Kain Darkwind wrote: Ah, so base it directly on barbarian level? That sounds like a better direction to take, although I'm not sure 2 rage points per level is honestly sufficient...at 5th level, that's 10 more points...not a whole lot compared to the feats that it replaced. 4 points per shot might be better. Maybe.
At 5th level 2+5*(2+3)=27 points of rage adding 10 points of rage is a > 33% increase for a Barbarian with a 16 CON, pretty decent. Maybe make the first one 2 and the second one 4 since higher level barbarians burn rage much faster.
Regardless, I think it's best to playtest as written before experimenting.
Dennis da Ogre wrote: Regardless, I think it's best to playtest as written before experimenting. No doubt. The orcish hordes descending upon my players due to you and fellow Paizoians' urging will be taking Power Attack and Overhead Chop, not Extended Rage.
First impressions
At a first glance, I loved the new barbarian rage system. I found it very attractive compared to the DD3.5 version :
* Better flexibility
* More rages per day if necessary
* Longer rages per day if necessary
* No rounds lost raging with no more enemies to smash
* No malus when fatigued
* New special moves aka rage powers that are on top of what existed before
DD3.5 vs PF
If i reuse the comparison mentioned earlier in the thread, a Brb Lvl 10 with CON 16 :
* In DD3.5, it's got 3*8 = 24 rounds per day
* In PF, it's got 52 rage points = 3*9 + 25 = 24 rounds per day + 25 rage points of special moves.
It simply is the same as before, but with some free special moves. If you consider the added flexibility, it's clearly superior to me.
Rage powers cost
Now, what seems to be the issue to some, is the cost of the rage powers. From what i saw, you can pick some very good ones at 2, 4 or 6 rage cost. Let's assume an average 4 rage cost. In the above example, 25 rage is about 6 special moves in 24 rounds of combat. If that's a conscious design choice, it means rage powers should be seen as very tactical moves to save carefully and use at the proper moment. But if they were meant to be spammed a bit more, the price could be revised down indeed.
Raging + rage cost
But what really bothers me, isn't the price of rage powers, but the price of rage itself. Let's consider a Brb Lvl 20 with CON 18 :
* In DD3.5, it's got 6*11 = 66 rounds per day of mighty rage
* In PF, it's got 122 rage points = 6*12 + 50 = 66 rounds per day of normal rage + 50 rage points of special moves
* or 30 rounds per day of mighty rage without any special moves.
That's simply worse that what it used to be. If addressing the lack of high level barbarians was the point of the class revision, that won't help.
The increasing price of greater and mighty rage basically forces barbarian players to stick to their normal rage, relying on special moves instead. IMHO, the price should either stick to 1 rage for the raging + 1 rage per round, or 1/2/4 rage for the raging + 1 rage per round.
Bone wrote: Raging + rage cost
But what really bothers me, isn't the price of rage powers, but the price of rage itself. Let's consider a Brb Lvl 20 with CON 18 :
* In DD3.5, it's got 6*11 = 66 rounds per day of mighty rage
* or 30 rounds per day of mighty rage without any special moves.
I've seen this math before and it fails to excite me. 66 rounds of rage? Is every single combat going to last 11 rounds? Unlikely. The average combat is much more likely around 5 rounds in which case 6 rages gives you 30 rounds of combat. What if one combat only lasts 3 rounds? Suddenly you 'waste' 8 rounds of rage. If 11 round combats were the rule then I might be swayed but I see a lot more 3 rounds encounters than I see 11 round encounters. Lets not even get into the fact that we do get occasional 15 round encounters in which case the classic 3.5 barbarian is totally screwed prior to level 17.
Also, 30 rounds of combat == Wizard 20 is down to 6-12 of his lowest level spells, Cleric 20 is long out of healing and down to 6-12 of his lowest level spells.
Finally... the chances your Barbarian 20 isn't going to have a belt of bears endurance (or whatever it's called) and have a CON of 22 or 24 (or more) boosting his rage points by 40-60 are rather slim.
