Generally I don't understand why the system hasn't gone more Warlock on things and granted a the following:-
Detect Magic, Read Magic, Minor Missile(see below)
minor Missile(magic missle but roll to hit touch attack only does 1D4, 5th level 1D6, 10th 1D8,15th 1D10, 1D12 at 20th with a damage bonus of INT bonus or something).
At 4th level the mage should be able to cast Cantrips as a quickened action 1/day.
At 8th level the mage should be able to cast 1st level spells as a quickened action 1/day and cantrips quickened continually
At 12th level the mage should be able to cast 2nd level spells as a quickened action 1/day , 1st level should be quickened continually and no maximum use for cantrips.
At 16th level the mage should be able to cast 3rd level spells as a quickened action 1/day and so on......
My view of high level mage is Cantrips are so simple to him they are just a minor thought and a flick of the finger, very high level should be able to do 2nd level spell as a simple task( Quickened).
There should even be a lot more cantrips and low level spells-simple\ useful ones like produce flame, minor illusions, not combative.
What does do people think.
Have you read the Alpha?
Cantrips are all at will.
Most Sorcerers and Wizards get an at-will ranged touch attack for 1d6+ 1/2 level.
I don't think quickened first level spells and cantrips are a good idea. By 8th level wizard has plenty of powers to keep himself useful and doesn't need a second action every round.
Have you read the Alpha?
Cantrips are all at will.
Most Sorcerers and Wizards get an at-will ranged touch attack for 1d6+ 1/2 level.
I don't think quickened first level spells and cantrips are a good idea. By 8th level wizard has plenty of powers to keep himself useful and doesn't need a second action every round.
Edit: Oh... and definitely NOT quickened second and third level spells free ever. That is free 6th and 7th level equivalent spells.
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My view of high level mage is Cantrips are so simple to him they are just a minor thought and a flick of the finger, very high level should be able to do 2nd level spell as a simple task( Quickened).
There should even be a lot more cantrips and low level spells-simple\ useful ones like produce flame, minor illusions, not combative.
What does do people think.
I think as wizards increase in level, the usefulness of the lower-level spells (even the non-combat ones) decreases significanly in use, so getting as class abilities becomes an unessecarily complex addition to the rules because, really you've only got so much use for the spell and what else are you going to do with that low-level slot you've cleared up with an at-will power?
The concept is cool, but seems unnecessary when class powers could focus on other more unique things.
My view of high level mage is Cantrips are so simple to him they are just a minor thought and a flick of the finger, very high level should be able to do 2nd level spell as a simple task( Quickened).
There should even be a lot more cantrips and low level spells-simple\ useful ones like produce flame, minor illusions, not combative.
What does do people think.
I think as wizards increase in level, the usefulness of the lower-level spells (even the non-combat ones) decreases significanly in use, so getting as class abilities becomes an unessecarily complex addition to the rules because, really you've only got so much use for the spell and what else are you going to do with that low-level slot you've cleared up with an at-will power?
The concept is cool, but seems unnecessary when class powers could focus on other more unique things.
Thing is Wizards of the Coast put in metamagic feats which players don't use. I very rarely see Quicken Spell ever taken.
I've run a campaign through to 27th level and others into 18th level adn seen mage players balance up either a 4th level spell or a quickened 1st level spell and generally go with the non-quickened 4th level spell as this is much more effective( most don't bother with the quickened due to prerequisites).What I'm proposing is giving the mages the ability to cast armour, shield as a quickened action at levels where they will make a slight difference instead of hanging round the back for three rounds casting preparatory spells before getting involved.
It just brings the lower level spells into play at higher levels.
Thing is Wizards of the Coast put in metamagic feats which (ProSteve's) players don't use. I very rarely see Quicken Spell ever taken.
Many people do use quicken spell and getting an extra spell per round is definitely worth 4 spell levels. Just because your group doesn't use it doesn't mean plenty of other people don't.
Plenty of great candidates for quicken spell: Invisibility, shield, dispel magic, dimension door... plenty more going from memory here.
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Ive said before, and Ill add again here...
Make Metamagic Feats a spellcraft roll to add to a spell being cast.
Use this model:
1. A Wizard (or any spellcaster) gets 1 metamagic feat adjustment per day per 3 levels + Int adj. so a 6th level wizard with a 17 int gets to metamagic 5 times a day.
