DMG PrCs are OGL. No one has said if they are moving them or not. If I were a betting man I would say yes but they will have minimal changes to comply with PfRPG BAB/HD and skills and feats reuqirements.
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DMG PrCs are OGL. No one has said if they are moving them or not. If I were a betting man I would say yes but they will have minimal changes to comply with PfRPG BAB/HD and skills and feats reuqirements.
I can't help thinking that it would be very nice to know whether casting PrCs are supposed to increase the CL of SLAs or add new SLAs, either one...
DMG PrCs are OGL. No one has said if they are moving them or not. If I were a betting man I would say yes but they will have minimal changes to comply with PfRPG BAB/HD and skills and feats reuqirements.I can't help thinking that it would be very nice to know whether casting PrCs are supposed to increase the CL of SLAs or add new SLAs, either one...
Well I'm hoping that a lot of the confusion around the spell casters SLAs and multi classing will be cleared up in the beta. It seems to me that it should get touched on when they update the PrCs but it's not clear if that's happening in the Beta or not.
An upgraded/updated Arcane trickster would be sweet. That Class is waaaay underpowered. Especially when you take in the mad Pre reqs for it.
An upgraded/updated Arcane trickster would be sweet. That Class is waaaay underpowered. Especially when you take in the mad Pre reqs for it.
It gives you full spellcasting (not even 9/10 or whatever), 2x the skill points of a wizard, and improves your sneak attack to boot. I always found it to be a pretty good deal. The issue is that if you multiclass a spellcaster, you ALWAYS end up weakening that character WRT a full (20-level) caster.
An upgraded/updated Arcane trickster would be sweet. That Class is waaaay underpowered. Especially when you take in the mad Pre reqs for it.
Underpowered? As a melee combatant, yes. However, Sneak Attack + Impromptu Sneak Attack + ranged touch damage spell = a lot of pain (especially if you allow the no save to reduce damage, no SR orb spells; an Empowered orb of acid/cold/electricity/fire from a rogue 3/wizard 5/arcane trickster 6, a 14th level character, with Practiced Spellcaster does 26d6 damage on a Sneak Attack!). Plus, it's just about the only 3.5 PrC that lets you advance in both spellcasting and the Disable Device, Open Lock, Search trifecta without requiring investment in cross-class skills.
The class basically requires rogue 3/wizard 5 to qualify, but gives full spellcasting progression AND increases Sneak Attack damage by +1d6 every even level. If you take all 10 levels of arcane trickster and 2 more levels of wizard or some other PrC with full spellcasting progression (or 8 and 4), you can still cast 9th level spells at 20th character level. Think of what an asset a gnome rogue 3/wizard (illusionist) 5/arcane trickster 8/shadowcraft mage 4 (full level progression) could be as a mid-/high-level party's primary arcane spellcaster and locks/traps specialist.
The one Prestige Class who changes I what to see is the Dragon Disciple as the base sorcerer now overlaps with the bloodline powers given. There are two ways to go as I see it:
1) Expand the class to cover all the new bloodlines, and make the class about even tapping into the bloodline powers more.
2) Change the class' purpose and make it a class for non-sorcerers who want to tap into the whole idea of bloodlines, but don't want to take levels in sorcerer.
And while they're at it, give the class normal PrC spell progression. Can anyone explain why its the only PrC that doesn't grant spells as though they took another level in their base class, or have its own new progression? The bonus spell thing is weak.
Option 1) would probably be the best route, using the OGL content from UA on bloodlines as a basis, but a "bloodline disciple" should have a spellcasting progression of +1 every other level if it keeps the same BAB and saves as the dragon disciple while granting transformative abilities.
An upgraded/updated Arcane trickster would be sweet. That Class is waaaay underpowered. Especially when you take in the mad Pre reqs for it.You've got to be kidding! Sneak attack damage with ray spells! ranged legerdermain, superior attack table and boku skill pts. well worth the sacrifice of a couple of measly caster levels. The Arcane trickster is perfect just as it is. although by Pathfinder rules, it'll get a HD upgrade. so that's bonus.
Have you looked at the pre reqs to get in the class? It's underpowered for the level at which you finally get to take it.
Ranged Legerdermain is very low powered especially now that there are spells like Greater mage hand.
Plus you're looking at it from an sneak attacking ray caster. If you want that take Spellwarp Sniper. I'm looking at it for it's Ranged Legerdermain abilitly which is what makes it really unique. And that is highly underpowered.
SLAs are a class feature. Caster PrC's as a rule, do not update ANY class feature other than caster level and spells per day. So as therules are written now, the answer is no. Which makes a hell of lot of sense given that the design pupose of the SLA's was to encourage people to stay with the class by giving them a bonus to do so.
Umm... yes. There is a little confusion in the wording of the SLAs which threw me off but I reread it and you are correct.
