is isolated and contains "Xenophobic" wild elves, and the Blackfens, which is a marshland patrolled by elves on giant owls and lanterns with green continual flames spells (ah, 3E), are also options.
I'm not sure what to say about Dragonborn and/or Tieflings other than to say that it is unlikely that either race would be native to the Vale. I might change things up and have Dragonborn repopulating the area that once was theirs--Perhaps Rhest, a ruin to the north of the Vale, was a Dragonborn city rather than a Human one. Otherwise, I would recommend that either race come from Dennovar, a city (the largest in the region) on the eastern edge of the Vale. Dennovar serves as the gateway to larger kingdoms to the east.
Half-elves, Halflings, and Humans can pick a town. Also there are Halflings that are known a bargefolk that ply the waters of the Elsir river.
I hope that's enough to give you at least a place name to go with. I'll post a hook in the game thread to get you started, but I can tell you now that it'll be very similar in nature to the start of the Temple of Elemental Evil: a war happened in the Vale ten years earlier, a band of heroes saved the day, relative peace came to the land until a few months ago when goblinoid incursions have been on the increase. Brindol, once the site of the worst fighting a decade ago, is calling brave swordarms and adventurers to hunt the goblinoids in the mountains to the north. You travel to Brindol to heed the call and are seated around a table at an tavern.
Cliche? You bet! And, I'm loving every bit of it!!!
Here is what I have for Celia so far:
Celia Half-elf Rogue Level 1
=========================================
Initiative +3
Perception +6, Insight +3
Low-Light Vision
Languages: Common, Elven, (One Other)
Alignment: (LG, G, U)
=========================================
HP 24 Bloodied 12
Healing Surge: 6 Surges/Day: 7
AC 15 Fort 12 Ref 15 Will 12
Saves:
Action Points: 1
=========================================
Speed: 6 squares
Basic Melee Attack: Short Sword +5 vs. AC 1d6+2
Basic Melee Attack: Dagger +6 vs. AC 1d4+2
Basic Ranged Attack: Dagger +7 vs. AC 1d4+3 Range 5/10
Basic Ranged Attack: Sling +5 vs. AC 1d6+3 Range 10/20
=========================================
Skills: Athletics +7, Bluff +7, Diplomacy +4*, Insight +3*, Perception +6, Stealth +8, Streetwise +7, Thievery +8
* Includes racial bonus
Feats: TBD
Abilities: Str 14, Con 12*, Dex 16, Int 11, Wis 12, Cha 15*
* Includes racial bonus
=========================================
Racial Abilities
=========================================
Class Features
=========================================
At-Will Powers
=========================================
Daily Powers
=========================================
Possessions:
Adventurer's Kit (33 lbs)
Daggers (10; belt; 10 lbs)
Leather Armor (worn; 15 lbs)
Short Sword (belt; 2 lb)
Sling (belt; 1 lb)
Thieves Tools (pouch; 1 lb)
Wealth: 19 gp
Encumbrance (approx.): 62 lbs. Capacity: 140 lbs.
=========================================
Racial stuff:
Need to select another language.
Need to select extra encounter power. See below.
Class stuff:
Need to select brute or artful dodger.
Weapons:
I listed the short sword as a melee weapon for now. I added a sling for longer range attacks than the daggers.
Powers:
I have left the descriptions in the generic form, so you can fill in the specifics depending on other choices.
At-will:
I selected Piercing Strike because it targets Ref instead of AC. Any ability that uses a weapon to target a defense other than AC has an advantage because you still get the weapon's proficiency bonus and most creatures have slightly lower Fort/Ref/Will than their AC. So the attack is more likely to land. It is always good to look for weapon attacks vs. other defenses and be able to attack a variety of defenses.
I went with Sly Flourish for the increased damage and because it can be used with ranged weapons as well. The rogue is the only current class that has the versatility to be good with both melee and ranged weapons, so it seemed like a good idea to get an at-will power for ranged attacks.
Encounter:
The four rogue encounter powers are Dazing Strike (1W+Dex, target dazed), King's Castle (2W+Dex, trade places w/ adjacent ally), Positioning Strike (1W+Dex+ slide target 1; artful dodger slides target Cha modifier squares), and Torturous Strike (2W+Dex; brutal scoundrel adds Str modifier to damage).
