Sorcerers still without Diplomacy as class skill?

[-Archangel-]

As the title says. Sorcerers were liars and cheats in 3.5e with only Bluff as class skill, and now they are bullies as well?
So channeling magic through your blood does not allow you to actually talk to people like normal folks? You can be as Charismatic as hell, but if you lie and bully others will not like you (they will up to the moment you fail once in these attempts).

[Wellard]

Totally and whole heartedly agree with the sentiments expressed above

Nuff said

[Paul Watson]

-Archangel- wrote:

As the title says. Sorcerers were liars and cheats in 3.5e with only Bluff as class skill, and now they are bullies as well?

So channeling magic through your blood does not allow you to actually talk to people like normal folks? You can be as Charismatic as hell, but if you lie and bully others will not like you (they will up to the moment you fail once in these attempts).

I agree, but to be fair cross-class skills only lag slightly behind class skills in PfRPG rather than being at half-ranks as in 3E, so the lack of a class skill isn't the impediment it used to be.

[-Archangel-]

Paul Watson wrote:

-Archangel- wrote:

As the title says. Sorcerers were liars and cheats in 3.5e with only Bluff as class skill, and now they are bullies as well?

So channeling magic through your blood does not allow you to actually talk to people like normal folks? You can be as Charismatic as hell, but if you lie and bully others will not like you (they will up to the moment you fail once in these attempts).

I agree, but to be fair cross-class skills only lag slightly behind class skills in PfRPG rather than being at half-ranks as in 3E, so the lack of a class skill isn't the impediment it used to be.

True that cross-class is less of a impediment in 3P but having Diplomacy as class skill for Sorcerers is a matter of flavor as well.

[Agamemnon2]

I think it'd fit, considering that all the other Charisma-based classes get it.

[Freesword]

While Diplomacy fits their Charismatic nature, I think there is a very good flavor reason for it's absence. The bloodline that gives them their powers also gives them a feeling (aura if you prefer) of being "not quite right". There is just something about them that just doesn't sit well with ordinary folks. A certain "wrongness". In other words, they just ain't natural.

Bluff and Intimidate are class skills from being the easiest methods of compensating for this. Diplomacy takes more effort.

[Pygon]

If a class could, as part of its style, serve as a diplomat, then sure, Diplomacy should be a class skill. I don't envision sorcerors that way. Just because Cha is their primary attribute doesn't mean they are typically good diplomats, nor is the class meant to be so.

[modus0]

Even the 3.5 PHB implies that Sorcerers should have Diplomacy as a class skill, despite not giving it to them.

Under Role it has this too say:

3.5 Player's Handbook wrote:

Since a sorcerer often has a powerful presence that gives him a way with people, he may serve as the "face" of an adventuring party, negotiating, bargaining, and speaking for others. The sorcerer's spells often help him sway others or gain information, so he makes an excellent spy or diplomat for an adventuring group.

I know Pathfinder has mitigated a large portion of the problem by removing the 1/2 ranks for non-class skills, but from a straight 3.5 perspective, the Sorcerer should have Diplomacy, because not even spells can provide enough of a bonus to make up for that 1/2 level ranks, not when a bard or rogue can have level +3 ranks in Diplomacy.

[tergiver]

If not all sorcerers are natural diplomats, but some are, the ones that are can take a skill focus (diplomacy). That's a +3, which is the same as it being a class skill.

In my 3.x game, I house ruled that sorcerers could choose one charisma and one knowledge skill as a class skill. Between the skill changes and feat changes, I think sorcerers are good.

Now, I'm not as sure about the language about qualifying for prestige classes, but I'll take a look at the beta and see what happens.

[LazarX]

-Archangel- wrote:

As the title says. Sorcerers were liars and cheats in 3.5e with only Bluff as class skill, and now they are bullies as well?

So channeling magic through your blood does not allow you to actually talk to people like normal folks? You can be as Charismatic as hell, but if you lie and bully others will not like you (they will up to the moment you fail once in these attempts).

That's correct. As a sorcerer you are a FREAK. Your blood is so unnatural that magic literally oozes from it, giving you spells that others only obtain by years of training. It's very much like the Gift in Ars Magica. It unsettles people and the force of the sorcerer's charisma only heightens the effect when he tries to keep a low profile. You can be diplomatic but it's something that requires effort to master. Fortunately with training and practise you can turn part of your weakness (your Charisma) into an asset.