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SLAs are a class feature. Caster PrC's as a rule, do not update ANY class feature other than caster level and spells per day. So as therules are written now, the answer is no. Which makes a hell of lot of sense given that the design pupose of the SLA's was to encourage people to stay with the class by giving them a bonus to do so.Umm... yes. There is a little confusion in the wording of the SLAs which threw me off but I reread it and you are correct.
I am currently handling it as follows: the CL of cleric/sorcerer/wizard SLAs are genuinely caster-level-dependent. These abilities increase in power with anything that increases CL, including prestige classes, orange ioun stones, the Practiced Spellcaster feat, and all the rest. New abilities, however, are class abilities, and are not gained except by progressing through the class.
I am currently handling it as follows: the CL of cleric/sorcerer/wizard SLAs are genuinely caster-level-dependent. These abilities increase in power with anything that increases CL, including prestige classes, orange ioun stones, the Practiced Spellcaster feat, and all the rest. New abilities, however, are class abilities, and are not gained except by progressing through the class.
That's exactly what I'm doing as well (although the wording of the Alpha implies that the caster level of the SLAs is equal to your class level, not your total caster level).
I am currently handling it as follows: the CL of cleric/sorcerer/wizard SLAs are genuinely caster-level-dependent. These abilities increase in power with anything that increases CL, including prestige classes, orange ioun stones, the Practiced Spellcaster feat, and all the rest. New abilities, however, are class abilities, and are not gained except by progressing through the class.That's exactly what I'm doing as well (although the wording of the Alpha implies that the caster level of the SLAs is equal to your class level, not your total caster level).
I hope that this is cleared up one way or the other in the Beta or at the very least in the final version. I prefer the way you rule it but based on the PrC wording I don't think that's correct.
James Jacobs just confirmed that PrCs will NOT be in the Beta. So kind of a bummer but in general they are all playable as is. Hit Dice need to be updated... not sure what other obvious changes, prereqs also I assume. Best guess is prereqs skills are 3 ranks lower than previous. One curious thing is that feats come faster now so it might be possible to qualify sooner for a PrC.
- dennis
An upgraded/updated Arcane trickster would be sweet. That Class is waaaay underpowered. Especially when you take in the mad Pre reqs for it.You've got to be kidding! Sneak attack damage with ray spells! ranged legerdermain, superior attack table and boku skill pts. well worth the sacrifice of a couple of measly caster levels. The Arcane trickster is perfect just as it is. although by Pathfinder rules, it'll get a HD upgrade. so that's bonus.Have you looked at the pre reqs to get in the class? It's underpowered for the level at which you finally get to take it.
Ranged Legerdermain is very low powered especially now that there are spells like Greater mage hand.
Plus you're looking at it from an sneak attacking ray caster. If you want that take Spellwarp Sniper. I'm looking at it for it's Ranged Legerdermain abilitly which is what makes it really unique. And that is highly underpowered.
So, it's underpowered when compared to certain non-core options. That's a problem with several of the core PrCs vs. some of the non-core options/PrCs and is more a power-creep issue with the non-core material than the core being "weak." There are power-creep issues between the early splatbooks and the later ones, also (compare Argent Savant in Complete Arcane against Abjurant Champion in Complete Mage).
So, it's underpowered when compared to certain non-core options.
I think it's a little ironic that your example of how good Arcane Trickster can be used non-core options (orb of acid/fire/etc.) as well.
My take on Arcane Trickster in Pathfinder is that you're probably better off taking one level of rogue and 19 levels of wizard (since there's no such thing as cross-class skills any more.
I think it's a little ironic that your example of how good Arcane Trickster can be used non-core options (orb of acid/fire/etc.) as well.
So, it's underpowered when compared to certain non-core options.
The complaints about the core base and prestige classes being "weak" are usually based on comparisons to non-core versions. I was demonstrating that by using a couple non-core options (a spell and a feat), the core class is hardly as "weak" as it may be thought.
Even a 100% core rogue 3/wizard 5/arcane trickster 6 can do 23d6 damage with an Empowered scorching ray on an Impromptu Sneak Attack (three rays at 6d6 plus 5d6 Sneak Attack damage on the first one), although SR applies and it takes three ranged touch attacks (against a flat-footed opponent, at least, so chances of a miss are low).
My take on Arcane Trickster in Pathfinder is that you're probably better off taking one level of rogue and 19 levels of wizard (since there's no such thing as cross-class skills any more.
(From the 3.5 DMG pg. 177)
Requirements
To qualify to become an arcane trickster, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria.
Alignment: Any non-lawful.