Only King's works with ranged weapons. Personally, I think Positioning Strike is a little gimmicky; however, it would allow you to slide someone two squares and possibly "unstick" yourself if you are in trouble. Tort. Strike is really your only option for getting your strength into the picture at this point. Dazing strike is good because dazed creatures give combat advantage (and hence, sneak attack). This is a good way to get sneak attack when you don't have a flanking buddy. Dazed also limits the creature to one action and it can't make opportunity attacks or take immediate actions. This is an excellent shut-down maneuver when you are off by yourself as it gives you all kinds of options for following up with a hard shot and making an escape.
For powers from other classes, I looked for things that used either Str or Cha and were compatible with the striker role.
Cleric: Righteous brand (Str vs. AC; ally gets bonus to attack target) is the only realistic option. Priest's shield is also a strength vs. AC and grants an ally +1 to AC - not very exciting, in my book.
Fighter: Cleave (Str mod damage to 2nd target), Reaping Strike (Str mod damage on miss), and Sure Strike (+2 to hit, no Str mod to damage) are all available (Tide of Iron requires a shield). Of those, I think Reap fits best and it is definitely useful against heavily wounded high-AC opponents (or when the dice just hate you).
Paladin: Bolstering Strike is Cha vs. AC and gives you temporary hp equal to your Wis modifier - probably not worth it. Enfeebling Strike and Holy Strike require the target to be marked, which you can't do unless you multi-class to fighter or paladin (though if you did, it might be worth looking at them). Valiant strike is Str vs. AC with a +1 bonus for every enemy adjacent to you. I think it is the best choice here, but not the best overall.
Ranger: Careful attack is identical to the fighter's Sure Strike, but can be used with a ranged weapon. Hit and Run is a good option, it is Str vs. AC and allows you to move away from the target without provoking an OA. You cannot attack in the middle of movement, however, so it really is "hit-run" not "run-hit-run". Twin Strike might be a fun option here if you wield Sh. Sword and Dagger or dual dagger. It is the only way you could make two attacks, but you would not get your str mod to dmg.
Warlock: Eldritch blast (Cha vs. Ref for 1d10+Cha) is nothing to sneeze at. Eyebite (Cha vs. Will) has the advantage of targeting a different defense than most of your other powers and it turns you invisible to the target until the start of your next turn. So it is great in combo with another attack (when you spend an action point) or to get away and hide.
Warlord: Commander's Strike allows an ally to make a basic attack instead of you. I don't think this is a good choice because chances are you have more damage potential than the rest of us. Furious Smash is Str vs. Fort and only does Str mod damage, but allows an ally to add your Cha mod to damage on his next attack. Again, you could probably do more damage on your own and don't need this gimmickry. Viper's strike causes the enemy to provoke an OA from an ally if it shifts. Dravos can already OA it if he has marked it. This power has some use, but is not better than your other choices. Wolf Pack Tactics **I think this would make a good choice** It is a rather generic Str. vs. AC attack, but before the attack one ally adjacent to you or the target can shift one square. This gives alot of flexibility for setting up flanks when people are just a little bit out of position.
Wizard: All wizard powers use Intelligence, which means you will never hit the broadside of a barn with them.
Daily Powers:
Blinding Barrage: Close blast 3 with ranged weapon for 2W+Dex mod damage. Put 9 daggers in 9 guys - what's not to like?
Easy Target: Melee or Ranged; 2W+Dex mod damage and target is slowed and grants combat advantage to you (save ends both). I had this ability at DD Gameday and used it on the White Dragon. The dragon saved the next round, so I never got mileage out of the ongoing effect. Also, my fellow players were really good about setting flanks, so I honestly didn't need it. But this could clearly be a winner if you are isolated. YMMV.
Trick Strike: Melee or Ranged: 3W+Dex and slide the target 1 square. For the rest of the encounter, every time you hit the target, you can slide it 1 square. This sounds like lots of fun, but keep in mind that, with me being the only other melee type, if you start sliding people around, you will probably be sliding them out of flank more often than into it. But this could be lots of fun if you got it off early with a ranged attack and used the slide to pull the enemy closer each round.
