Wind Walk Suggestions

[Lich-Loved]

"d20srd.org” wrote:

Level: Clr 6, Drd 7
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Targets: You and one touched creature per three levels
Duration: 1 hour/level (D); see text
Saving Throw: No and Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: No and Yes (harmless)

You alter the substance of your body to a cloudlike vapor (as the gaseous form spell) and move through the air, possibly at great speed. You can take other creatures with you, each of which acts independently.
Normally, a wind walker flies at a speed of 10 feet with perfect maneuverability. If desired by the subject, a magical wind wafts a wind walker along at up to 600 feet per round (60 mph) with poor maneuverability. Wind walkers are not invisible but rather appear misty and translucent. If fully clothed in white, they are 80% likely to be mistaken for clouds, fog, vapors, or the like.
A wind walker can regain its physical form as desired and later resume the cloud form. Each change to and from vaporous form takes 5 rounds, which counts toward the duration of the spell (as does any time spent in physical form). As noted above, you can dismiss the spell, and you can even dismiss it for individual wind walkers and not others.
For the last minute of the spell’s duration, a wind walker in cloud form automatically descends 60 feet per round (for a total of 600 feet), though it may descend faster if it wishes. This descent serves as a warning that the spell is about to end.

I was hoping for a few changes to this spell with PFRPG. As written in the SRD, this spell is significantly overpowered for its level. For example, the addition of the word “Mass” to a spell increases the spell level by 4 (e.g. mass cure light wounds is 5th level, mass bull strength is 6th). When the “mass” modifier is applied to the spell, the spell is otherwise the same as the base spell except it affects one creature per level.

If we examine wind walk and compare it to a proposed “mass gaseous form spell” we note the following:

Wind walk as written should be significantly higher-level spell. Gaseous form is a third level spell which means a “mass gaseous form” should be a 7th level spell. Granted, a “mass gaseous form” spell would allow one creature per level while wind walk allows one creature per three levels, but since a cleric doesn't get the spell to 11th level, the point is rather moot; a party of four can be affected when the spell is first made available. This issue alone should push wind walk to 7th level, but there are more reasons this is true.

Wind walk allows changing back and forth from gaseous form. This is allowed independently for each affected creature. Gaseous form does not allow this. This is a tremendously powerful feature of the spell, allowing it to be cast at the beginning of the day and used as a mass fly spell whenever needed not to mention its use as a near perfect stealth spell (especially with invisibility) and the ability to bypass all barriers except those that are airtight.

Wind walk has a duration of 1 hour per level rather than the 2min/level allowed by gaseous form

Wind walk allows the travel via a “magical wind” when moving faster than 10ft per round, ensuring local wind conditions do not affect the traveler as they would under the (slow moving) gaseous form spell.

Wind walk allows each affected creature to set its own speed from 10ft to 600ft per round. The attendant loss in maneuverability is not a limitation at all. With so much movement and an indestructible nature, a person in wind walk can afford to bounce off corridor walls until he or she heads in the desired direction.

As it is written, this spell should be about 9th level. When this spell is used in conjunction with invisibility, find the path, arcane eye and similar magics, it makes many published adventures relatively moot. I would like to see the spell kept but toned down considerably.

The suggestions below are a few ways to keep the spell in the game. Only one or at most two of these suggestions are needed to better balance the spell. When reading these suggestions, assume that all other aspects of the spell remain the same except that which is explicitly changed in each suggestion.

Raise the spell level to 9th. The spell is less powerful than a miracle spell used to move the party but does not have the attendant costs.

Allow only a 600ft per round/poor mode. This allows the spell to act as an excellent travel spell, especially to locations unknown to the party (where teleport would otherwise be used) without turning it into a game breaker.

Do not allow recipients to separate and force all recipients to be in the same state as the caster (e.g. either everyone is gaseous or everyone isn't). Change the travel speed to be either 1ft/round with perfect maneuverability or 600ft/round with no chance to be blown about by ambient winds in either form. Each creature affected by the spell can determine their speed.