Skills: Decipher Script 7 ranks, Disable Device 7 ranks, Escape Artist 7 ranks, Knowledge (Arcana) 4 ranks
Spells: Ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 3rd level or higher
Special: Sneak Attack +2d6 (emphasis mine)
I'd still go with a 4 Rouge/6 Sorcerer for a sorcerer build. You need the 4 levels of rougue to get the skills you need for the preqs. and and to tell the truth 4 caster levels are a good tradeoff for the eventual benefits and Practised spellcaster (which was not available for Living City at the time) takes care of the caster level deficit quite nicely.
Using no racial bonuses to ability scores or skills/feats (although under 3.5 core rules, you should be an elf, half-elf, halfling, or human to avoid multiclassing penalties):
Starting ability scores (3.5 25 point buy): 10 Str, 16 Dex, 12 Con, 14 Int, 10 Wis, 9 Cha
Starting Skills: Appraise 4, Climb 4, Decipher Script 4, Disable Device 4, Escape Artist 4, Hide 2, Listen 2, Move Silently 2, Open Lock 4, Search 4, Spot 2, Tumble 4
Starting Feat: Improved Initiative
Rogue 3 Skills/Feats: Appraise 6, Climb 6, Decipher Script 6, Disable Device 6, Escape Artist 6, Hide 3, Listen 3, Move Silently 3, Open Lock 6, Search 6, Spot 3, Tumble 6; Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot
Rogue 3/Wizard 1 Skills/Feats (+1 Int to 15): Appraise 6, Climb 6, Concentration 2, Decipher Script 6, Disable Device 6, Escape Artist 6, Hide 3, Knowledge (Arcana) 2, Listen 3, Move Silently 3, Open Lock 6, Search 6, Spot 3, Tumble 6; Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot, Scribe Scroll
Rogue 3/Wizard 2 Skills/Feats (15 Int): Appraise 6, Climb 6, Concentration 3, Decipher Script 6, Disable Device 7.0, Escape Artist 6, Hide 3, Knowledge (Arcana) 3, Listen 3, Move Silently 3, Open Lock 6, Search 6, Spot 3, Tumble 6; Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot, Scribe Scroll
Rogue 3/Wizard 3 Skills/Feats (15 Int): Appraise 6, Climb 6, Concentration 4, Decipher Script 6, Disable Device 7.0, Escape Artist 6, Hide 3, Knowledge (Arcana) 4, Listen 3, Move Silently 3, Open Lock 6, Search 6, Spellcraft 2, Spot 3, Tumble 6; Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Scribe
Rogue 3/Wizard 4 Skills/Feats (15 Int): Appraise 6, Climb 6, Concentration 4, Decipher Script 6, Disable Device 7.0, Escape Artist 7.0, Hide 3, Knowledge (Arcana) 4, Listen 3, Move Silently 3, Open Lock 6, Search 6, Spellcraft 4, Spot 3, Tumble 6; Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Scribe Scroll
Rogue 3/Wizard 5 Skills/Feats (+1 Int to 16): Appraise 6, Climb 6, Concentration 6, Decipher Script 7, Disable Device 7.0, Escape Artist 7.0, Hide 3, Knowledge (Arcana) 5, Listen 3, Move Silently 3, Open Lock 6, Search 6, Spellcraft 5, Spot 3, Tumble 6; Improved Initiative, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Scribe Scroll, +1 Item Creation or Metamagic Feat
Take arcane trickster and wizard levels (or another PrC with full spellcasting like archmage) from this point on. All ability increases go to Int. At 20th level, you get 19 Int (assuming no other increases) and gain access to 9th level spells (as if a wizard 17). I'll take having access to higher level spells instead of +1 BAB and six skill points.
Alignment: Any non-lawful.
Skills: Decipher Script 7 ranks, Disable Device 7 ranks, Escape Artist 7 ranks, Knowledge (Arcana) 4 ranks
Spells: Ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 3rd level or higher
Special: Sneak Attack +2d6 (emphasis mine)
Seems like arcane trickster is ok, but all of the PrCs prereqs will have to be given the once over to see if they need to be reworked based on the new skill system and faster feat progression.
Even a 100% core rogue 3/wizard 5/arcane trickster 6 can do 23d6 damage with an Empowered scorching ray on an Impromptu Sneak Attack (three rays at 6d6 plus 5d6 Sneak Attack damage on the first one), although SR applies and it takes three ranged touch attacks (against a flat-footed opponent, at least, so chances of a miss are low).
A rogue 1/wizard 11 can cast Flesh to Stone, Baleful Polymorph, Empowered Enervate, Disintegrate, Beast Shape IV (into a gorgon or androsphinx), etc.
My take on Arcane Trickster in Pathfinder is that you're probably better off taking one level of rogue and 19 levels of wizard (since there's no such thing as cross-class skills any more.(From the 3.5 DMG pg. 177)
Requirements
To qualify to become an arcane trickster, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria.
Alignment: Any non-lawful.
