Two-weapon fighting

[Samuli]

Lately I've been thinking a lot about two-weapon fighting. The numerous threads about rangers and monks have been an inspiration; monks because Flurry of Blows is essentially two-weapon fighting.

I've read the v3.5 Main D&D FAQ concerning both Flurry of Blows and Two-Weapon Fighting, and Guy Fullerton's comprehensive Analysis of Attacking with Two Weapons. I recommend those two sources, and nothing else, for everyone interested. There is a lot of confusion around two-weapon fighting but those two get it right.

Finally, I thought what Pathfinder has done to two-weapon fighting. The new additions (so far) are Double Slice, Two-Weapon Rend, and Weapon Swap. How do these change two-weapon fighting?

I'll see what I can do - without using a Rogue. I chose a two-weapon fighting monk to illustrate some of my points. This might be a sub-optimal choice, or break some rules. Please let me know how to improve the concept.

Human Monk
Str 10, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 10 (just to keep things simple)

Level 4
Two-Weapon Fighting (human bonus)
Double Slice (lvl 1)
Weapon Finesse (lvl 3)
Dex +1 (lvl 4)

Full attack using unarmed strikes as both primary and off-hand weapons, taking circumstance bonus to his primary hand's light weapon from Double Slice, and using a Ki point to get an extra attack:

+3/+3/+3/+1 (BAB +2, Dex +3, Flurry -2, TWF -2, DS +2).

Not that bad for a 4th level character with 15 being the highest stat to begin with.

Now all we have to do is to give him somehow more damage per hit to make him effective. Flaming frost shock weapons is one way, unfortunately not that good for high-level monks. Rogue levels would be another one but I'm trying to achieve something without resorting to the most combat effective class there is.

By the way, when he reaches level 9 and takes Improved Two-Weapon Fighting he's at +9/+9/+9/+2/+2 (BAB +6/+1, Dex +3, Flurry -0, TWF -2, DS +2). Notice how his off-hand attacks are lagging far behind his primary hand.

[Argamae]

Samuli wrote:

Lately I've been thinking a lot about two-weapon fighting. The numerous threads about rangers and monks have been an inspiration; monks because Flurry of Blows is essentially two-weapon fighting.

I'll see what I can do - without using a Rogue. I chose a two-weapon fighting monk to illustrate some of my points.

Okay, but... well, WHAT exactly are your points? Or did I miss something?

[Samuli]

Argamae wrote:

Okay, but... well, WHAT exactly are your points? Or did I miss something?

Whoopsie, I accidentally left them out.

Guy discusses in his analysis that TWF should be used with as much bonus damage as possible. Namely, sneak attack or flaming swords. I was wondering whether the new two-weapon feats made things any better for characters without bonus damage.

Ranger threads fear that ranger will become a level dip class if TWF is too powerful, or if the restrictions are removed. I was trying to see whether Double Slice is necessary for a well-built TWF concept. Rangers don't get DS for free, and it has the same Dex prereq as TWF.

Monk threads wonder what the monk should do in combat. I was looking if TWF would be the answer. In the past rogues were the ones who excelled with iterative attacks. They still do that but can other classes narrow the gap - with the help of the new feats.

Some comments about the new feats while I'm at it. The new Double Slice (changed in Alpha 2) is great. Unfortunately (or by design) it can't be combined with Weapon Swap as they both are combat feats. I'm looking forward to Beta to see how they tackle this issue. And finally, no comments from Two-Weapon Rend yet. I'll take the above concept further later today.

Most probably I'll also show how rogues still outperform everyone with TWF. And I might suggest some guidelines how that could be prevented.

[Freesword]

Samuli wrote:

Argamae wrote:

Okay, but... well, WHAT exactly are your points? Or did I miss something?

Whoopsie, I accidentally left them out.

Guy discusses in his analysis that TWF should be used with as much bonus damage as possible. Namely, sneak attack or flaming swords. I was wondering whether the new two-weapon feats made things any better for characters without bonus damage.

