How many DMs "wing" their adventures. When I run other systems I tend to have a written outline of key points that need to be made and key NPCs and then kind of fill in the rest as we play in a way that best suits the players and their characters. When I run D&D I feel like a really need to have things fully planned out and it feels restrictive to me. I have been using the PAizo modules a lot to get past that since I can read them once and mostly "wing" it from there. My problem is I want to run a more homebrew with my own adventures and I keep getting stalled on details.
DO other DMs wing it ever and if so how much if planned out? Any tips on the best way to go about it? DO you have a basic map and some key monsters or is it a bulleted layout of each area and a monster and a treasure in each area where you fill in the description when the players get to it? Any hints would be great.
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I use a basic outline of the adventure and roll with the punches from then on. I have been running the same campaign for the last 18+ years, still following the same outline [with a stack of campaign notes underneath]. We have had an module now and again, but most of the campaign depends on the actions of the party and the DM going with the results of those actions on the game world.
Now for game details [i.e. monster stats, treasure, etc] I make notes regarding these items and make sure that if a monster has a magic item [weapon, armor, potion, whatever] that they use it. it just doesn't lay in the chest at the back of the storeroom, treasure vault, etc.
The best advice I can give is to make a campaign outline, setup your major NPC's that the party will meet, stat up some of the most likely monsters that the party will encounter that session and maybe the next session as well.
If you have modules that you like, and they fit into your world, just work them in. I feel that module prep does take more time, but I am sure it is different for every DM out there.
What details do you stall on? Having maps? NPCs? Something else? Where do your players deviate from the expected course?
I wing a lot. Now, before every session I think about it, prepare maps where the PCs are likely to go, and have a good idea of what sorts of encounters they might face. However, if they go out of bounds, so to speak, I am ready willing and able to improvise what they find.
There's a couple of tricks to this. If you can visualize buildings and structures in your head, you don't need a map. You can lay it out on Tac-Tiles or a battlemat when you need it. Only do this if it's not vital or not going to come up again. (If you need it again, copy the map before erasing.) I have a stock list of names for NPCs in case I need one in a hurry. Then I cross it off. I take notes after the session so I know what happened and where I wasn't prepared. if they are heading for a big fight that I'd really rather be prepped for, I try to divert them, stall or otherwise hold them off from it. If there's no helping it, I declare a break, take my DMG or MM with some blank paper in it into the bathroom, and get ready as best I can in 10 minutes.
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I wing it quite a bit, and encourage players going off on tangents. Even in published modules.
I start with a basic outline, with key plot points, NPCs, and locations, stat up the encounters/combats, and work with the player's backgrounds to come up with a hook, then have at it. Rarely does the adventure turn out the way I planned it, but it's always a good time.
When using published adventures, I highlight the key points and make sure I understand the basic plotline for each section, then incorporate PC player concepts.
As for maps, I have a very basic map of the campaign world drawn up, but I tend to make a lot of the smaller details up on the fly. Naming inns, towns, and areas tends to happen as we go, and the map actually builds itself as the game progresses. It's pretty funny, as every town seems to have a tavern called the Thirsty Unicorn. I've had players ask me if they could start a franchise in their strongholds...
I always wing it. Players never do what I expect, so it is pointless to plan. One of my favorite tricks is to the use the players to fill in the plot for me. As they discuss what is going on amongst themselves, and one offers an interesting possibility, I go with it.
These have all been good suggestion. I think having a rough map and kep events that I want to happen is a real good start. Do most folks have a lot of handy tables with say traps by CR or treasure handy when they wing it?
Isn't that what the DMG is for? ;)
Seriously, I used to, but I dropped that because I'm not much of a dungeoneering DM. I tend to just make up a cool item on the spot, and then let the PCs identify it. That often happens later anyway, buying me time. Yes, it does lead to the occasional weird magical piece that they just sell (like the Salt Armor), but it also leads to amazing stuff that they never part with.
I almost always wing it. Like CourtFool said listening to player talk has provided endless plot hooks and story lines. I learned this DMing a crap-ton of OWoD vampire. good times.
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Darn post eating monster!
Long story short, I try to do both depending on the style of campaign. For heavy roleplay and immersiveness I stick to a plan, so the PCs can get the nitty-gritty details.
For fun and fast bash-in-the-door games, I like to wing it.
Keeping a notepad on you at all times is very helpful for writing down ideas, even at work!