Skills: Decipher Script 7 ranks, Disable Device 7 ranks, Escape Artist 7 ranks, Knowledge (Arcana) 4 ranks
Spells: Ability to cast mage hand and at least one arcane spell of 3rd level or higher
Special: Sneak Attack +2d6 (emphasis mine)
Read my sentence again. I'm saying I'd rather play a Rogue 1/Wizard 19 than a Rogue 3/Wizard 7/Arcane Trickster 10. You miss out on some sneak attack and skill points, but having more spells and higher level spells (and spell-like abilities) is generally much better than some extra damage and skills. And you wouldn't have to suffer through those intermediate levels where you're either a below-average rogue or a below-average wizard.
I don't know if it's a good or bad thing that they're giving up more than they used to if they want a PrC...
A PrC should be equivalent to the core class in total power with different class features flavored for some role playing purpose. As such whatever class benefits they get should roughly equal one bonus feat per 5 levels plus whatever benefit the caster gets from familiar progression. Typically the benefits from PrCs seriously outweighed the little the wizard game up thus very few Wizard 20s out there. Now?? I don't think it's quite such an obvious choice which IMO is good.
One thing of note, PrCs lose the specialist spells but the arcane bonded item is a static class benefit, so it's just as good for a PrC wizard as it is for a Wizard 20.
A rogue 1/wizard 11 can cast Flesh to Stone, Baleful Polymorph, Empowered Enervate, Disintegrate, Beast Shape IV (into a gorgon or androsphinx), etc.
A Rogue 3/Wizard 5/Arcane Trickster 4 can cast baleful polymorph, beast shape III, elemental body II, Empowered vampiric touch, flesh to stone, etc. as if a Wizard 9.
I'm saying I'd rather play a Rogue 1/Wizard 19 than a Rogue 3/Wizard 7/Arcane Trickster 10. You miss out on some sneak attack and skill points, but having more spells and higher level spells (and spell-like abilities) is generally much better than some extra damage and skills. And you wouldn't have to suffer through those intermediate levels where you're either a below-average rogue or a below-average wizard.
Rogue 1/Wizard 19: BAB +9, Fort +6, Ref +8, Will +11, Skill Points 8+38+(20xInt mod), +1d6 Sneak Attack, Spells and Spell-like Abilities as Wizard 19.
Rogue 3/Wizard 7/Arcane Trickster 10: BAB +10, Fort +6, Ref +12, Will +13, Skill Points 24+14+40+(20xInt mod), +7d6 Sneak Attack, Evasion, Spells as a Wizard 17, Spell-like Abilities as a Wizard 7, Ranged Legerdemain 3x/day, Impromptu Sneak Attack 2x/day.
With the Pathfinder skill system, you can easily continue to put skill points in Disable Device and Search to avoid becoming a "below-average rogue." With a good (14+) or high (16+) Int, 2 skill points per level on rogue skills (or 3 to include Stealth as a human or a character with even higher Int) is not going to critically weaken the pursuit of arcane skills for either character.
As far as wizard spellcasting goes, the Arcane Trickster is one spell-level behind the Rogue 1/Wizard 19 until 20th character level. Instead of looking at them in intermediate levels as gimped wizards, think of them as rogues with strong spellcasting.
The biggest difference is with the Spell-like Abilities; you basically give up some of the school-specific Spell-like Abilities to gain a more damaging Sneak Attack, Ranged Legerdemain, and Impromptu Sneak Attack. This can be a hit to spell-slinging, but Sneak Attack has no limitations on how often you can use it, Ranged Legerdemain is very useful for dealing with traps, and Impromptu Sneak Attack can help with some damage-dealing spells (polar ray does 20d6 from the Rogue 1/Wizard 19 on a Sneak Attack (which must be set up), while the Rogue 3/Wizard 7/Arcane Trickster 10 does 24d6 on a Sneak Attack (which can simply be declared as the spell is cast twice per day)).
Which is "better?" It depends on how you want to play the character. The Rogue 1/Wizard 19 will have a few more spells and more powerful Spell-like Abilities. The Rogue 3/Wizard 7/Arcane Trickster will have a broader range of skills and abilities and can be more effective as a damage dealer.
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Id like to see Prestige Classes kept to a minimum. Realizing with the backwards compatability that they'll still be usable. I like the idea of Prestige Classes directly referring to something unique in a campaign setting.
Once I have the Pathfinder CS, I plan on going hrough all the PRC's and decide whats usable in my campaigns and not...and 'renaming them'...maybe even tweaking them a bit.
PRC's should be rarer and for the most part only for fluff...with a tiny bit of crunch to make them fun. PRC's should not be 'more than' the normal character progression....and really should be a way of 'creating the multiclasses'. ie combine two classes or sometimes even three...to make a PRC
for instance...
Fighter/Rogue (Swashbuckler)
Ranger/Rogue (Scout)
yes I know those are classes for 3.5....but it could just as easily have been a PRC.
my 2 cents
Dread