Should Fighters have better Reflex Saves?

[Saurstalk]

I'm not sure. Rangers have both good reflex and fortitude saves, while fighters have only good fortitude saves.

It would seem logical to me that a melee combatant would learn to become fast on his feet to avoid the punishment that he could potentially sustain.

That said, maybe not. Maybe the fighter's strength is not in evading an attack, but being able to take it.

One problem is that fighters can be varied and need not all follow the same path.

[Seldriss]

I give to fighters good saves in Fortitude and Reflexes.
Seems logical to me.

[Laithoron]

This is where talent trees for classes are sometimes useful. In this instance, one path would be light armor and a good reflex save whereas the other path would be up to heavy armor plus tower shield and a poor reflex save.

[TriOmegaZero]

I also wonder sometimes if there should be a third save progression between good and poor. Something starting at +1 and ending as +9. But that's a whole new kettle of worms.

[joela]

Saurstalk wrote:

I'm not sure. Rangers have both good reflex and fortitude saves, while fighters have only good fortitude saves.

It would seem logical to me that a melee combatant would learn to become fast on his feet to avoid the punishment that he could potentially sustain.

That said, maybe not. Maybe the fighter's strength is not in evading an attack, but being able to take it.

One problem is that fighters can be varied and need not all follow the same path.

How'd it go in your campaign with this houserule?

[Saurstalk]

joela wrote:

Saurstalk wrote:

I'm not sure. Rangers have both good reflex and fortitude saves, while fighters have only good fortitude saves.

It would seem logical to me that a melee combatant would learn to become fast on his feet to avoid the punishment that he could potentially sustain.

That said, maybe not. Maybe the fighter's strength is not in evading an attack, but being able to take it.

One problem is that fighters can be varied and need not all follow the same path.

How'd it go in your campaign with this houserule?

Actually Joela, I think your question is for Seldriss. I haven't implemented it . . . but am considering doing so.

[DracoDruid]

That's why I am for using medium saves.

Fighters could use them for REF, rogues maybe for WIL, ...

[TarkisFlux]

Most of the fighters I see are tin cans with low speed and crap for dex boost to armor. These things do not scream 'good reflex save' to me. I'm sure they'd appreciate it, but it doesn't seem particularly fitting. The few lightly armored fighters I see, like the swashbucklers or the fighter/rogues, already get it anyway.

Also, good reflex saves on top of Bravery? That's a bit much for me to swallow.

[Rezdave]

TarkisFlux wrote:

it doesn't seem particularly fitting. The few lightly armored fighters I see, like the swashbucklers or the fighter/rogues, already get it anyway.

This is precisely on target. Light/Dex-based Fighters are trained specialists, not the norm. They are Prestige or Multi-Classes, and gain their Reflex bump from that, not the core Fighter class, which is about taking and dishing out damage.

Remember, also, that the large HD and high HP of a Fighter reflects their ability to avoid getting hit. Reflex saves are entirely a different ball of wax, and involves almost unconscious hair-trigger responses to other types of situations. That's Rogue territory, not Fighter.

If you really try you can come up with a rationale for every class to have every skill, ability, bonus, etc. The key to designing Core classes is to keep them distinct and focused while also flexible to a variety of concepts, with Multi- and Prestige-Classing offering yet more conceptual flexibility.

FWIW,

Rez

[Sir Hexen Ineptus]

TriOmegaZero wrote:

I also wonder sometimes if there should be a third save progression between good and poor. Something starting at +1 and ending as +9. But that's a whole new kettle of worms.

Yes your not the only one. Check this out

[Kirth Gersen]

My problem is that I can easily make a case that fighters, accustomed to the lighting-fast shiftings of combat, should have good Reflex saves. And that their grueling drills and training should give them a measure of mental toughness, and hence good Will saves. But then the other side of me says to leave well enough alone, because from a game standpoint I'm not sure they should really get all of those.

Intermediate saves for Ref, Will would be an idea, but retroactively fitting them into the PfRPG might be too much to implement by the time the Beta comes in. So instead, maybe Lightning Reflexes and Iron Will could be fighter bonus feats?