Ranger threads fear that ranger will become a level dip class if TWF is too powerful, or if the restrictions are removed. I was trying to see whether Double Slice is necessary for a well-built TWF concept. Rangers don't get DS for free, and it has the same Dex prereq as TWF.

Rangers CAN select Double Slice as one of their combat style feats. (see Alpha3 p36 bottom)

I can sum up why TWF should be used with as much damage bonus as possible without even looking at the article you linked. Each attack (if successful) is a damage multiplier. The more attacks (hits) the higher the multiplier.

This also answers why rogues outperform everyone with TWF. The multiplier effect on their sneak attack dice.

Most here are probably aware of this, and some of us have actually seen it demonstrated in play.

As for the ranger becoming a dip class if the armor restrictions on their combat style feats are removed, that is unlikely. It is barely worth it. More likely the result would be rangers taking a fighter dip for armor proficiencies to TWF with a low dex and use heavy armor. The dex requirement is a major reason why people who want to play TWF fighters don't.

[Samuli]

Freesword wrote:

Rangers CAN select Double Slice as one of their combat style feats. (see Alpha3 p36 bottom)

True. I was mostly referring to ranger dips when mentioning Double Slice. With a two level dip you cannot get both TWF and DS. Your later comment on fighter dips is an excellent argument why the armor restrictions should stay for rangers.

Freesword wrote:

This also answers why rogues outperform everyone with TWF. The multiplier effect on their sneak attack dice.

One of the things I'd like to check is if there's a way to come even close to rogues in TWF. Unfortunately, using the new feats is not an answer as rogues can take the feats as well. I ran the math just to be on the safe side.

It all comes down to Sneak Attack being usable to each attack. I fail to see the design principle in that.

[Freesword]

Samuli wrote:

Freesword wrote:

This also answers why rogues outperform everyone with TWF. The multiplier effect on their sneak attack dice.

One of the things I'd like to check is if there's a way to come even close to rogues in TWF. Unfortunately, using the new feats is not an answer as rogues can take the feats as well. I ran the math just to be on the safe side.

It all comes down to Sneak Attack being usable to each attack. I fail to see the design principle in that.

Direct damage spells are the only thing in the system that currently comes close to matching a TWF rogue's damage with sneak attack, and even then they are mitigated by saves and the damage being spread over multiple targets.

The design principle that has sneak attack usable to each attack is that it can only be applied under specific conditions (target denied Dexterity or flanked) and is a class feature of a class with a medium or 3/4 attack progression. There is also a factor of the concept of the rogue sneaking up on an unsuspecting target and quickly dispatching them.

I personally believe the multiplier effect of TWF was overlooked during design as based on the rogues 3 attacks from base attack it is not overwhelming. It only becomes so around the 4-5th attack, especially if these are made at the highest attack bonus. The full TWF feat tree would result in 6 attacks for the rogue, with haste adding a 7th. (note: there is a presumption of full rogue progression for maximum sneak attack dice.) The full impact of this is not always evident until it has been demonstrated in game, and many who have never seen this used to it's fullest potential tend to be skeptical of how powerful and devastating it truly is.

The rogue compounds this situation with the fact that all attacks are generally made on a single target that qualifies for the additional damage. The result being very high damage per round.

There have been more than one discussion regarding this with suggestions for reducing the the TWF rogue's sneak attack potential. They are generally met with stiff resistance and often are too severe, seriously impacting the rogue's combat effectiveness. I personally favor the suggestion presented in this thread as it only affects the later attacks in a round and is a progressive reduction in damage which increases with the number of attacks. I've actually done the math comparing several proposals and this is the most drops the high end while keeping the damage output comparable to other melee builds.

Without reducing a rogue's WTF sneak attack multiplier effect, no other TWF build will ever be able to catch up in damage without adding a similar amount of bonus damage not available to the rogue.