2. Have each meta magic feat have a DC to 'add' to a spell being cast...make the DC climb levels using the spell level modifier as the guide for the DC,....ie
1 level adjustment = DC 15
2 level adjustment = DC 18
3 level adjustment = DC 20
4 level adjustment = DC 22
5 level adjustment = DC 25
6 level adjustment = DC 28
7 level adjustment = DC 30
8 level adjustment = DC 33
basicly anytime you try to modify a spell...its harder the more things you try to do to it..so the adjustment is cumulative...try to quicken and empower a spell uses up 2 of the per day uses and makes the DC harder...
Catch my drift?
This would work...and make it so Casters WOULD use metamagics...and yet make it so it wasnt overbalancing.
dread,
If you've said it before then likely you've already heard. Overpowered.
Dc is set so many sixth level wizards will be able to quicken spells with a fairly low roll. Also having it tied to int and an int based skill seriously favors the wiz over other casters.
Metamagic does get used it isn't broken doesn't need fixing.
dread,
If you've said it before then likely you've already heard. Overpowered.
Dc is set so many sixth level wizards will be able to quicken spells with a fairly low roll. Also having it tied to int and an int based skill seriously favors the wiz over other casters.
Metamagic does get used it isn't broken doesn't need fixing.
Sorry Dennis, cannot agree with you. The Metamagic feats are badly broken and any mage character with an ounce of sense doesn't bother with them. Our group did initially try them out and gave them a go over a 2 year period but eventually it seemed like a waste of feats taking them and a waste of a higher level spell slot which could be put to better use.
The sudden Metamagic feats are worth a look at though, you only get a once per day metamagic feat use but the level's not modified.Spellcasting Characters get too few feats to waste them on metamagic feats.
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dread,
If you've said it before then likely you've already heard. Overpowered.
Dc is set so many sixth level wizards will be able to quicken spells with a fairly low roll. Also having it tied to int and an int based skill seriously favors the wiz over other casters.
Metamagic does get used it isn't broken doesn't need fixing.
Overpowered? well first, you are the first to actually comment on it...but Lets look at it closely before you make the off the cuff comment
1st: Wizards (or any other spell casters) still have to take the Feats
1. A Wizard (or any spellcaster) gets 1 metamagic feat adjustment per day per 3 levels + Int adj. so a 6th level wizard with a 17 int gets to metamagic 5 times a day.
2. Have each meta magic feat have a DC to 'add' to a spell being cast...make the DC climb levels using the spell level modifier as the guide for the DC,....ie
Variable: Heighten = to new level of effectiveness...DC = to diference
0 level adjustment = DC 10 (Black Lore of Moil, Born of Three Thunders, Cooperative, Energy Substitution, Lord of Uttercold)
1 level adjustment = DC 15 (Enlarge, Extend, Silent, Still, Fortify, Non-Lethal Substitution, Sanctum, Sculpt, Consecrate, Corrupt, Rapid)
2 level adjustment = DC 18 (Empower, Explosive, Split Ray, Transdimensional, Reach)
3 level adjustment = DC 20 (Maximize, Widen, Chain, Delayed, Repeat)
4 level adjustment = DC 22 (Quicken, Maximize, Energy Admixture, Twin)
5 level adjustment = DC 25
6 level adjustment = DC 28 (Persistent)
7 level adjustment = DC 30
8 level adjustment = DC 33
Examples:
1.Want to have a split Ray/Explosive spell-----DC 22 (2+2) and uses 2 of the per day metamagics avaialble
2. Want a Maximizeed Silent Spell- DC 24 (4+1) and uses 2 of the per day metamagics available
So lets look at how easy this is
level vs Likely Spell Craft Scores vs likely number of metamagics available per day vs roll needed for level 1/level 3 adjustment/8 level adjustment
1st- 4- 3- 11/16/29 (Int 16)
2nd- 5- 3- 10/15/28
3rd- 6- 4- 9/14/27
4th- 7- 4- 8/13/26 (Int 17)
5th- 8- 4- 7/12/25
6th- 9- 5- 6/11/24
7th- 10- 5- 5/10/23
8th- 11- 6- 4/9/22 (Int 18)
9th- 12- 7- 3/8/21
10th- 13- 7- 2/7/20
11th- 14- 7- 2/6/19
12th- 15- 8- 2/5/18 (Int 19)
13th- 16- 8- 2/4/17
14th- 17- 8- 2/3/16
15th- 18- 9- 2/2/15
16th- 19- 10- 2/2/14 (Int 20)
17th- 20- 10- 2/2/13
18th- 21- 11- 2/2/12
19th- 22- 11- 2/2/11
20th- 23- 11- 2/2/10
Now Im not saying this could not be tweaked to make it even more playable..all Im saying is maybe we should look at something along these lines for all metamagics for all casters. Wizards would be better than any other...but is that bad? and wouldnt it make Int something all casters might want then?
