So from this post Mike Mearls reveals that the PHB II classes will start with these letters:
B
B
D
I
S
S
T
W
and further, only 3 or so are reprints of old classes.
I'm thinking something like
Barbarian (Primal Striker or Defender)
Bard (Arcane Leader)
Druid (Primal Hybrid?)
I
Shaman (Primal Leader)
S
T
W
Anyone want to guess on the rest? More than likely there are some Psi mixed in there, but if only three or so are reprints I'm not sure what they'd be called. Maybe T is Telepath? Is the other S Sorcerer?
I would guess there would be an illusionist or wizard/rogue kind of mix in there but since there naming convention is pretty wacky they could be named almost anything. I am going to guess Shadowdark Arcanesneakmeister.
I = Illusionist?
W = Warmage? or Witch (possibly a spin on the binder from ToM)?
S = Sorcerer? Probably not, but who knows...
Are the three power sources confirmed?
My initial info seems incorrect. I had it reversed ... only about 3 of those are NEW classes. The rest are old classes made anew, or at least old concepts given new conceptual flesh. So W is likely Wilder.
PHB II is Primal and Psi primarily, from I've heard.
Cheers!
Are the three power sources confirmed?
I want to say yes here, but I'd be hard pressed to find a dev quote backing one up. I'm pretty sure I've seen one saying so though ...
I think they also said it'll have a few classes that didn't make the PHB I as well though, Bard being a primary example.
Cheers! :)
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Mearls mentioned a couple interesting things in the talk:
(Paraphrased)
"If you missed a class that was in the 3.5 PHB, it's in the PHBII"
That would be: Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Monk, Sorcerer
"Three are completely and utterly new. The rest are either classes or old concepts revisited."
- old concepts revisited would give you the "illusionist" class
He then specifically talks about the Druid and how it's no longer Divine but something based upon Primal. Also then goes to the extrapolate how the other party roles (striker, etc.) are based around those different power sources.
He mentions a "killer" type that is like the rogue but a bit more deadly. He almost seems to be avoiding trying to say "shadowy". :-)
So let's assume that they're going to design the PHBII in at least a somewhat similar design as PHBI.
The most likely power sources (in my opinion) would be Primal, Shadow, Elemental, and Ki
Primal is obvious because it gives you the shapchanger rules and the Barbarian(Primal Defender) and Druid(Primal Controller) classes. That fills two Primal roles. That leaves 2 more available.
Shadow seems to be the most likely second choice as it would give you the enchantment and illusion spells that everyone is hankering for. You could get an illusionist (Shadow Controller) and a bard (Shadow Leader) out of that. Probably get that shadow striker he mentions above as a new class.
I believe that Ki is necessary to get the Monk, a Ki Striker. You could also then do the We Jen (Ki Controller) and/or Samurai(Ki Defender) classes as well.
Elemental could be used to build the Sorcerer (Elemental Controller) (Btw, I don't think there will be an Elemental Striker because then it overlaps the Warlock build.) I'm not sure what other past classes might come out of that. Perhaps one of the new ones is an Elemental Defender or Elemental Leader?
Perhaps someone could build a matrix of the power sources and roles (striker, etc) and we could fill in the gaps that way?
PHBI had 2 Leaders, 2 Defenders, 3 Strikers, and 1 Controller
Do you believe they will attempt to achieve balance by having:
2 Leaders, 2 Defenders, 1 Striker, and 3 Controllers ?
Since psi is being added to the SRD (reportedly), psi seems highly likely. Primal is certain (druids use primal, druids are certain). Are they going to put the swordmage in the PHB II (upsetting those who buy the FR setting at the dupe) or not (upsetting those not interested in 4e FR, but following the "everything is core" doctrine)?
A set of guesses:
B - Barbarian (Primal)
B - Bard (Arcane)
D - Druid (Primal)
I - Illusionist (Arcane)
S - Shaman (Primal)
S - Slayer (Psi)
T - Telepath (Psi)
W - Witch (Psi)
This article by Andy Collins suggests that one of the "S"s might be the Summoner (see the paragraph on the Wizard).
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I've noticed twice now in this thread that folks have said "Bard (Arcane Leader)"
Since they already did Arcane in the first book, do you think they'll use Arcane again in the second? Don't go with assumptions from previous versions.
What other power source could a Bard use? Psi? Shadow? Both would be interesting.
What about technology for a power source? Steampunk or gear-based or something. It would work with the 'T' mentioned methinks.
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(Paraphrased)
"If you missed a class that was in the 3.5 PHB, it's in the PHBII"That would be: Barbarian, Bard, Druid, Monk, Sorcerer
"Three are completely and utterly new. The rest are either classes or old concepts revisited."