Keep the spell as-is, raise it's level to 9th and add a "wind form" spell at 7th level that is in all respects a "mass gaseous form spell". The spell would appear on both the cleric and wizard lists at 7th level.

What are your thoughts on these suggestions?

[Lich-Loved]

Going to bump this once. Maybe it got missed over the weekend.

[JoelF847]

Not ALL mass spells have the +4 level bump. Off the top of my head, Mass Heal only has a +3 level bump, but I'm pretty sure there's at least one other exception. (Maybe mass invisibility?)

Not saying that wind walk doesn't need revision, but just pointing out that MASS isn't a perfect template to base an argument around. Also, some of the spells that do use +4 probably shouldn't (I think that mass bull's strength, etc. should only use +3, which still would make them a less than optimal spell choice by that level of the game.)

[Selgard]

Lich-Loved wrote:

"d20srd.org” wrote:

A wind walker can regain its physical form as desired and later resume the cloud form. Each change to and from vaporous form takes 5 rounds, which counts toward the duration of the spell (as does any time spent in physical form).

Compared to other spells of this level, given this particular limitation, Windwalk is just fine as it is.

6th level spells.
Wizards are teleporting, other clerics are Word of Recalling, folks are flying, levitating and whatnot nearly at will (either with spells or items that duplicate them).

Yes, Wildwalk is relatively powerful but not so much as you seem to make it out to be.

With the 5 round "shift timer" so to speak, it is Clearly a travel only spell. I know I would hate to fly up to something and try to shift back. Before 5 rounds were up, I would be one dead son of a biscuit eater.

It is a well written over-land flight type spell that allows the players to zip over land scape rather than teleporting across it. I really don't see the big problem here.

In a world where folks are Teleporting around and Disintegrating matter with the wiggle of a fingertip, I'm just not all that sure the ability to fly at 1/hour level is all that unbalanced for 6th level spells. And at 9th? I can't imagine anyone using a 9th level slot on it.

At level 3-4 I would agree, probably too powerful. at level 8 or 9 it's sub-par but at 6 it's just another option.
Do we Recall? Do we Teleport? or do we Windwalk?

Have you encountered some great game breaking ability with it, in practice? Something that they can't Teleport around/through/to/away from but that Windwalk is a sudden savior?

[hogarth]

LichLoved wrote:

* Do not allow recipients to separate and force all recipients to be in the same state as the caster (e.g. either everyone is gaseous or everyone isn't). Change the travel speed to be either 1ft/round with perfect maneuverability or 600ft/round with no chance to be blown about by ambient winds in either form. Each creature affected by the spell can determine their speed.

I could get behind this revision (although I'd change 1 ft/round to be 5 ft/round). Of course, I don't think there's a real problem with it as-is.

[Lich-Loved]

JoelF847 wrote:

Not ALL mass spells have the +4 level bump. Off the top of my head, Mass Heal only has a +3 level bump, but I'm pretty sure there's at least one other exception. (Maybe mass invisibility?)

Not saying that wind walk doesn't need revision, but just pointing out that MASS isn't a perfect template to base an argument around. Also, some of the spells that do use +4 probably shouldn't (I think that mass bull's strength, etc. should only use +3, which still would make them a less than optimal spell choice by that level of the game.)

Mass Invisibility is 7th level (+5 modifier). Your point is a fair one, but if we allowed a “mass gaseous form” at 6th level (the most generous of the mass spells is +3 to base spell level) wind walk is clearly far superior to the proposed spell. This is, in effect, my point.

Selgard wrote:

Compared to other spells of this level, given this particular limitation, Windwalk is just fine as it is.

6th level spells.
Wizards are teleporting, other clerics are Word of Recalling, folks are flying, levitating and whatnot nearly at will (either with spells or items that duplicate them).

Yes, Wildwalk is relatively powerful but not so much as you seem to make it out to be.