I like the idea of having Metamagics not need preparing, but be a possibility for any caster if he takes the feat on the spur of the moment....
Sorry Dennis, cannot agree with you. The Metamagic feats are badly broken and any mage character with an ounce of sense doesn't bother with them.
You know one of the things I really like about the Paizo board is that there are rarely the sort of snarky, sarcastic, and insulting flame wars you find on other boards. Occasionally I stumble across someone who cannot resist the urge to bring over this attitude from other boards. I don't talk to them.
Good bye.
Dread, here is how I see your suggestion.
At lower levels even basic meta-magic is an iffy thing, 40-50% chance of success at best. No one will take it at those levels. At higher levels there is a guarantee of success (skill checks don't autofail on a 1). The level where it becomes nearly guaranteed is lower than you think also.
An 8th level wizard:
+6 INT Bonus (starting INT of 20)
+3 Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
+3 Class skill bonus
+8 Ranks in the feat
+20 bonus means the character fails QUICKEN at 8th level only 10% of the time. Yes, that's a little aggressive but not stretching things much (for example an INT boosting item gives +1 and Magical Aptitude +2).
I mention quicken because that is the only metamagic which people will use this ability on once they get it. Now your 8th level caster is casting 2 spells/ round 9 times per day. Now maybe it won't happen at 8th level, many times characters don't start with maxed attributes, but it will certainly happen by 10th.
Personally the wizards I've played use meta-magic as is without issue. I also know a lot of people who use it as is. I must admit though that metamagic works best when you add a few non-core feats to the mix. I also think that many of the metamagic feats the penalty is too high for the effect achieved.
Some nice non-core stuff I would like to see something roughly equivalent to:
Metamagic school specialization - 3 times/ day apply metamagic spontaneously to spells from a single school (prereq spell focus)
Shape Spell - Does what it says shapes area effects... though as written it's a little broken.
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Dread, here is how I see your suggestion.
At lower levels even basic meta-magic is an iffy thing, 40-50% chance of success at best. No one will take it at those levels. At higher levels there is a guarantee of success (skill checks don't autofail on a 1). The level where it becomes nearly guaranteed is lower than you think also.
An 8th level wizard:
+6 INT Bonus (starting INT of 20)
+3 Skill Focus (Spellcraft)
+3 Class skill bonus
+8 Ranks in the feat+20 bonus means the character fails QUICKEN at 8th level only 10% of the time. Yes, that's a little aggressive but not stretching things much (for example an INT boosting item gives +1 and Magical Aptitude +2).
I mention quicken because that is the only metamagic which people will use this ability on once they get it. Now your 8th level caster is casting 2 spells/ round 9 times per day. Now maybe it won't happen at 8th level, many times characters don't start with maxed attributes, but it will certainly happen by 10th.
Personally the wizards I've played use meta-magic as is without issue. I also know a lot of people who use it as is. I must admit though that metamagic works best when you add a few non-core feats to the mix. I also think that many of the metamagic feats the penalty is too high for the effect achieved.
Some nice non-core stuff I would like to see something roughly equivalent to:
Metamagic school specialization - 3 times/ day apply metamagic spontaneously to spells from a single school (prereq spell focus)
Shape Spell - Does what it says shapes area effects... though as written it's a little broken.
I know it has potential to be something that could be abused...but then pretty much everything does. Its no worse than some of the PRC min maxing that folks do. Role Players will still role play and roll players will still min/max.
My biggest issue is Noone I know EVER uses metamagics...ever. out of 4 diferent gaming groups and possibly 20 online games?!
That means its no worth it to the majority of players. Yes, Pathfinder has a game mechanic in place for the Wizard- 'univeralist specialist'...but not to anyone else....
I would like some sort of mechanic put in place that made players want to use metamagics...otherwise why even have them?...
To me, the only way Ill ever see players use them is if there is some sort of way the characters can use them without actually memorizing a higher spell slot....(preparing..sorry had a flash back) ;)
I came up with this mechanic as a basis to work from...and yes I saw flaws with it as well...but as Ive often found, bouncing ideas off a game community always finds ways to improve things...
Another thing I was looking for is something that would make Spellcraft more usable...more vaulable..and lets face it...it is called Spell Craft for a reason....so a higher DC may be in order....and less times per day...
But I do disagree that Quicken would be the only one used...I can see someone in the right setting using Still or Silent...or some of the others...especially Maximize and Empower...;)
Dont forget this is a suggestion not just for Wizards....but for all Casters.
