RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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As transscribed by your exhausted convention goer.
We had roughly 30 people here, not everyone was familiar with Pathfinder/Paizo products. They do now.
No regular posters in the group waiting for it to start, well except me.
Someone was working on a podcast (I don't remember your name, sorry.
Beginning: How we got here,
Eric introduced everyone (Jason and Josh) and discussed the pathfinder product, APs where they came from etc.
More subscribers than ever had before to the APs.
WotC 4x, paid close attention, message board feedback. ‘Ill omens in the wind.’
OGL allows us to publish the way we want, with no other company to tell us what to do.
Jason lead the rules consolidation/clean up systems. Alpha releases.
Gencon 8/13 roughly, Beta playtest edition. 408 pages, PDF will be free. Things that won’t be in the beta:
(Jason) no Prestige classes will come later (as free PDFs) intelligent Items.
May 2009 will finalize, send to printer, August 2009. Reverse compatible, ‘fix a lot of stuff’ to make it backwards compatible without harming stat blocks. Pathfinder products should still be able to be used with 3.x books.
Jason spoke:
Fix grapple. What can we fix w/o drastically altering the game.
Prestige classes being ‘so much better’ than core classes.
Alpha Release 1, 4 core classes, lots of feedback.
Skills, release 2, added in 4 more classes, rules, fixed skills.
Alpha 3, all the base classes, large chunk of rules to address.
Beta process, still board driven, but a little different. More discreet cycles to verify and tweak. Moving from piece to piece. Jason will be very active.
Erik: Goal is to be playing the game years from now. Eric has a printer proof of the Beta. Will be $25.
Erik guesses final verision will be 550-600 pages.
Pathfinder Society organized and starts in GenCon.
Pathfinder compatabiltiy license. Legal text. Free.
Questions:
Pathfinder RPG will be print and PDF, no that won’t be free. ;-)
Product Schedule: Still work in progress. Products should continue to be 99% open. (other 1% is product identity)
Hoping to be a hub for Open Material.
Harrow deck should be unchanged for Pathfinder.
Pathfinder Chronicles Hardback will have a prestige class, the Harrower.
Savage Species Pathfinder: Erik hired Veggie Boy. (already announced on the site, but was news to me.)
Average numbers are closer to a baseline in Alpha 3. Addressing high level saves, fighter low damage levels. Save or Die. High level play, major focus.
Dealing with power bump on first level, needs more.
Beta modules? Not going to print, might do a playtest adventure. Jason ‘might have something’ in the works.
Jason and concentration. Under the old system, wizards needed 3 skill points, but only had two. Possibly moving to a new strange directions.
OGL does not preclude character creation.
Skills, two factors X4 at the beginning. Had to know int and class at first level. Crossclass skill mechanic.
Where is feedback coming from? Most helpful, playtesting, least helpful ‘why don’t you include…’
Cover rules, coworkers pulled out their eyes.
Templates will be in there, and may be simplified.
Eric’s proud of the turning rules.
Dealing damage is fun. 
Awesome! Thanks for being out there MM!
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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It's been a while since I had to translate shorthand, but I think I got it. Sounds like a great seminar. Was the crowd reaction (especially those unfamiliar with Paizo or Pathfinder) positive after the event wrapped?
sorry, hasty and sleep deprived (or is that depraved)
Yes, everyone came up to look over the beta, and Jason talked about some of the clarifications and changes. I don't remember much, but I do remember he said Meteor Swarm traps aren't CR 9 anymore.
What does this mean?
"Dealing with power bump on first level, needs more."
Does that mean that first level character need more power than in Pathfinder Alpha? 'Cause I beg to differ.
Creative Director
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What does this mean?
"Dealing with power bump on first level, needs more."
Does that mean that first level character need more power than in Pathfinder Alpha? 'Cause I beg to differ.
