Now read the board description carefully
D&D 3rd Edition and Older
These forums are for talking about the rules and house rules of 3.x Edition D&D, 2nd Edition D&D, 1st Edition D&D, OD&D and any other pre-4E version of D&D.So the new 3E Pathfinder movement already seems to be "historic" and "outfashioned" prior to it's release. That's what remains after their 'intentions' vanish from the front page.
I really can't take these guys serious anymore.
lackeys..
I doubt they're trying to deliberately deprecate 3.5E, Pathfinder, etc. I suspect they anticipate that the amount of discussion relating to 4E will be greater-than-or-equal-to the amount of discussion on all other versions put together, so they're trying to separate their boards into two large-ish boards (rather than one large board and a bunch of little boards).
All just my opinion, of course.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Now read the board description carefully
D&D 3rd Edition and Older
These forums are for talking about the rules and house rules of 3.x Edition D&D, 2nd Edition D&D, 1st Edition D&D, OD&D and any other pre-4E version of D&D.So the new 3E Pathfinder movement already seems to be "historic" and "outfashioned" prior to it's release. That's what remains after their 'intentions' vanish from the front page.
I really can't take these guys serious anymore.
lackeys..
I doubt they're trying to deliberately deprecate 3.5E, Pathfinder, etc. I suspect they anticipate that the amount of discussion relating to 4E will be greater-than-or-equal-to the amount of discussion on all other versions put together, so they're trying to separate their boards into two large-ish boards (rather than one large board and a bunch of little boards).
All just my opinion, of course.
In this case, their intentions aren't the issue, it's that currently, there's nowhere on ENWorld that seems to be for specific games other than D&D - it's either 4E, or 3.5 and older editions. That doesn't include other OGL games, or even non D20 games entirely. I used to check their boards daily, but now it doesn't look like it's worth my time to find the threads that may or may not be there related to D20 modern, Pathfinder, and other games that I wanted to follow.
Question - Is ENWorld affiliated in some way shape or form with WotC?
I don't know about official...
I know that change is confusing and threatening, but come on, guys: PRPG moved UP in visibility, not down:
"General RPG Rules Discussion
[WAS CALLED "Pathfinder/OGlL/D20 GAMES"] Discuss the rules of Pathfinder, d20 Modern and any other game except D&D, such as Arcana Evolved, Mutants & Masterminds, Star Wars Saga, and the like."
It's the second forum in their list. 4th edition rules are the fourth.
Go to : http://www.enworld.org/forumdisplay.php?f=9
Well, I read about the change and at first it sounded positive.
Then I tried to actually find the Pathfinder threads...it took me about five to ten minutes of actively looking and trying to guess where they had been relegated. If anything, I think this change places 4th edition front and center on their site and makes everything else sound like "Ye Olde Games of Yesteryear."
I think it is a shame, because ENWorld used to be a pretty good place for rules discussions. But I guess it is their website and they can do what they want. If it stays this way there will be little reason for me to return there, however.
Well, I read about the change and at first it sounded positive.
Then I tried to actually find the Pathfinder threads...it took me about five to ten minutes of actively looking and trying to guess where they had been relegated. If anything, I think this change places 4th edition front and center on their site and makes everything else sound like "Ye Olde Games of Yesteryear."
Presumably their opinion is that 4E will genuinely become the dominant topic of discussion and 3.0/3.5 (and offshoots thereof) will join AD&D and 2nd edition as "Ye Olde Games of Yesteryear." They could be wrong; who knows?
2 of the first 5 posts and 3 of the first 9 are Pathfinder. Not seeing the hard here.
The main difference is that the title is not called out "Pathfinder" anymore; its up with all the non-D&D RPGs now at the top. Shorter than Pathfinder/Modern/AU/AE/IH/SW/etc/etc I guess. :)
WotC buys adds @ ENWorld, but has no financial stake in it AFIK. Its a community website with some commercial products (the reverse of Paizo, which is a business and *then* a community site).
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Now read the board description carefullyD&D 3rd Edition and Older
These forums are for talking about the rules and house rules of 3.x Edition D&D, 2nd Edition D&D, 1st Edition D&D, OD&D and any other pre-4E version of D&D.So the new 3E Pathfinder movement already seems to be "historic" and "outfashioned" prior to it's release. That's what remains after their 'intentions' vanish from the front page.
I really can't take these guys serious anymore.lackeys..
How about taking your own advice? Read the board description carefully. Pathfinder isn't D&D. If it was, there'd be a big "Dungeons & Dragons" logo on the front of my Alpha 3 pdf. Surprise, there isn't!