Now an alternative would be just dropping the DC and Spellcraft idea (but it does have a certain feel to me that it has potential) and make it a flat Xday that you could use any feats you had memorized....
I got nothin' for you. Raising the DC only delays the effect. In any case it should be a limited use ability and the cost of using the more powerful metamagics should be variable based on the effect.
There are some other suggestions floating around for making metamagic more spontaneous, one idea I saw floated was burning prepared spells to cast metamagic. That has it's issues also.
((Forgive me for bad spelling or messing up names, brain isn't functioning at full capacity and somewhat bad memory XD )
I'm not one for number crunching off the top of my head and all that jazz, but I do like Dread's idea. It may need some tweaking, but I think it's worth looking into.
My personal experience, Meta-Magic feats aren't that useful considering the cost (higher spell slot needed to cast it or longer cast time). I also see lower level spells becoming useless or sit unused at higher levels. I think with a system like this in place, they would at least become useful/more used in higher game play.
When I think of Meta-Magic feats and characters at high levels, I have this image of Elminster(sp) taking up a fireball slinging challenge, and decimating a large area with the spell. Not once, but twice in a row (might have been three can't remember), as easily as if he had been using a cantrip.
While he is an extreme example, it's what's in my mind. At high levels, lower level spells should be simple to cast. And with the knowledge of how a spell works (spellcraft), I don't see why you shouldn't be able to 'shape/craft' the spell to your liking (as long as you have the required Meta-Magic feat).
In Dread's example:
1.Want to have a split Ray/Explosive spell-----DC 22 (2+2) and uses 2 of the per day metamagics avaialble
I would say that instead of just adding the spell levels together to get a fourth level spell and use that DC, add a +3 or +5 to the DC for each Meta-Magic you're attempting to use on a spell.
Something like:
1) Split Ray+Explosive=DC 22+3(for difficulty)= DC 27 for the total.
2) Split Ray+Explosive+Maximize=DC 33+3(2nd Meta-Magic)+5(3rd Meta-magic)=DC 41 total
Just my two cents and idea.
Have you read the Alpha? Specifically the Universal (non) specialist?
"8th - Metamagic Mastery (Su): You can apply any one
metamagic feat that you know to a spell you are
about to cast. This does not alter the level of
the spell or the casting time. You can use this
ability once per day per two caster levels you
possess. Any time you use this ability to apply a
metamagic feat that increases the spell level by
more than 1, you must use an additional daily
usage for each level above 1 that the feat adds to
the spell."
The players I know have always had a problem with Metamagic feats. After a year or so, they gave up on them entirely. I'd like to see this rule (or one like it) become the norm.
I am currently playing a Wizard with Universal chosen so I can test this in the field.
Cheers,
Brisco.
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dread,
If you've said it before then likely you've already heard. Overpowered.
Dc is set so many sixth level wizards will be able to quicken spells with a fairly low roll. Also having it tied to int and an int based skill seriously favors the wiz over other casters.
Metamagic does get used it isn't broken doesn't need fixing.
Sorry Dennis, cannot agree with you. The Metamagic feats are badly broken and any mage character with an ounce of sense doesn't bother with them. Our group did initially try them out and gave them a go over a 2 year period but eventually it seemed like a waste of feats taking them and a waste of a higher level spell slot which could be put to better use.
The sudden Metamagic feats are worth a look at though, you only get a once per day metamagic feat use but the level's not modified.Spellcasting Characters get too few feats to waste them on metamagic feats.
This is the first time I've ever run into people who think metamagic feats aren't worth taking.
What sort of games were you playing and what sort of books were allowed (core / complete series / 3rd party etc..)? Not trying to run down your play style, just interested in the complete picture.
This is the first time I've ever run into people who think metamagic feats aren't worth taking.
What sort of games were you playing and what sort of books were allowed (core / complete series / 3rd party etc..)? Not trying to run down your play style, just interested in the complete picture.
This question was mainly directed at the others, but here’s my two cents worth.
The crux was that Metamagic feats raised the level of a spell. Once you do that, you might as well just cast a spell of that higher level (which they did) and save the feat slot for something else.
As for the game style, it was anything but vanilla D&D. We were using all sorts of templates, racial levels of monsters, and almost any feat from a book the players bought. It was a DM’s nightmare. I was a player and a DM in games running concurrently.
Pathfinder has made the core races and classes interesting again, so most of us are now limiting ourselves to the Beta book. The PDF file is invaluable. We are less powerful, but having no less fun.
Cheers,
Brisco.