Subject says it all. Aside from the reduced prereqs and the trigger requirements, how is this different from whirlwind attack, which does the job better, while using an entirely different feat tree? I'm not sure I see the point of this change or the change to cleave.
Subject says it all. Aside from the reduced prereqs and the trigger requirements, how is this different from whirlwind attack, which does the job better, while using an entirely different feat tree? I'm not sure I see the point of this change or the change to cleave.
Because Cleave was just a bad feat before, since it only activated when an oppenent dropped *and* there was another opponent within reach. G. Cleave in many ways is indeed somewhat akin to whirlwind attack, except as you said, it's available to those with different feats and more importantly, a different set of ability scores. IMO, Whirlwind is still better, since the opponents only have to be adjacent to *you*, not to each other.
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since the opponents only have to be adjacent to *you*, not to each other.
This is GOING to be the only difference (if they are kept the same in BETA),
But the difference between the two (as it relates to Alpha rules) is that GC was a COMBAT FEAT - thus it was the ONLY such feat you could use that round.
Whirlwind - while needing more pre-reqs - was NOT a combat feat and thus you could do whirlwind while using a different Combat feat - such as Dodge, Careful Targeting, Exact Targeting, Caught-off-Guard
now that Beta is removing the mechanics of "combat feats" in regards them only being able to have one used per round - it will even further close the gap between the mechanics of GC and Whirlwind - leaving only the fact that GC can only affect those that are adjacent to each other as the only discernable difference.
Robert
With Great Cleave, you can combine it with True Strike, and get the +20 bonus on all opponents you attack. Whirlwind Attack requires a separate attack roll (losing the True Strike bonus) on each subsequent target.
I have a couple people in my home game who play with a single level of Sorcerer, or with a Ring of Spell Storing for such occasions.
Round One - Cast True Strike
Round Two - Max Power Attack and charge into the center of a group and begin your Great Cleave routine.
Now Great Cleave is a Full Attack action, so cannot easily be combined with a charge. It will still be subject to such monkeying, though.
-Scott
I don't think everyone seems to know what whirlwind attack really does.
"Whirlwind Attack [General]
Prerequisites
Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +4.
Benefit
When you use the full attack action, you can give up your regular attacks and instead make one melee attack at your full base attack bonus against each opponent within reach.
When you use the Whirlwind Attack feat, you also forfeit any bonus or extra attacks granted by other feats, spells, or abilities.
Special
A fighter may select Whirlwind Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Widen Spell [Metamagic]
Benefit
You can alter a burst, emanation, line, or spread shaped spell to increase its area. Any numeric measurements of the spell’s area increase by 100%.A widened spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell’s actual level.
Spells that do not have an area of one of these four sorts are not affected by this feat."
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"Great Cleave (Combat)
You can strike a number of adjacent foes with a single
swing.
Prerequisites: Str 13, Cleave, Power Attack, base attack
bonus +4.
Benefit: As a full-round action, make a single melee
attack against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal
damage normally and can make an additional attack
(at the same bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to
the previous foe and within reach. If you hit, you can
continue to make attacks against foes adjacent to the
previous foe, so long as they are within your reach. You
cannot attack an individual foe more than once in a
round with this feat."
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The two feats are nearly identical but I highlighted the points that make great cleave weaker than whirlwind attack. The feat was already a weak one because you hardly ever get a 3rd target within reach, little alone drop a 2nd target with only 1 hit. If you can't see it this way then sorry but here.
I will put this in point form.
1. They don't only need to be within reach but adjacent to the foe you just hit.
2. You need to continue to hit that target as well to continue the attacks while in whirlwind attack it doesn't matter you just make attack at all of them even if you miss one.
3. The 3rd+ foe also need to be standing RIGHT next to each other.
With great cleave like this, I would go dodge, mobility, whirlwind attack, and then get power attack and be much better fighter.
I agree that there shouldn't be two feats for basically the same effect. The old cleave was fine the way it was.
Well, except maybe for the issue about cleave and AoO.
Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, base attack bonus +4.
that seems like a pretty stiff requirement to get to though,assuming you have the basic stats high enough. 5 feats for one trick. pretty good trick though it is... As also pointed out combat expertise and dodge are both pretty mediocre feats.
I agree that there shouldn't be two feats for basically the same effect. The old cleave was fine the way it was.
Well, except maybe for the issue about cleave and AoO.
Agreed. Cleave was an awesome feat.
Great cleave, not so much.
I think the easiest fix for bag-of-rats cheese is just to say you can't cleave to the same character more than once per round.