- old concepts revisited would give you the "illusionist" class
Barbarian
BardDruid
Illusionist
Sorcerer
S(cout?) (-washbuckler?)
T(haumaturge?)
W
That works so far. Three completely new classes left.
We would have Primal/Elemental (not sure of it's the same source with an alternate name or not) and Shadow power sources, at least?
I know Ki is mentioned as a power source in the PHB, but as "M"/Monk seems to be missing, I'm not sure it'd be in PHB2.
The Psi guesses are good ones!
I've noticed twice now in this thread that folks have said "Bard (Arcane Leader)"
Since they already did Arcane in the first book, do you think they'll use Arcane again in the second? Don't go with assumptions from previous versions.
What other power source could a Bard use? Psi? Shadow? Both would be interesting.
I would agree with you Pete, but I've seen devs pretty much saying the Bard was an Arcane Leader. Now, that was some time ago, and things change, so maybe I'm wrong, but I'm betting not so ...
Cheers! :)
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Contributor
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I've noticed twice now in this thread that folks have said "Bard (Arcane Leader)"
Since they already did Arcane in the first book, do you think they'll use Arcane again in the second? Don't go with assumptions from previous versions.
What other power source could a Bard use? Psi? Shadow? Both would be interesting.
Bards have previously been strongly tied to druids both in earlier game editions and in the real world, so primal is a possibility. Although I expect it will be arcane leader.
I don't think Illusionist is one anymore, as they just released a whole bunch of wizard spells today on DDI to make an "Illusionist" type wizard.
Seems kinda overkill to have that, plus a class devoted entirely to Illusions. So what else could "I" stand for?
Barbarian, Druid, and Sorcerer I believe are gimmes, and the Shadow power source does seem like a big contender.
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B - Bard (Psi Leader)
B - Barbarian (Primal Striker)
D - Druid (Primal Controller)
I - Illusionist (Psi Defender)
S - Shaman (Primal Leader)
S - Shifter (Primal Defender)
T - Telepath (Psi Controller)
W - Wilder (Psi Striker)
I think it will only be 2 new power sources. And I think we'll see 2 of each role. Remember, we are likely to see multiple Paragon Paths for each class as well as an epic destiny or two. Thrown in some new feats, magic items, skills, etc. and you have yourself a book. I doubt the PHB II or any others for that matter will be as big as PHB I.
The Psi power source will attack will for the most part and it seems to fit the bard that they attack will as well. It will likely be a mix of psychic ranged attacks and shadow martial. Thats how I get Illusionist as Psi defenders: They create shadow "defenders" and fill a "summoning" nich as well.
Primal will be a mix of "elemental" ranged and "fury/rage" martial. Druids from 3E will likely have their hybrid nature split into 3 classes in 4E: Shaman, Shifter, and Druid. Shaman as the leader, Druids as the controller , and shifters as the shapechanging defender. With the way multiclassing works, a Shifter/druid will be very close to how people built 3E druids anyway...the healing part of druid has always been fairly weak.
my 2 cp
Shifters are a race, they won't make a class for them too. That "S" is pretty much confirmed to be the Sorcerer, and the other one is Shaman.
B - Bard (Arcane Leader; still convinced this guy is Arcane)
B - Barbarian (Primal Defender)
D - Druid (Primal Hybrid?; maybe Striker/Defender based on wildshape?)
S - Shaman (Primal Leader)
S - Sorcerer (Primal Controller)
T - Telepath (Psi Controller)
I - Illusionist (?)
W - Wilder (?)
Hrm. Looking over the thread, here are my revised guesses. Shaman was mentioned in the Warlord preview as a Leader class, and seems to fit strongly with the "Primal" theme ... it is surely one of the new classes mentioned.
I still feel Bards are Arcane Leaders. Druids are Primal Hybrids, focusing on wildshaping. Probably Striker/Defender based on their animal form, as a guess. Barbarian either Primal Defender or Striker (although my money is on Defender).
Sorcerer as a Primal Controller, barely controlling his wild primal energy? We're moving into stronger conjecture territory. We've been told a lot of enchantment/charm stuff was kept from Wizards to be given to Psions later, which would make a Telepath as a Psi Controller a pretty good choice.
Which leaves the I and W. Illusionist springs to mind for I, but I had anticipated that class being Shadow sourced. It could be Psi of course, but then I also anticipated it to be Controller roled, which the Telepath already has a handle on. W could be Wilder, and fit in as a Psi Striker very nicely though.