I'm not sure what it means in the context of the seminar... but in my own opinion, "dealing with the power bump, needs more," should mean: Needs more work. As in, I think that it's currently at the ceiling of how powerful a 1st level character should be, and that it could probably come back down a little. But maybe not. That's what playtesting's for, after all!
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What does this mean?
"Dealing with power bump on first level, needs more."
Does that mean that first level character need more power than in Pathfinder Alpha? 'Cause I beg to differ.
I don't think they do. I did a playtest with a worg and 3 worg pup minions (normal wolves), and 5 first level PCs won. They had some luck, but the at will powers from the spellcasters, and increase in hitpoints saved the day.
{CMB made the trip attacks by the wolves soooo much easier to resolve, btw}
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'm not sure what it means in the context of the seminar... but in my own opinion, "dealing with the power bump, needs more," should mean: Needs more work. As in, I think that it's currently at the ceiling of how powerful a 1st level character should be, and that it could probably come back down a little. But maybe not. That's what playtesting's for, after all!What does this mean?
"Dealing with power bump on first level, needs more."
Does that mean that first level character need more power than in Pathfinder Alpha? 'Cause I beg to differ.
Hey, I was sleep deprived!
Seriously, dealing with the power bump needs more work is what was meant. I think.
Hey im a semi regular poster alot of the time lurker
(guy in the flash T Shirt)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Savage Species Pathfinder: Erik hired Veggie Boy. (already announced on the site, but was news to me.)Could I get some clarification here? Is "Savage Species Pathfinder" a refence to the upcoming Pathfinder monster collection? Is Sean K. Reynolds Veggie Boy?
The question was asked if there was going to be a 'Pathfinder Savage Species' The answer was that Savage Species is closed content, but with Sean on board it may be on the Horizion.
And yes Sean is Veggie boy, a throwback to usenet. (The nickname, though Sean is too...)
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The thing I liked the most about Savage Species is that it gave an alternative leveling system for monsters with Level Adjustment. Instead of not having class advancement, you could be a weaker version of your species instead of a weaker party member.
As for power bump.. I think the low levels are good, even mid level. I think the Fighter still suffers from not doing enough damage.. needs ABILITIES, not feats after level 10 IMHO, and the sorcerer atleast in Alpha build needs to lose the melee attacks.. he's the guy that makes the party rest a lot still because he can't get close to use those touch attacks without getting sliced and diced.
The question was asked if there was going to be a 'Pathfinder Savage Species' The answer was that Savage Species is closed content, but with Sean on board it may be on the Horizion.*SNIP*Savage Species Pathfinder: Erik hired Veggie Boy. (already announced on the site, but was news to me.)Could I get some clarification here? Is "Savage Species Pathfinder" a refence to the upcoming Pathfinder monster collection? Is Sean K. Reynolds Veggie Boy?
*Steeples fingers* Excellent.
PrCs should be better than core classes. That’s why they were called prestige classes. By taking levels in one (or more) a PC has an opportunity cost in that he has to take certain options to gain them.
Umm... no, prestige classes should not be 'better' than core classes, classes should improve by leveling up. Prestige classes are a way for characters to develop their abilities in specific ways or with a specific goal.
Templates will be in there, and may be simplified.
I do not want simplified templates. If people want simplification, there’s 4E.
There's a difference between good simplification and bad simplification (i.e. dumbing things down).
Take skills for example. Pathfinder's current skill system is a good simplification, while 4e's is a bad one.
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PrCs should be better than core classes. That’s why they were called prestige classes. By taking levels in one (or more) a PC has an opportunity cost in that he has to take certain options to gain them.Umm... no, prestige classes should not be 'better' than core classes, classes should improve by leveling up. Prestige classes are a way for characters to develop their abilities in specific ways or with a specific goal.
Honestly I do not think PrC should be "better" than a core class. In fact I, personally find most PrC to be weaker than the core classes.
However, a PrC should be a way to play the griffin rider, or the city guard or whatever represents a group with shared training. I think PrCs should be location driven. Something that fits in the world. Not just a class that gives out cool abilities.