Come to think of it this might be a good class feature to add.

Unnatural Aura, your presence puts people off at ease and upsets normal animals. Horses and other normal steeds will not let you ride them. You face a -2 to Diplomacy rolls but gain a +2 to Intimidate.

To balance this out I'll propose the Gentle Gift feat.

Requirement: This feat can only be taken at your first Sorcerer level

Your aura unlike most of your kind, does not disturb common folk or normal animals. You loose your -2 penalty to Diplomacy, and your bonus to Intimidate and Diplomacy becomes a class skill for you.

[-Archangel-]

LazarX wrote:

-Archangel- wrote:

As the title says. Sorcerers were liars and cheats in 3.5e with only Bluff as class skill, and now they are bullies as well?

So channeling magic through your blood does not allow you to actually talk to people like normal folks? You can be as Charismatic as hell, but if you lie and bully others will not like you (they will up to the moment you fail once in these attempts).

That's correct. As a sorcerer you are a FREAK. Your blood is so unnatural that magic literally oozes from it, giving you spells that others only obtain by years of training. It's very much like the Gift in Ars Magica. It unsettles people and the force of the sorcerer's charisma only heightens the effect when he tries to keep a low profile. You can be diplomatic but it's something that requires effort to master. Fortunately with training and practise you can turn part of your weakness (your Charisma) into an asset.

Come to think of it this might be a good class feature to add.

Unnatural Aura, your presence puts people off at ease and upsets normal animals. Horses and other normal steeds will not let you ride them. You face a -2 to Diplomacy rolls but gain a +2 to Intimidate.

To balance this out I'll propose the Gentle Gift feat.

Requirement: This feat can only be taken at your first Sorcerer level

Your aura unlike most of your kind, does not disturb common folk or normal animals. You loose your -2 penalty to Diplomacy, and your bonus to Intimidate and Diplomacy becomes a class skill for you.

This is just your interpretation, nowhere it says Sorcerers are so different. To normal folks (non-magic user ones) Sorcerers=Wizards.

Wizards are the only ones ever mentioned as being unhappy around Sorcerers due to the jealousy of Sorcerers having natural magical skill while they needing 20+ years of book study.
I still see no flavor reason for Sorcerers not to have diplomacy as class skill.

[LazarX]

-Archangel- wrote:

This is just your interpretation, nowhere it says Sorcerers are so different. To normal folks (non-magic user ones) Sorcerers=Wizards.
Wizards are the only ones ever mentioned as being unhappy around Sorcerers due to the jealousy of Sorcerers having natural magical skill while they needing 20+ years of book study.
I still see no flavor reason for Sorcerers not to have diplomacy as class skill.

Never said it was anything but. Although in Blackmoor that's very close to what Sorcerers are like as the Wizard's Guild has a bounty out on Sorcerers has being possessed of "dangerously unstable magicks" so anyone with the gift of sorcery needs to keep thier head very low.

It's not also only mine but sorcerer's have been described as being "more unsettling that the average Wizard" in the Complete Arcane and the Complete Mage books.

It's also a way of giving some badly needed distinction between the sorcerer and wizard.

Essentially our viewpoints are different points of view and mine makes as much logical sense as yours and has a slight more backing of game mechanics.

[-Archangel-]

Well you can think so. But in FR and many books (novels) I have read Sorcerers are not viewed the way you describe. So I would not be so bold to state mechanics are supporting you view, especially when one poster here already quoted the description of Sorcerer in the PHB where it says Sorcerers can be diplomats of the party.

[LazarX]

-Archangel- wrote:

Well you can think so. But in FR and many books (novels) I have read Sorcerers are not viewed the way you describe. So I would not be so bold to state mechanics are supporting you view, especially when one poster here already quoted the description of Sorcerer in the PHB where it says Sorcerers can be diplomats of the party.

They most certainly can be, that passage however does not say that they can do so without effort. Actually there are regions of the Realms where Sorcerers are viewed with misgiving, Damara being one of them, because of the history of the Bloodstone Wars.