Trying to decide if this is too open to a TPK.
The situation is, the party has to climb some stone stairs carved into the side of a rock cliff. Think of the stairs Smeagol takes Frodo and Sam up in LOTR, except not quite that narrow or steep.
Goblins defend the top of the staircase. They have ranged weapons. They've also assembled some boulders (not overly large) to push over the edge toward any PCs heading up. The total climb is around 100 feet in height.
Also, goblins at the top are going to have pretty good cover with respect to climbing PCs.
I'm a little concerned that the party is going to take too much of a beating on the way up this thing. I'm trying to tweak the number of goblins, their resources, etc., but I don't want it to be a cake walk either.
Any ideas?
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Like most encounters, it depends on how well-prepared the party is.
If they know what's coming, and have a few days to prepare, I imagine a party loaded for bear with protection from normal missiles scrolls, soften earth and stone spells memorized (and cast on one side of the stairs ahead of them, sending the bounders off the cliffside), sleep (range is greater than 100 feet) and ranged weapons, should do well.
Like most encounters, it depends on how well-prepared the party is.
If they know what's coming, and have a few days to prepare, I imagine a party loaded for bear with protection from normal missiles scrolls, soften earth and stone spells memorized (and cast on one side of the stairs ahead of them, sending the bounders off the cliffside), sleep (range is greater than 100 feet) and ranged weapons, should do well.
Those are good points. My campaigns tend to be lower in magic, so a level 3 party wouldn't have a lot of that stuff. Certainly, this adventure takes place far away from anywhere you'd find those things. But I want the adventure to work in the "usual" campaign, so I need to be taking those things into consideration.
Do you feel the average level 3 party in 4E will have that stuff? The nearest town is more of a village, and so far as I have it written there aren't going to be magic resources available there. Perhaps that needs to change? Provide a few scrolls etc?
Since this is the 4th Edition forum, I'm thinking you want an analysis using 4th Edition mechanics. There are no protection from normal missiles spells or anything of the sort, but you wont need those spells anyway.
I would say that, yeah, in 3rd Edition it would be extremely easy to wipe out the party using goblins and boulders, since they will take quite a few hits on the way up, and cant take many hits.
In 4th Edition, if you want to model goblins tossing lots of rocks at the party, why not look to traps? Rockslides are level 1 lurkers that cost 100 XP out of your budget. For each shot you want the goblins to be able to take, just spend the XP. I would say that one is probably enough, and just spend the rest on goblins until you get the encounter filled out.
The party is at a great disadvantage, what with cover and the like, but generally a party can tackle encounters of 2 levels higher without worrying about a TPK. I'd say that it would be tough, but still doable.
goblin hexer (level 3 controller)
2 goblin sharpshooters (level 2 artillery)
2 goblin warriors (level 1 skirmisher)
2 goblin cutters (level 1 minion)
rockslide (level 1 lurker)
Total: 750 XP (the "norm" for a five man 3rd-level party)
I would have the hexer and sharpshooters stay up top and try to pick the party off as the others climb or move down to try and push them down or knife 'em. More dynamic and engaging.
Since this is the 4th Edition forum, I'm thinking you want an analysis using 4th Edition mechanics.
Thanks. I am intending it for 4th Edition. Still haven't gotten used to thinking exclusively in those terms, which I need to do for this adventure.
I like the encounter set up the way you did it. Good idea with the rockslide. I was thinking of having goblins rolling separate boulders down at the party over the course of the encounter, but that may be needlessly complicated (and makes the encounter too tough). A single rockslide at the right time might be better, and it makes it easier to deal with in terms of the XP budget.
Thanks for the advice.
Hey not a problem, man. You could also give the goblins ranged attacks that are rocks instead of javelins. Same effect, different description. :-)
Feel free to ask for more advice any time!
Well maybe you can use another 4E aproach.
Make the 1st part of the combat a skill challenge. If they succeed they reach the top without any damage ( and may have taken down some of the enemies) on a failure they reach the top but have suffered some damage ( making the following combat even harder).
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Well maybe you can use another 4E aproach.
Make the 1st part of the combat a skill challenge. If they succeed they reach the top without any damage ( and may have taken down some of the enemies) on a failure they reach the top but have suffered some damage ( making the following combat even harder).
I was abut to suggest the same thing. This sopunds like 2 encounters:
The first encounter is a Skill Challenge. 8 Successes before 4 failures.
Athletics check to move quickly up the stairs while avoiding boulders.
Nature check to identify and make use of natural outcroppings to "hide" beneath.
Maybe a Dungeoneering check as well. Essentially there are 8 segments to the stairs, each success brings them closer to the top. Each failure triggers a "trap" (the boulder attacks a character - prefereably the failing character) 4 failures in total triggers a section of the stair to crumble away requiring an additional athletics check to cross (its not a hole but rather very difficult terrain to cross) essentially adding a 9th success requirement to the skill challenge.
Once the characters get to the top they can either a) short rest (the goblins need to catch their breath too after hurling boulders) or b) press on. In this option the goblins might suffer a -2 penalty (DMs friend) to all rolls to reflect the fact that they are winded.