Now that is just my opinion and I know others have different opinions... BUT YOU ARE ALL WRONG! no no no just teasing. :)
However, a PrC should be a way to play the griffin rider, or the city guard or whatever represents a group with shared training. I think PrCs should be location driven. Something that fits in the world. Not just a class that gives out cool abilities.
I agree with you 100%. PrCs were intended to be campaign specific classes that fit a specific role.
Less
Uber Fighter who is just a fighter with better stuff.
More
Chelaxian Temple Guardian --> with specific class features which make them ideally suited to being a temple guard.
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> Umm... no, prestige classes should not be 'better' than core classes, classes should improve by leveling up.
The first part of that sentence is a matter of opinion, as my statement was, as well. For the second part of that sentence, they do, and so do PrCs.
Actually, it isn't a matter of opinion. It's a matter of game design. Inherent in the concept of the class/level system is the idea that two characters of equal level should each be roughly as effective as the other, regardless of class. If a class is better, whether it be a base class or a prestige class, that balance is broken, and the game suffers for it. Almost every aspect of 3.5 design that is frequently complained about (CoDzilla, weak fighters/ubercasters, PrC dipping, spellcaster multiclassing) stems from a lack in this area somewhere; it is the central issue facing anyone who attempts to revamp 3.5 into a better game.
“Prestige classes should offer a number of special abilities, including at least some not available in some other way. Qualifying for a prestige class is difficult, and advancing levels in the new class is a sacrifice, so the rewards should be substantial… A prestige class should be at least as beneficial as a normal character class, and – if the requirements are high- it might even be more powerful.”
Monte is a 5-star designer, and I’ll take his opinion over many other designers. It seems that for many designers since then, those who designed “PrC to be weaker than the core classes” seem to have forgotten what Monte wrote. One can only hope that Paizo’s designers have the same view as Monte on this issue!
Your quote of Monte does not in the least support your assertion that PrCs should be 'Better' (I interpret this to mean more powerful but the word is a little slippery in context). Look at what he says again, "...should be at least as beneficial as a normal character class and -if the requirements are high- it might even be more powerful." So you say should be, Monte says "might be". Monte also stresses that the requirements should be high.
So indeed if a character makes some sacrifices earlier in the game taking some feats or perhaps multi classing in a sub-optimal way then the PrC should be more powerful to make up for this earlier sacrifice. The less the sacrifice the less reward there should be, ideally the net power should be at parity by the time the PrC is completed.
The wizard PrCs are particularly egregious about this issue, giving out PrCs with to wizards with little or no effort and paying off big. PrCs should be more powerful in specific situations but the Wizard 20 should be by far the most potent jack of all trades Wizard. Otherwise why even have 20 levels in the core classes?
Edit: Shisumo makes an even better point. Ultimately all the classes and PrCs should be fairly close to each other with regards to power at a given level.
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So indeed if a character makes some sacrifices earlier in the game taking some feats or perhaps multi classing in a sub-optimal way then the PrC should be more powerful to make up for this earlier sacrifice. The less the sacrifice the less reward there should be, ideally the net power should be at parity by the time the PrC is completed.
Also I think that PrCs with 'roleplay' prerequisites can seem to be more powerful, but that depends on if your DM enables them to be that way. needing to train for one year under a master of X... some DM's will allow you to do it in your background and count it, while others will require you to take all of your downtime training with your master, not allowing you to spend time making items and such...
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I meant to comment on the OP a few days ago.
What do these phrases mean, please?
WotC 4x, paid close attention, message board feedback. ‘Ill omens in the wind.’
Save or Die. High level play, major focus.
Prestige classes being ‘so much better’ than core classes.
With the coming of 4x, Paizo paid close attention to 4x's PR and hints, the reactions on their message board, other information. Divining the future in the entraels of one of Sebastian's ponies, etc.
They've been hitting as major focus Save or Dies, high level play, etc.