With the 5 round "shift timer" so to speak, it is Clearly a travel only spell. I know I would hate to fly up to something and try to shift back. Before 5 rounds were up, I would be one dead son of a biscuit eater.

It is a well written over-land flight type spell that allows the players to zip over land scape rather than teleporting across it. I really don't see the big problem here.

In a world where folks are Teleporting around and Disintegrating matter with the wiggle of a fingertip, I'm just not all that sure the ability to fly at 1/hour level is all that unbalanced for 6th level spells. And at 9th? I can't imagine anyone using a 9th level slot on it.

At level 3-4 I would agree, probably too powerful. at level 8 or 9 it's sub-par but at 6 it's just another option.
Do we Recall? Do we Teleport? or do we Windwalk?

Have you encountered some great game breaking ability with it, in practice? Something that they can't Teleport around/through/to/away from but that Windwalk is a sudden savior?

I think the problem arises when you couple wind walk with fly and invisibility. Now the party can travel through a dungeon/castle/wherever silently, passing through all (non air-tight) barriers, avoiding damage from mundane sources, mechanical traps, and guards until they reach an area of interest. They can then reform invisibly (hence the 5 round delay is moot) and attack. The fly spell allows them to reform wherever they wish (up near the ceiling for example) before attacking and allows perfect maneuverability while gaseous at a 60ft fly speed. It has the same effect as the scry/teleport trick but allows you to venture to any location even if you have not seen it yet and does not require a scrying attempt on the target.

Pull out a Pathfinder module or Dungeon adventure and imagine your heroes are outside the BBG's stronghold and they cast invisibility and wind walk and then whisk into the stronghold undetected. How much of the module will they bypass?

I think the spell was intended to be a movement spell that competes with teleport, but the spell's many options provide for the spell to be used in all kinds of ways other than just for overland travel.

[Selgard]

Sorry about my whole previous post being in quote blocks. I usually skip the quote bit- and am still rather noob at its implementation.

So a group wants to spend a 6th level slot, one 3rd level slot per character, and one 2nd level spell per character, in order to pass most of the encounters (and thus, most of the loot and xp) of an instance, in order to skip "to the end"?

Ok. I'm fine with that.

Should we now go blow through all spell combinations and try to nerf one component of them?

Again- this spell is fine. Using a bunch of other spells with it does not mean the spell is broken.

-S

[Lich-Loved]

Selgard wrote:

Again- this spell is fine. Using a bunch of other spells with it does not mean the spell is broken.

This is an odd statement. What level would you place on a "mass gaseous form" spell?

[Selgard]

I have no idea? I'm not usually in the practice of creating new spells.

I simply said that with the limitations placed on it, for the level that it exists at, Windwalk isn't a problem.

Invisibility (or greater invisibility) break alot of things. That doesn't mean the underlying spell is broken.

Maybe they need to change the way Invisibility works.

Windwalk, as it is written, is a moderate-to-high level spell that lets the players travel quickly.

Scry+Teleport lets them accomplish the same goal, often with less trouble.

I'm honestly not arguing just for the sake of argument- I just don't understand why you think this spell is overpowered, much less worthy of a 9th level spell slot.

[Lich-Loved]

Selgard wrote:

I'm honestly not arguing just for the sake of argument- I just don't understand why you think this spell is overpowered, much less worthy of a 9th level spell slot.

I don't think you are trying to be difficult at all. I think that at first blush the spell seems reasonable and it hasn't been until recently that I have begun to believe otherwise.

In terms of power:

It is better than overland flight in that it allows for travel that is 8 times faster and has the benefit of of a "mass" effect for the cost of one spell level (Overland flight is 5th level) while simultaneously it...

...is better than a gaseous form spell in that it provides for a duration that is 30 times better than gaseous form, allows at-will transformations to and from gaseous form, provides movement that is 60 times better than gaseous form and provides a "mass" effect while simultaneously...