Just chewing over some thoughts. :)
I still don't think Illusionist is the "I" after seeing the Illusion class acts article for the Wizard. Telepath is a no-brainer IMO. It will get made.
The W and the I are the ones I'm trying to figure out. I'm not convinced we'll see a Wilder or Illusionist here as these are old classes. These are probably something brand new.
I still don't think Illusionist is the "I" after seeing the Illusion class acts article for the Wizard. Telepath is a no-brainer IMO. It will get made.
The W and the I are the ones I'm trying to figure out. I'm not convinced we'll see a Wilder or Illusionist here as these are old classes. These are probably something brand new.
We were told to expect three or so new classes. Shaman is almost surely going to be one, leaving the I and W as pretty good guesses for the other two (as all the other letters have pretty solid guesses already).
They COULD be Illusionist/Wilder, but so different from their previous incarnation that they count as a "new" class in the eyes of the devs. Of course, you could possibly make the same argument for the Sorcerer in that case ...
If I had to choose between the two I'd say Wilder is more likely than Illusionist, but that's just my guess.
Cheers! :)
Swordmage?
Someone at ENWorld has provided a very nice summary of what we know so far re: upcoming 4E classes. Check it out here.
Cheers! :)
Why wouldn't W be Wild Mage (Elemental)?
I = Initiator?
Hmm interesting. Hadn't thought of that term yet.
Hmm interesting. Hadn't thought of that term yet.I = Initiator?
Wasnt Incanatrix (I beleive it was an abjuration specialist) a popular prestige class from FR? so wouldnt that be an Arcane Defender ?
Wasnt Incanatrix (I beleive it was an abjuration specialist) a popular prestige class from FR? so wouldnt that be an Arcane Defender ?
Ah could be. Note that the Swordmage, due for release in one of the FR books later this year is already slated as an Arcane Defender. Of course nothing has been said to indicate we won't see two classes convering the same Source/Role convergance.
I like the out of the box thinking though guys. :)
Why wouldn't W be Wild Mage (Elemental)?
After checking Races and Classes they said they thought about the Sorceror taking on some of the wild mage stuff and being elemental. So Sorceror/Wild Mage (Elemental Controller) ?
Wasnt Incanatrix (I beleive it was an abjuration specialist) a popular prestige class from FR? so wouldnt that be an Arcane Defender ?
Ah could be. Note that the Swordmage, due for release in one of the FR books later this year is already slated as an Arcane Defender. Of course nothing has been said to indicate we won't see two classes convering the same Source/Role convergance.
I like the out of the box thinking though guys. :)
Wouldn't that be a good reason to give a core (as in non FR) class to also fulfill that role?
Why wouldn't W be Wild Mage (Elemental)?After checking Races and Classes they said they thought about the Sorceror taking on some of the wild mage stuff and being elemental. So Sorceror/Wild Mage (Elemental Controller) ?
Possibly. Sorcerer (er or or? I never remember ...) is my guess for one of the S's. I pegged him as Primal, but Elemental could certainly fit (and maybe better).
I was thinking the various Sources will have the majority of their classes in the same book, so PHB I is most of the Martial, Arcane and Divine. Under that theory, PHB II should be mostly Primal and Psionic, but I suppose that might be a notion I need to rethink ...
Why wouldn't W be Wild Mage (Elemental)?After checking Races and Classes they said they thought about the Sorceror taking on some of the wild mage stuff and being elemental. So Sorceror/Wild Mage (Elemental Controller) ?Possibly. Sorcerer (er or or? I never remember ...) is my guess for one of the S's. I pegged him as Primal, but Elemental could certainly fit (and maybe better).
I was thinking the various Sources will have the majority of their classes in the same book, so PHB I is most of the Martial, Arcane and Divine. Under that theory, PHB II should be mostly Primal and Psionic, but I suppose that might be a notion I need to rethink ...
Invairably the classes will come into more light as the defined power sources do. I think Primal, Elemental, and Shadow would be a could combination because it would fit nicely into the mold of the cosmology they have setup.
I still don't think Illusionist is the "I" after seeing the Illusion class acts article for the Wizard.
Well if they include Dragon magazine in I's that they have touched upon, I suppose it could be an implacable or an incarnate. That's just guesswork though.
Well, the preview of the PHB II cover on Wizard's site says "Arcane, Divine, and Primal Heroes".
So, maybe . . .
Barbarian (Primal)
Bard (Arcane)
Druid (Primal)
I
Shaman (Primal)
Sorcerer (Arcane)
T
W
I, T, and W would then be the never-visited-before concepts, and I would guess probably include two Divine classes (one the "cleric that's a bit more on the spellcaster-y side" Mearls has mentioned) and one Primal.