I was abut to suggest the same thing. This sopunds like 2 encounters:The first encounter is a Skill Challenge. 8 Successes before 4 failures.
Athletics check to move quickly up the stairs while avoiding boulders.
Nature check to identify and make use of natural outcroppings to "hide" beneath.
Maybe a Dungeoneering check as well. Essentially there are 8 segments to the stairs, each success brings them closer to the top. Each failure triggers a "trap" (the boulder attacks a character - prefereably the failing character) 4 failures in total triggers a section of the stair to crumble away requiring an additional athletics check to cross (its not a hole but rather very difficult terrain to cross) essentially adding a 9th success requirement to the skill challenge.Once the characters get to the top they can either a) short rest (the goblins need to catch their breath too after hurling boulders) or b) press on. In this option the goblins might suffer a -2 penalty (DMs friend) to all rolls to reflect the fact that they are winded.
Add a bluff check to taunt enemies to attack a covered space (automiss).
Intimidate to make the enemies stagger for 1 round.Stealth for obvious reasons.
Insight to try to predict the next area the enemies will target and avoid it.
etc.
Yeah, I thought about the skill challenge as well, but the goblins are going to be trying to used ranged attacks while the PCs are climbing, not just rolling rocks onto them. I don't want skill challenges to turn into something that take the place of actions that are better played out. To me, if you start substituting skill challenges for combat, you're taking a lot of options away from the players (and in this case from the monsters as well). Doesn't quite feel right to me. How do you handle more traditional ranged attacks on the PCs if you wrap this into a skill challenge?
Yeah, I thought about the skill challenge as well, but the goblins are going to be trying to used ranged attacks while the PCs are climbing, not just rolling rocks onto them. I don't want skill challenges to turn into something that take the place of actions that are better played out. To me, if you start substituting skill challenges for combat, you're taking a lot of options away from the players (and in this case from the monsters as well). Doesn't quite feel right to me. How do you handle more traditional ranged attacks on the PCs if you wrap this into a skill challenge?
Make it that every time they fail a skill check they open themselves for an attack and then roll the attack normally. On the other hand if the player succeeds in the skill check have him move upwards with full cover/or totally evading the attack.
So with this you can have players with poor climbing skills at least use other alternatives and still get closer to their goal.
Hmmm...thank guys. I'm going to have to think about this quite a bit.
For skill challenge, what's the consequence of the 4 failures? They don't make it up the stairs? That would grind things to a halt I think. They're all killed by boulders? Definitely a halt :) They suffer damage and attacks and have to try again?
Also, when they get to the top I think they're going to have to go straight into the fight. The goblins may be a little tired (at least the ones who were tumbling boulder) but the PCs will be even more tired it seems, dodging climbing, etc. The goblins are craven but not dumb, they're going to attack right away it seems to me.
There is some ruminating to be done!
Hmmm...thank guys. I'm going to have to think about this quite a bit.
For skill challenge, what's the consequence of the 4 failures? They don't make it up the stairs? That would grind things to a halt I think. They're all killed by boulders? Definitely a halt :) They suffer damage and attacks and have to try again?
Dont ever make the result of a failed skill challenge death or something so permanent. Skill challenges are there to try to entice/motivate/involve every player into the action. In this case with the skill challenge not only the good climbers and range combatants can apport, but someone skilled in an otherwise irrelevant skills can be part of the action ( for some skill examples see the posts above).
As for your question, if you make it that everytime they fail a skill roll they get attacked, that is enough punishment in itself. They will reach topside with some wounds. But if you want a more definite punch to their skill challenge failure, make it so that the enemies delayed the players long enough to set defensive positions( they get extra bonuses to defenses) or the players are tired and strained (give them penalties to either attacks or defenses or both).
At least thats the way I woudl do it.
Hope that helps.
If you're going to go the skill challenge route, I'd argue the result is that the characters are either dazed when they get to the top (so tired they can only either move or attack in a round and are wide open to opportunity attacks) or that they take a set amount of "damage" in terms of exaustion and loss of momentum.
That said, I like the idea of doing the battle as a battle. Seems more fun. Rather than try to make the boulders into a trap, which seems a bit more pain than payoff (since you only get one and have to pay generously for it) you could instead give two of the goblin warriors a few rocks to roll as weapons in addition to their crossbows. Give the rocks a damage you think is fair. Maybe a d10 instead of the d4 they get for their crossbows. Plus there's a neat thing with Great Position, where if they move a lot they add a d6 to damage. So maybe it could look like one is hightailing it, but then he turns around and makes a running charge into one of the last boulders and sends it roaring down for big damage. Could be a fun use for that. Granted I'd give them a limited number of boulders--maybe two each. By the end of the fight I'd have them packing crossbows with the rest of the rabble.
That and I'd have as many minions as possible. They don't make any realistic sense at all, but boy oh boy are they fun to fight. I'd have the two warriors, whoever the lead goblin is going to be (an underboss may be too much--maybe a blackblade with a special ability) and then use the remaining point value to pack in as many 25 point cutters as you can.
Wow...I just checked my math and you could buy 17 cutters with that. Maybe that's a little TOO much of a good thing. Oh well. Hey! More points to buy fun stuff with at least!