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I try to do all the maps beforehand (since that's the part i find hardest) and a basic outline for the adventure, something like "players asked to babysit teenage girl. she leaves for club. they need to find her." and maybe do a couple of the most important npcs. everything else is all in my head since i learned after a while that the players are going to do their own thing and there is no point in writing everything down when it might change and i'll need to improvise anyway.
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My group doesn't play a lot so I have time for some indepth preparation. That means I basically write a module fitting in where they are heading in the campaign.
Since I'm immersed in the story and know the background of it all even if they go off-track I can wing it easily enough. At the end of the session I'll always ask them what their plans are next so I can plan for it.
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I tend to use published adventures (thus my presence here at Paizo), however, its a rare day that my players stick to the plot.
I'm currently playing AoW with my group and they're playing evil characters. I've had to wing more sessions than I care to remember but it's been one of the most memorable campaigns we've played (for DnD at least)
I find I also make up stats and modify on the fly because my gaming group can vary from 3 players to 8 players in any session (just about all married with kids now so it makes playing availabilty kind of random). I often have to toughen up monsters or add extra goons in when lots of players come. Funnily enough, if I only have three players I rarely dumb the fight down and it often leads to much more exciting games (though I've come close to TPK's doing this).
To sum up, yeah I think winging it is pretty much canon for most DM's I know.
Cheers
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Oh yeah, I just remembered. There were some articles in Dungeon mag close to the end that were all about winging it. Including the basics of making stats up on the fly. I don't remember which ones but if I can find them I'll post you the issue numbers and see if you can't get hold of them somehow.
Also, one thing I've learned. Story is always more important than rules. Bend them or even break them if you have to. My players love the story elements, even if they don't realise the rules were bent slightly to make it work. I mostly use this for magical effects or keeping recurring villains alive. I had one NPC wizard in the AoW campaign I mentioned earlier become a major villain. My players had to kill him three times in different sessions because I just kept bringing him back, even though he really didn't have the resources for it. Made it great when they finally brought him down for good. They still talk about it nearly every game session since.
If it makes the story sound or feel better, then do it. Worry about how it happened afterwords, it may even lead to new plot hooks.
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Oh yeah, I just remembered. There were some articles in Dungeon mag close to the end that were all about winging it. Including the basics of making stats up on the fly. I don't remember which ones but if I can find them I'll post you the issue numbers and see if you can't get hold of them somehow.
Also, one thing I've learned. Story is always more important than rules. Bend them or even break them if you have to. My players love the story elements, even if they don't realise the rules were bent slightly to make it work. I mostly use this for magical effects or keeping recurring villains alive. I had one NPC wizard in the AoW campaign I mentioned earlier become a major villain. My players had to kill him three times in different sessions because I just kept bringing him back, even though he really didn't have the resources for it. Made it great when they finally brought him down for good. They still talk about it nearly every game session since.
If it makes the story sound or feel better, then do it. Worry about how it happened afterwords, it may even lead to new plot hooks.
I agree with this, in some respects. I like to plan major points, and wing the rest. For instance, when putting together an NPC villain to pit the players against, plan them out, but don't nail down every last detail.
Say we're talking about a spellcaster, I'd suggest having only 75% of his spells prepared/known. This way, you have the basic theme for what he's capable of figured out, while still leaving some availability for something the party wouldn't expect. Or maybe a non-spellcaster, put together most of the gear she would have, but leave a couple item slots occupied, but unnamed. That Barbarian Lieutenant may be wearing some kind of magic ring, but why pin it down as a Ring of Featherfall when the party manages to confront her at the edge of a lava flow.
I definitely agree. Winging it is an art and a science. You really have to know your characters and know what difficulties you can and can't throw at them.
Unfortunately, a DM who is able to wing it well usually has a lot of experience and creativity. If you don't have one of those skills, rely heavily on the other.
Characters want to feel like they're in a real world, and they will always try to push boundaries or go off track.
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Too true. Its hard to run fast and free when you don't know your players. When you don't know them it becomes so much harder to find things which motivate them to action.
An example would be that most non-roleplayers get tired of talking magical items.
Most powergamers don't want to loot a bag of 50 Quall's Feather Tree Tokens.
And so forth.
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These have all been good suggestion. I think having a rough map and kep events that I want to happen is a real good start. Do most folks have a lot of handy tables with say traps by CR or treasure handy when they wing it?