...is better than fly in that it provides a duration that is 60 times longer and a speed that is 10 times faster while providing a "mass" effect.

When comparing the spell to word of recall (also 6th level for a cleric), wind walk:

affects the same number of people though it may affect possibly more or less people than word of recall

allows for unknown destinations

is disadvantageous in that the travel is not instantaneous

It seems to me that wind walk is balanced against word of recall (the number affected is more or less a wash depending or circumstances, the ability to travel instantaneously is offset by the ability to choose your destination) but wind walk provides all of the other advantages described above in addition to working about as well as word of recall. It is for this reason I think the spell is not set at the proper level and the level should be raised (perhaps not to 9th, but to 8th would not be bad) or otherwise reduced in power.I can see wind walk being a better spell than any one of these spells for it's increased level, but the fact that it provides all of these benefits (even without the strange things you can do with it when using spells like invisibility) indicates that the spell's level is not properly set.

[LazarX]

Another easier possiblity is to rework the spell text to state that the spell can be cast and the effect only functions outdoors to restrict it to it's intended use... overland travel. The second you go indoors or underground, the effect ends.

[Selgard]

I think you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree on the spell.

You are right in that it certainly Is powerful: but being better than gaseous form and fly and overland fly just means that it shouldn't be a 2nd or 3rd or 5th level spell.

This is a 6th level spell we're talking about here. And it's just travel. The spell lets you travel quickly, quietly, and relatively invisibly (using the term generically, rather than as the spell effect).

And that's not even getting into how Paizo will tinker with it, given that it has a Fly speed.. and thus, the Fly skill.. tho honestly I haven't read it since i'm fervently (yet i fear, uselessly) hoping they'll remove it from the game..

This spell just isn't that broken. No more so than scry with invis/teleport combo's you brought up, or anything else the PC's can do at this level. Let them have their ability to turn into a gas and wriggle around abit. The ability to do more than you could before, is what gaining in levels is all about.

-S

[Alediran]

Not only that, but skipping the entire dungeon and treasure means that they'll need to pull that trick many times during many days to earn the same level of experience that the whole dungeon would give. Not even mentioning that just killing the boss is not the way to end an adventure. There are thousand ways that the characters still fail at acomplishing the mission even when they kill the "boss" (videogame mentallity causes this perception that just killing the boss lets you "win"), the monsters in the dungeon could be set free by a spell tied to the boss life and it sets those creatures to destroy the village, the very thing the characters were trying to prevent.

If you still plan dungeons for characters at that level range like they where low-levels then you aren't doing your job right.

[tergiver]

The problem I see with wind walk is it's either too good (when all goes to plan, used the way Lich-loved suggested) or too bad (when plans go awry and you get attacked). The party in my game was attacked once while wind walking, and only the gaseous form DR prevented party deaths.

Remember: no items, no spells, lousy AC, and only DR/10 magic and an immunity to critical hits to protect you. Surprise rounds are bad. One guardian with true seeing or a good spot score and the walkers are hosed. If they split up to flee combat, good luck finding each other again at 60' miles per hour all wearing white.

There are also unresolved questions - is dismissing an instant change back, or still subject to to the five rounds? If you start to change, can you try to reverse it or are you stuck moving 10' for those remaining rounds? (My answer: still subject, and yes, but it takes just as long to reverse.)

If the spell needs to change, what I'd like to see is a 6th level spell that stays close to the intent of overland movement without the (perceived or real) potential for abuse.

How about this: the caster summons a magical cloud that can support one creature per three caster levels. The cloud is 10x10, 20x20, or 40x40 (caster's choice, can vary during use). The cloud can fly at 10' or 600' with perfect maneuverability, as the caster wishes. The cloud is AC 10 with DR 10/magic and 50 hit points, and if disrupted physically or by a dispel magic or gust of wind, the walkers are automatically affected by feather fall. Maybe the cloud reforms 10 minutes later, maybe it doesn't, that's a balance tweak.