Feats:
Thanks to dual heritage, you have lots of good options.
Action Surge (human) you gain +3 to attack rolls you make on the action where you spend an action point. If you spend your AP, you want to hit, right?
Backstabber: d8 for sneak attack instead of d6.
Blade Opportunist: +2 to OAs w/ blade
Defensive Mobility: +2 to AC vs. OAs (probably not necessary if you go artful dodger)
Human Perseverance: +1 to saves
Improved Init: +4 to init - goes great with First Strike
Nimble Blade: Add'l +1 to attacks w/ light blade when you have combat advantage.
Press the advantage: if you crit w/ combat advantage, you keep combat advantage on your next turn.
Two-weapon fighting: an odd way to go, but gives you +1 damage with your main weapon
Weapon focus: +1 damage with weapon group (sh. sword and daggers are both light blades)
Weapon Proficiency: if you want a rapier
Also, there are the skillsy feats like Skill Training for that skill you wish you had and Skill focus for the skill you wish you were better in. Escape Artist and Light Step also give some skill bonuses.
A nice thing about 4e is that there are not as many "gotta have it feats", so by extension, there are not as many "sucks to be you" feats. In other words, they are well balanced and all pretty useful.
Human Wiz 12 (Evocation)
Here is the rough draft for Justin Case, Wiz for hire! (AKA-'The Human Torch') ;P
SInce I can't really decide between teh human or Eladrin caster, I've decided to make both! I hope to have the other one built by the weekend, but its 3am here, so maybe not.
Troubles,
-The 1st lvel sound blast pushes people back as many squares as your Wis bonus, but he has no Wis bonus! However, I gave him a high Dex out of habit from 3E, and he can use his Int bonus for AC instead, maybe I can/should switch Dex and Wis?!?
-Considering switching to Tiefling to and taking teh 'burning blood' feat to get +1 to both dmg AND att with fire spells!
Other than that, I THINK he's almost right, can you all take a look and list my mistakes please? Or suggestions to improve?
Thx!
I decided that Justin will be a heavy-hitter, fire thrower, and the Eladin will be an effete, disdaining both getting his hands dirty, and disdaining fire spells as for use by the mundanes who cannot grasp the finer points of magic! :)
JSL wrote: Need to select another language. I'll look to Santinj to recommend another language besides Common and Elven. Obviously, I could go with Dwarven in order to converse with my melee companion. Or, if there's a particular humanoid we'll face a lot, I could go with that, too.
JSL wrote: Need to select extra encounter power. I'm leaning towards Eyebite. Rather than explain the ability as a Warlock tie-in, I'd say it has something to do with Ceelie's elvish/fey background.
JSL wrote: Need to select brute or artful dodger. None of the power/feat selections I'm choosing will likely be impacted by this choice at 1st level. What do you recommend?
JSL wrote: I listed the short sword as a melee weapon for now. I added a sling for longer range attacks than the daggers. I'm okay with shortsword and dagger. Wouldn't crossbow (or handcrossbow?) be more favorable than sling? I'm just imagining something different than a half-elven slinger, I guess. Is shortbow no longer available to Rogues?
Also, would it be possible to use a whip? Does 4e have that weapon defined yet? How do the mechancis for it work? Any advantages or disadvantages to spending a Weapon Proficiency feat on it? I'm envisioning it more for the cool Indiana Jones factor...and maybe sneak attacks with it, if possible...but it doesn't appear whips are in the approved list of weapon groups for sneak attacks...which seems kinda odd. Any thoughts?
JSL wrote: Powers:...At-will... I remember Sly Flourish from D&D Game Day. I thought it was interesting and I'm cool with what you've selected. If Ceelie can wield a whip, I think the Sly Flourish would make even more sense. Also, I may want to go back and revise her skill list to change out Athletics for Intimidate or something. That would go hand-in-hand with a whip as well.
JSL wrote: Powers...Encounter: I'm torn between the following (in order of preference):
Eyebite
Dazing Strike
Wolf Pack Tactics
Hit and Run
Twin Stirke (shortsword and whip?)