The easiest way to set CR's is work out how easy or hard you want it to be and then look at the best statted character for that situation.
Say a Rogue has perception at 15 and you want an easy trap. Set the DC to 20. This gives he/she a 75% pass rate.
If you want it harder set the DC at 30, now they've only got a 25% pass rate.
Also for traps I just make it d6 damage per level of the trap (or party)
As much as I may get flamed for it, the 4th edition DM guide has a real intersting guide to traps and how they work. If you can get to a copy have a read and pilfer a bunch of ideas from it.
Take into consideration buffs etc as well. Save DC's for spells get all sorts of wonky when you get to higher levels as the players often have buffs up that affect their natural stats. Feel free to pump those Cr's up if they keep passing easily. But only if it's interesting for the game that they fail.
My group doesn't like walkovers all the time. However they do like them occasionally. It's a tricky thing. I try to throw in one easy game for every two tough ones. Gives em a sense of achievement and power but still keeps em excited.
Cheers
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My group doesn't like walkovers all the time. However they do like them occasionally. It's a tricky thing. I try to throw in one easy game for every two tough ones. Gives em a sense of achievement and power but still keeps em excited.
Yeah, that's what I call the "Cleave Factor", obviously named for the feat. Every now and then, the party has to come across a situation which is beyond the locals, but something that they can just stomp on. Most of the enemies in this are Cleave fodder for the warriors, and low-save targets for for the spellcasters' area effect powers.
Kinda like taking on a full bandit camp with 5 level 15 characters. These bandits may only be an average of level 4 or 5 Warriors, and while no strain to the players, they are a blight upon this poor farming village. You never know, they may try solving this dilemma through more political means, sheer intimidation("Don't you know who we are?!"), or take over the bandit camp if they're an evil party.
It makes them feel big and mighty. Which is good. And if you're lucky, while they're on that little power high, they might get reckless in the next major plot point and you can turn things around on them.
If they are confused, just respond "Hey, even Superman plucked kittens out of trees in between battling super-villains. Not every problem is an epic challenge. Sometimes its just a choice of doing the right or wrong things, even if it is small."
Plus, helping some little poh-duhnk farming community or commandeering an entire bandit camp may give them a place to hide later down the line that their enemies don't know about. Small inconveniences that take a little time for them may become great boons to them further in the campaign, and its always good to give them the opportunity, whether or not they take it.
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Why work out the DC? In such situations I just make up a target number that feels right and thereby cut out the middleman. So an 'easy trap' just needs the rogue to roll a 6+ to defeat. That's a 75% pass rate. Same result, less hassle.Say a Rogue has perception at 15 and you want an easy trap. Set the DC to 20. This gives he/she a 75% pass rate.
If you want it harder set the DC at 30, now they've only got a 25% pass rate.
Aye, this is a fair point and I do this occasionally, particularly during combats. However I also tend to tell my players the saves required or DC's to dsable traps. I know many people think this gets rid of the realism but my guys enjoy knowing the scores to beat. Makes the dice roll more exciting somehow.
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In my more recent games I do a lot of winging it. I stat up the key NPCs and a general outline of the plot, mostly what's the 'starting problem' that's presented to the PCs and some of the challenges / interesting situations they may encounter on the way. If it's a site-based adventure I usually draw a detailed map, but that's mainly because I like drawing detailed maps.
Why work out the DC? In such situations I just make up a target number that feels right and thereby cut out the middleman. So an 'easy trap' just needs the rogue to roll a 6+ to defeat. That's a 75% pass rate. Same result, less hassle.Say a Rogue has perception at 15 and you want an easy trap. Set the DC to 20. This gives he/she a 75% pass rate.
If you want it harder set the DC at 30, now they've only got a 25% pass rate.
Probably the thing I do the most, even when I am not completely "winging it". I usually just assume a DC 10 for an everyday action, DC 15 for something most people could do with luck, and DC 20 for something that requires extensive training (magical traps, docking a ship, etc), DC 25 for something very specialized (identifying a potion), and DC 30 for something bordering on legendary. Throw in circumstance modifiers to DC and voila!
I usually avoid adjusting this number in my head if things don't work out, unless I was way off and even the PC rolling a 19 fails the check.
Thanks for everyone's help. I have been DM'ing for 15 years but have used modules the last five or more so I was kinda feeling like I didn't have my 'wing it' legs anymore. I think it's just about doing it and adjusting as I go. I will definately incorporate a lot of your suggestions.