Dennis da Ogre wrote: Finally... the chances your Barbarian 20 isn't going to have a belt of bears endurance (or whatever it's called) and have a CON of 22 or 24 (or more) boosting his rage points by 40-60 are rather slim. While your other points are fair, this one seems off. It states in the PDF that temporary increases to Con do not boost rage points.
I could be wrong but i think that after 24 hours wearing a stat boosting item it no longer acts as a temporary boost.
Kain Darkwind wrote: Dennis da Ogre wrote: Finally... the chances your Barbarian 20 isn't going to have a belt of bears endurance (or whatever it's called) and have a CON of 22 or 24 (or more) boosting his rage points by 40-60 are rather slim. While your other points are fair, this one seems off. It states in the PDF that temporary increases to Con do not boost rage points. Belt of Mighty Constitution wrote: This belt has a large golden buckle, usually depicting the image of a bear. The belt grants the wearer an enhancement bonus to
Constitution of +2, +4, or +6. This bonus is a temporary ability
bonus until the belt has been worn for 24 hours.
After 24 hours it's considered a permanent bonus. Intelligence boosting items also grant you skill points, etc.
I think pathfinder pretty clearly stated that buffs to your con have no effect on your rage points, in which case it wouldnt matter if the belt made the buff perm. or not. However I do think that an excellent point was made , how many barbarians rage for 66 rounds in a 24 hour period, thats ALOT of combat, thats like "300" spartan level fighting there. Ive been playing this game (in its various versions) for 24 years now and i don't think i've ever been in rage that long. Which just go to show you that the math can be exactly right , and still misrepresent when you look at it realistically.
Dennis da Ogre wrote: I've seen this math before and it fails to excite me. 66 rounds of rage? Is every single combat going to last 11 rounds? Unlikely. The average combat is much more likely around 5 rounds in which case 6 rages gives you 30 rounds of combat. What if one combat only lasts 3 rounds? Suddenly you 'waste' 8 rounds of rage. If 11 round combats were the rule then I might be swayed but I see a lot more 3 rounds encounters than I see 11 round encounters. Lets not even get into the fact that we do get occasional 15 round encounters in which case the classic 3.5 barbarian is totally screwed prior to level 17.
Also, 30 rounds of combat == Wizard 20 is down to 6-12 of his lowest level spells, Cleric 20 is long out of healing and down to 6-12 of his lowest level spells.
Finally... the chances your Barbarian 20 isn't going to have a belt of bears endurance (or whatever it's called) and have a CON of 22 or 24 (or more) boosting his rage points by 40-60 are rather slim.
I love the flexibility of the PF system, and i never questioned it. It's still clear to me that it's superior to the DD3.5 one.
My sole concern is a bad mighty rage scaling, leading players to use the base rage exclusively at high levels.
Of course, fights aren't lasting 30 rounds. So if you want to take into account the fact that combats are usually shorter, then 122 rage buys you :
* 6*4*5 = 6 combats of 4 rounds in mighty rage + 2 rage for rage powers
* 6*4*3 = 6 combats of 2 rounds in mighty rage + 50 rage for rage powers
Is it too tight? Is that enough? Maybe you're right, that's more than enough. But I still feel that sacrificing 4/2 STR + 4/2 CON by using normal/greater rage will allow the use rage powers aplenty, ending up being more efficient and more fun.
As for items impact on this system, I'd consider CON boost items as non-temporary. And these 40-60 added rage points are what could possibly save the day. Still, i'm not fully convinced.
joseph kempton wrote: I think pathfinder pretty clearly stated that buffs to your con have no effect on your rage points, in which case it wouldnt matter if the belt made the buff perm. or not. From PF alpha3 page 12 : "Temporary increases to Constitution, such as those gained from rage and spells like bear’s endurance, do not increase a barbarian’s total number of rage points."
No mention done about item buffs, which wouldn't fall in the above description, or so i'd consider. After 24 hours of course (as everyone's sleeping in full plate armor ^_^)
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