I will start off acknowledging that I prefer the fixed DC for acrobatics. I kept an open mind about the changes, and ran it thru a few scenarios. I set up fights between fighters of the same level, with one fighter being designed as a nimble fighter, in light armor of a chain shirt, with a high dex of 16.
At 1st level:
Acrobatics check:+1 rank, +3 dex, -2 chain shirt: Total modifier is +2
Vs DC: 15 + Bab (+1): Total DC is 16
Result: needs a 14 to succeed, a 35% chance of success, in an unobstructed space.
If you add in any kind of terrain, the chances go down drastically
lightly obstructed: DC is 18, need a 16, 25% chance of success
Severly obstructed: DC is 21, need a 19, 10% chance of success
Old system: DC 15, with a result of: needs a 13 to succeed, a 40% chance
Terrain modifiers: light: DC 17: 30% chance of success
Sever: DC 20: 15% chance of success
At 3rd level the armor check penalty goes down by one.
Acrobatics check:+3 rank, +3 dex, -1 chain shirt: Total modifier is +5
Vs DC: 15 + bab (+3): Total DC is 18
Result: need a 13 to succeed, a 40% chance of success, in an unobstructed space.
Lightly obstructed: DC 20, 30% chance
Severely obstructed: DC 23, 15% chance
Old system: DC 15, 55% chance of success
Lightly obstructed: 45% chance
Severely obstructed: 30% chance
At 7th level the armor check penalty goes down again
Acrobatics check:+7 rank, +3 dex, -0 chain shirt: Total modifier is +10
Vs DC: 15 + bab (+7): Total DC is 22
Result: need a 12 to succeed, a 45% chance of success, in an unobstructed space.
Lightly obstructed: DC 14, 35% chance
Severely obstructed: DC 17, 20% chance
Old system: DC 15, 80% chance of success
Lightly obstructed: 70% chance
Severely obstructed: 55% chance
For trying to move thru an enemy’s space, decrease the chance of success by 25%.
In my experience, most fights happen in lightly or severely obstructed terrain. An example of that is in RoRL, Skinshaw Murders. Foxglove Manor, the fights happen in caverns (severely obstructed), Foxglove Townhouse has been trashed (lightly to severely obstructed), Seven’s Sawmill filled with dangerous machinery (severely obstructed), Shadow Clock, Scarecrow’s Lair is filled with rubble (severely obstructed), the Bells have chains, ropes and gears (severely obstructed), the Angel has a filthy conical rooftop (lightly obstructed and severely inclined).
Please note that even a class that has acrobatics as a class skill, such as the rogue, again wearing a chain shirt, only has 15% better chance of success at 1st level, a 10% better chance of success at 3rd level, and a 5% better chance of success at 7th level.
Also, please note that there needs to be a skill check for each opponent that could get an attack of opportunity against you. This, in my opinion, drastically reduces the chance that a character will be able to use the skill to move thru/around opponents, without attacks of opportunity being used against them.
Conclusion: The changes have increased the difficulty too much for the skill to be worthwhile for any class. The nimble fighter never really get’s close to an even chance of succeeding, and it only get’s much worse as terrain penalties are added in.
Expected argument:
I expect that some will indicate that they can take skill focus: acrobatics and the acrobatic feat, for an extra +5 for their skill checks, an 25% chance of success.
Counter argument: In that case, the character would be better off taking dodge and mobility, as they use up just as many feats, and not only do they give a 100% chance, but you can run with mobility (120 feet of movement, compared to 25 feat of movement with acrobatics). By taking mobility, you might as well take as heavy armor as possible, as there is no penalty to movement checks for doing so (yes, I know, besides a lower movement rate). To me, this takes away from the whole concept of a lightly armored, nimble fighter.
Recommendation:
Return the DC to the old system. A character needs to be fairly high level to have a 100% chance of success to move past opponents (level 11 for a 16 dex rogue in chain shirt, and level 12 for a 16 dex fighter in chain shirt), and to move thru opponents it is even higher (21 for a 16 dex rogue in chain shirt, and level 22 for a 16 dex fighter) and that is only in clear, unobstructed, dry, non-slippery spaces. Once you add in terrain modifiers, they need to be even higher.
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Seconded.
Relevant threads:
Changes to skills in Alpha 3 [p.52-65]
Acrobatics (ex-Tumble ) - new AoO definition?
Please check these threads for the main point of disagreement, which could be summarized as "High BAB entails higher chance to get an attack out of turn" vs "High BAB does not entail a higher chance to get an attack out of turn."
A feat tree suggestion to give options to those who want to smack down tumblers (and more) without readying an action to do so: [New feat tree] Combat Reflexes.
I was wondering what if he just simply changed the DC to 10 base instead of 15? Would that make thing a bit more better for your calculations?
I was wondering what if he just simply changed the DC to 10 base instead of 15? Would that make thing a bit more better for your calculations?
That would increase chances of success by 25%. So, still not good, as an example: at 7th level, in a cavern (severely obstucted), the full chance of success would be 45%.
Seconded.
Relevant threads:
Changes to skills in Alpha 3 [p.52-65]
Acrobatics (ex-Tumble ) - new AoO definition?Please check these threads for the main point of disagreement, which could be summarized as "High BAB entails higher chance to get an attack out of turn" vs "High BAB does not entail a higher chance to get an attack out of turn."
A feat tree suggestion to give options to those who want to smack down tumblers (and more) without readying an action to do so: [New feat tree] Combat Reflexes.
Sorry Locworks, I obviously failed my search fu check this week.
Edit: I just read those threads. One thing that I did notice, is that no one seems to be applying difficulty modifiers to the DCs during their calculations (terrain, armor, etc..). I don't think that Jason did either, from his comment. Those modifiers significantly change the chance of success for acrobatics.
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Sorry Locworks, I obviously failed my search fu check this week.
No worries. :-) You did well to run the simulation in a new thread.
I just wanted to provide the background info to avoid rehashing the "'cause I hit hard" vs. "'cause I hit smart" argument in this thread.Edit: I just read those threads. One thing that I did notice, is that no one seems to be applying difficulty modifiers to the DCs during their calculations (terrain, armor, etc..). I don't think that Jason did either, from his comment. Those modifiers significantly change the chance of success for acrobatics.
That's true. The presentation of the standard disadvantageous conditions could be improved in rule books and adventures.
A small stablock would go a long way:
Ice cavern
Surface: very slippery, -x to Acrobatics
Light conditions: bla-bla, -x to Acrobatics, Perception
Temperature: 1d6 cold damage/hour
etc.
I'd see this in the DMG section as a series of sample rooms and a table with the various factors. Great for adventure-building and it's much more workable after the skill condensation.
I was kinda hoping that all those that were in favor of 15+BAB would respond, either to disprove the points raised or to say that they had some merit.
Oh well.