JSL wrote: Powers...Daily: I like the thought of a Close blast 3 ability with Blinding Barrage. Useful for clearing minions? Otherwise, the Trick Strike sounds deadly at 3W+Dex. The slide is just extra, but could come in handy, as you say. So give me a recommendation between those two based on what everyone else has available to them from a party tactics perspective. I want to fill a niche basically that no one else has covered, or that it would be nice to have a backup.
JSL wrote: Feats: Thanks to dual heritage, you have lots of good options. I have no idea which one would be best. I noticed that Action Surge is a Human heritage feat. What are the available Elven heritage feats?
Obviously, if it takes Weapon Proficiency to use a whip, I wouldn't mind going that route. But if such a weapon isn't defined or doesn't work well with the other Rogue abilities, I'll pass on using my feat for that. How many do I get by the way? Just one, I take it? Action Surge sounds like it will make my action points more effective. But Backstabber sounds more deadly since it will apply on all sneak attacks...and using sneak attacks would be my goal, whether from range or melee. Improved Initiative sounds like the only other one I'd be interested in at this time (to ensure I get sneak attacks more often). Recommendations between those?
--Neil
You still looking to fill out a spot? I'll do one of the pregens to fill it up. possibly the wizard.
Artful Dodger vs. Brute Scoundrel:
This depends on how much you want to favor Str vs. Cha with your ability increases. Over levels 1-30, you get 6 +1 increases to any two abilities and 2 +1 increases to all your abilities. So you can raise any two abilities by up to 8 over their starting values, or spread the wealth between three or more abilities.
If you split your secondary ability advancement between Str and Cha, it will be easier to get to the next highest even number with Cha than Str. So you could end up at Str 18, Cha 21 or Str 19, Cha 20 (no difference), or Str 18, Cha 20 and Int 14 (may as well make 'em all even).
Argument for Dodger:
The half-elf race and your skill selections lean more towards Charisma than Strength.
If you favor Eyebite, then you should go for Cha over Str; without an implement you will have trouble landing it at higher levels if you don't pump Cha. So, if you take Eyebite, it would be better to go the Dodger route, pump Cha, and leave Str where it is.
Argument for Brute:
Your other bonus power favorites (below) all favor Strength and thus, the Brute Scoundrel approach. Your skills will suffer a bit, but if you pump Cha slightly, you could get to Cha 18, Str 21 or Cha 18, Str 20, Int 14.
The extra damage from Brute Scoundrel is nice. This typically allows you to add your Str mod to your Dex mod, but also allows you to add double your Str mod (with a Str based attack) or your Str mod plus your Dex and Cha mods (with sly flourish). Throw in Backstabber (d8 instead of d6 on sneak attack), and you'll be tearing it up. Also, you can partially fortify yourself against OAs with Defensive Mobility.
So, I guess it boils down to Eyebite, Skills, and OA avoidance on one side vs. tons of damage and options like Dazing Strike or Two-weapon fighting on the other.
Weapons:
The hand-crossbow is statistically similar to the sling, but costs 25 gp. You would have to give up some daggers or the thieves tools.
Regarding the whip, here is my first take on it.
Superior weapon (so you need to spend a feat to be proficient)
One handed
Whip Prof. +2; Damage 1d4; Reach 3; Price 5 gp; Weight 1 lb; Group whip; Properties: entangle.
Instead of doing sneak attack damage with the whip, I'd submit the following as a "basic attack" option. Attack: Dex vs. Ref (one target within reach) Hit: 1d4 + Dex mod damage and the target is restrained until it escapes. A restrained target grants combat advantage, takes a -2 to attacks, and cannot move. This is a pretty powerful condition and, along with Reach 3, makes up for the whip's paltry damage and +2 prof. bonus.
I could see adding some whip specific feats.
I will add more in awhile - lunch time
Back to the whip:
Most rogue powers stipluate that you must be wielding a "light blade, hand crossbow, or sling". Unless SJ@ rules otherwise, that would preclude using a whip with the powers. You could still dual wield and use it for the entangle, if he accepts that, and have the short sword at hand for your other powers.