PrCs should be better than core classes. That’s why they were called prestige classes. By taking levels in one (or more) a PC has an opportunity cost in that he has to take certain options to gain them. And for God’s sake let’s not have 6-page PrCs, with four extra pages of mostly redundant fluff (two pages is enough, and please leave out the rest!), or PrCs which no PC would ever take. Ie. later on some designers seemed to create “Flavour classes”, not actual Prestige Classes.
See, here we're going to have to agree to disagree. Prestige classes should be more focused than core classes, it should be an exchange, giving up something for something else. Some (Duelest) give up too much, others (Archamge, Abjurant Cheesewhore) give up too little. If you have to reallly think, if a 20th level x is better than a 10x+10y, that's a balanced prestige class. PFRPG really has a chance to make this work. If there are 'generic' prestige classes (archmage, duelist) they can expand on how they fit in the world. Pathfindeize them for the game.
Templates will be in there, and may be simplified.
I do not want simplified templates. If people want simplification, there’s 4E.
Some templates are a bear. Literally in the case of a werebear.
Sorry if anyone feels the above is a flame. It's not, but that’s the way I feel.
I certaintly didn't see it as such. We're all passionate about this since, while at the end of the day it's Jason's game, with the open playtest, it is our game, more than 4x, or even 3x is.
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See, here we're going to have to agree to disagree. Prestige classes should be more focused than core classes, it should be an exchange, giving up something for something else. Some (Duelest) give up too much, others (Archamge, Abjurant Cheesewhore) give up too little. If you have to reallly think, if a 20th level x is better than a 10x+10y, that's a balanced prestige class
I agree wit base classes X and Y and prestige class PrC, X10 should be the same power as X5/PrC5 which should be the same as Y10 the same as y5/PrC5, and all of these should be more powerful than X5/Y5. (this figures that both class x and class y are eligible for the PrC at lvl 6)
I agree wit base classes X and Y and prestige class PrC, X10 should be the same power as X5/PrC5 which should be the same as Y10 the same as y5/PrC5, and all of these should be more powerful than X5/Y5. (this figures that both class x and class y are eligible for the PrC at lvl 6)
Well it would be nice if X10 == Y10 == X5/Y5 == X5/PrC5 but X5/Y5 seems to get the short end of the stick all the time. Although sometimes X3/Y2/PrC5 == X5.
Gah... I think my head esploded.
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Hey Eric, don't worry no flames detected :) This is what I call good conversation.
And Dennis... what teh heck did you just say?
For me, and remember this is just my opinion- and I am open to other opinions here-not saying mine is gospel- a PrC should fill a niche, a specific role that adds flavor and fun to the game.
It can be an NPC PrC meant to add unexpected challenges to the PCs, or fills a specific role in the game world. For example, I would have loved to seen the Grey Maidens with a PrC. The Red Mantis si perfect for a PrC.
At the same time a PrC for a player should likewise fill a role. Now that role should be exciting to begin with and have plenty of color. The color then decides the powers, which should reflect the color. If the role is a bigger than life one, then the powers should be bigger than life and the prereqs should be uber tough.
I don't mind PrCs that are powerful, as long as there is a reason they are powerful. The worst PrC, to me, is one simply designed to give uber power for the sake of uber power.
For example of a bad PrC, there was a dwarven fighter PrC (don't remember the name) that culminated in the ability to take a hammer and strike the ground thereby creating a little earthquake that did lots of damage to everyone in an area.
That is cool I suppose, except it was obviously designed to be a video game clone PrC. What role does that fill? What niche does that fill? I suppose one could work hard and come up with something, but it just lacks the right "feel." It felt like a video game clone.
The Grey Maidens would have been a perfect PrC that stressed teamwork. Powers and feats that if an ally has the same power or feat they can execute better attacks, stuff like that.
Here, this about sizes up my opinion of a PrC. Does it advance the story? If yes, then it is a good one, if No, then it should be tossed.