As was suggested to me, I could be Inquisitor, a Divine Striker, while T could be hiding the Theurge, a Divine Controller. What say you guys?
(I'm still at a loss for W. What the heck could W be? Warden, Primal Defender?)
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Well, the preview of the PHB II cover on Wizard's site says "Arcane, Divine, and Primal Heroes".
So, maybe . . .
Barbarian (Primal)
Bard (Arcane)
Druid (Primal)
I
Shaman (Primal)
Sorcerer (Arcane)
T
WI, T, and W would then be the never-visited-before concepts, and I would guess probably include two Divine classes (one the "cleric that's a bit more on the spellcaster-y side" Mearls has mentioned) and one Primal.
More possibilities:
Illusionist would be Arcane, Theurge (or Theurgist) could be an option for Divine (this spellcaster-y divine caster?). Thaumaturge is another option for the name.
Well, the preview of the PHB II cover on Wizard's site says "Arcane, Divine, and Primal Heroes".
So, maybe . . .
Barbarian (Primal), Bard (Arcane), Druid (Primal), Shaman (Primal), Sorcerer (Arcane), I, T, WI, T, and W would then be the never-visited-before concepts, and I would guess probably include two Divine classes (one the "cleric that's a bit more on the spellcaster-y side" Mearls has mentioned) and one Primal.
Seems to me like Sorcerers lost their uniqueness and have been folded into Wizards. If you figure that the Ranger ought to have been "Martial Controller" instead of "Martial Striker", then the PHBII is just filling in the blank roles for the Arcane & Divine sources and adding a full complement of Nature/Primal sourced-classes.
After a fair bit of poking and prodding, here are my guesses:
Bard = Arcane Leader
Swordmage = Arcane Defender (as Duskblade-PHB2, although according to this Converting your Character article, this will/may be a Realms-specific class)
Templar = Divine Striker (maybe derived from existing divine/templar prestige classes?)
Initiate = Divine Controller (couldn't find anything pre-existing like this, but I'd wager it's a good name for the class Mearls is hinting at above)
Druid = Primal Leader
Barbarian = Primal Defender
(Spirit) Shaman = Primal Controller
Warshaper = Primal Striker (not 100% sure about the name, too many "war-foos", but the character concept of this prestige class fr. CWar fits well)
Personally, I'll miss the character concept of the Beguiler, but I'm increasingly curious to see what they might do with the divine classes.
Interesting call for Warshaper. That's a nice fit. I had been pegging the W as Psionic, before we learned there was no Psionics in the PHB II, so I was at something of a loss for it now.
I think the I and T are going to be a Divine Striker/Controller, although which is which is likely impossible to guess.
I think Sorceror will make a return (they were talked about in the preview books). They sounded like they'll be more about Wild Magic and Untamed forces now though.
Sigh, March seems so far off.
I'm really curious what they are going to do with the sorcerer. With the rest of the classes I can envision a shtick that is more or less based off of what they have done in the past but not the sorcerer. It really has no existance outside of 3.5 and its whole design space seems to have been squeezed out of existence by the warlock and the wizard.
...unless they are planning on doing something essentially based on bloodlines?
Elementalist type powers, I think.
Elementalist type powers, I think.
I'm not totally convinced they'll be Primal, but I'd give it some odds. Maybe they tap into the forces of Nature to release some lightning/wildfire/whatever onto their foes, based on some Primal connection with the land?
(With my luck at prognosticating, they'll be an Arcane Controller at this point, with a list of Wizard spells copied over :P)
I'm really curious what they are going to do with the sorcerer. With the rest of the classes I can envision a shtick that is more or less based off of what they have done in the past but not the sorcerer. It really has no existance outside of 3.5 and its whole design space seems to have been squeezed out of existence by the warlock and the wizard.
...unless they are planning on doing something essentially based on bloodlines?
If you have Races and Classes handy give it a read. It tells you prettym uch what they plan on doing with them at that point and time
Warshaper = Primal Striker (not 100% sure about the name, too many "war-foos",If they are tired of the word 'war' they could just call it the Wildshaper.
Or they could break with 30 years of 'almost, not quite' and make an official Witch class.
Well what would a witch do in your mind?
Well what would a witch do in your mind?
Well, tossing away the fact that IRL the term "warlock" refers to an oathbreaking witch, I can actually see a fantasy gaming witch being very much a primal version of the arcane warlock. I'd imagine the differences would come from the use of primal implements and alchemical mixtures.