Encounter Powers:
Dazing Strike is a rogue power, so you can take that and one of the others (which you get through your half-elf racial feature).
Per the above discussion on ability scores, Eyebite is best if you want to pump Charisma. Wolf-pack might go well with the brute approach as it will give you one more way to set up a sneak attack. Twin Strike would be a more flavorful choice than the others, which are a little power-gamish. Hit-and-Run is not the only way for a rogue to hit-and-run, so it is the least option in my book.
Daily Powers:
Both Blinding Barrage and Trick Strike are excellent abilities.
BB has the advantage of blinding anyone you hit, and with a blast 3, you will likely hit at least once. So there is good opportunity for follow-up sneak attacks and dwarves like punching blind guys in the face. It also does half-damage on a miss. You can't hurt a minion with a miss, but it might be useful against high-AC soldiers.
TS has obvious utility against an obvious boss monster or solo, but I think is weakened slightly against hoardes of enemies.
You might want to hold off and see where Rags ends up for area effects. But BB is a little better, I think.
Feats:
The heritage feats for humans, elves, and half-elves are as follows:
Action Surge (human) +3 on attack roll w/ action point
Human Perseverance +1 on saves
Elven Precision - you can't take this because you don't have the elven accuracy racial feature
Light Step (elf) - increase group overland speed, +1 to Athletics and Stealth
Group Insight (half-elf) - grant allies +1 to insight and initiative
My suggestions are as follows.
Action Surge - this is great in combo with Eyebite. Use eyebite to blind target and give you combat advantage, then use your AP to make another attack that round, with combat advantage and +3 from action surge for +5.
Improved Initiative - attack first with First Strike. Best with a good ranged power like Sly Flourish or Trick Strike.
Backstabber - go for high damage sneak attack
JSL wrote: Artful Dodger vs. Brute Scoundrel Based on how you've described things, I think I'm leaning more Brute Soundrel than Artful Dodger. Doesn't mean I don't want to be dextrous and fleet-of-foot, but I'd like Ceelie to have quite a sting in hand-to-hand combat, whether she's sneak attacking or simply setting someone up for a sneak attack.
The elements of the half-elf race and skill selections that favor Charisma more than Strength are just to create some balance in Ceelie's character. Remember, I like jacks-of-all-trades and I hate one-trick ponies. So I want my characters to contribute in at least a moderately meaningful way in combat as well as social encounters. That means the skill selections and Charisma boost are purposeful on my part to ensure she's still got that side of the game covered. If you think I should switch out her Strength and Charisma scores to tweak things slightly, I wouldn't be averse to that idea...just so long as both Strength and Charisma are her secondary abilities behind Dexterity, I'm okay with either order.
JSL wrote: If you favor Eyebite, then you should go for Cha over Str; without an implement you will have trouble landing it at higher levels if you don't pump Cha. So, if you take Eyebite, it would be better to go the Dodger route, pump Cha, and leave Str where it is. Hmmm...you may have convinced me to look at a power other than Eyebite then. To me, it represented another means of giving Ceelie a branch into a magical effect (i.e., turning invisible) which I figured could serve her well during combats to set up combat advantage again. But maybe some of the other powers should take precedence right now...
JSL wrote: The extra damage from Brute Scoundrel is nice. This typically allows you to add your Str mod to your Dex mod, but also allows you to add double your Str mod (with a Str based attack) or your Str mod plus your Dex and Cha mods (with sly flourish). Throw in Backstabber (d8 instead of d6 on sneak attack), and you'll be tearing it up. Sounds like the direction I'd prefer. Would you recommend Dazing Strike or Torturous Strike? And for my daily power, should I go with the Blinding Barrage or Trick Strike?
JSL wrote: The hand-crossbow is statistically similar to the sling, but costs 25 gp. You would have to give up some daggers or the thieves tools. No to the hand crossbow then. I assume a shortbow is out of the question, as well (due to weapon proficiency restrictions or cost)?
JSL wrote: Regarding the whip... I assume that's just your rendition of it and not an official write-up in 4e terms?
--Neil
|