Pathfinder is in the second forum for the top. The Pathfinder/OGL/3.5 variant games are now MORE visible and better positioned than 4e.
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*shakes head*
Enworld is a Dungeons & Dragons brand website. It has always been this way. Yes they featured D20 stuff, but that's because good D20 news was available more often and in larger quantity then stuff from Wizards. The fact that they're continuing with 4E over.. Pathfinder, just shows their dedication and focus on the brand.
I love Dungeons & Dragons. I love Pathfinder. I will continue to play 3E until my friends don't want to and I will play 3P if I can get them to buy the final rules in 2009... which I doubt they will.
That said, I've played in multiple 4E demos and I played through H1. I will likely play 4E in full later. I'm positive that just like AD&D, there will be more people playing the new version then the older one. (Though I will not play in the Spell Plagued era of the Realms!)
The amount of Enworld bashing and the down right ignorance of the focus of that site I see on this forum (and others) sickens me.
Presumably their opinion is that 4E will genuinely become the dominant topic of discussion
Of course it is. They worked hard for it.
WotC buys adds @ ENWorld, but has no financial stake in it AFIK.
Nothing official maybe, but I've been suspecting for some time now that they have influence there.
By the way, since I haven't been on ENWorld since I was banned for not sucking up to wizards, can anyone tell me whether they had a "we're so broke, please give us money" fundraiser recently? Would be funny if their financial problems had disappeared overnight...
By the way, since I haven't been on ENWorld since I was banned for not sucking up to wizards, can anyone tell me whether they had a "we're so broke, please give us money" fundraiser recently? Would be funny if their financial problems had disappeared overnight...
Can't comment on the reasons for you being banned, but WotC only bought ads this month; EN didn't get in on the last batch of ads from them so didn't have WotC adds for a few months. AFIK, they survived on ad revenue from their other ads, the RPG store, and community supporter accounts. Last fundraiser was May of last year.
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Either way I'm going to hold off over there for a bit until the obvious massive payoff, err, I mean, uh, advertising space (yeah, that's the ticket) is less flashy and annoying as it is now. WotC has bought up all the banners with the delightful tagline "Play 4e NOW" flashing in my face as if it actually expects me to say "gee, OK."
-DM Jeff
Presumably their opinion is that 4E will genuinely become the dominant topic of discussion and 3.0/3.5 (and offshoots thereof) will join AD&D and 2nd edition as "Ye Olde Games of Yesteryear." They could be wrong; who knows?
Of course, the way they're running things it'll prove true; no one interested in Pathfinder will be visiting the site.
ENWorld tries to make the forum reasonably cordial, if not entirely friendly, to ALL publishers who play by the posting rules. I've never seen any undue influence or favoritism for WotC.
ENWorld tries to make the forum reasonably cordial, if not entirely friendly, to ALL publishers who play by the posting rules. I've never seen any undue influence or favoritism for WotC.
I have. I criticised some of the decisions in 4e, they turned the meaning right around and accused me of insulting all the 4e players, and banned me - with some condescending comments. Haven't seen any 3e-bashers banned.
I have. I criticised some of the decisions in 4e, they turned the meaning right around and accused me of insulting all the 4e players, and banned me - with some condescending comments. Haven't seen any 3e-bashers banned.ENWorld tries to make the forum reasonably cordial, if not entirely friendly, to ALL publishers who play by the posting rules. I've never seen any undue influence or favoritism for WotC.
Let's face it, you knew the environment of the boards. You can't have missed that bans were flying right and left. You walked right into it.
There have been plenty of posts critical of 4e's design decisions that haven't led to any bans or warnings. I will also say that I have seen bans thrown for snarky posts directed at other publishers as well, not just WotC.
Let's face it, you knew the environment of the boards. You can't have missed that bans were flying right and left. You walked right into it.
I thought I knew the environment of the boards - generally fair. I haven't paid attention to bans and/or assumed that people were spewing profanities.
I didn't spew profanities, so I thought I was save from the prosecutions. I wasn't.
Presumably their opinion is that 4E will genuinely become the dominant topic of discussion and 3.0/3.5 (and offshoots thereof) will join AD&D and 2nd edition as "Ye Olde Games of Yesteryear." They could be wrong; who knows?Of course, the way they're running things it'll prove true; no one interested in Pathfinder will be visiting the site.
The same self-fulfilling prophecy could be in operation in this thread. Also, if you do actually support 3rd edition and actually do want Paizo to succeed, I doubt that vitriol and self-isolation are really going to further your ends.
Let's face it, you knew the environment of the boards. You can't have missed that bans were flying right and left. You walked right into it.
I thought I knew the environment of the boards - generally fair. I haven't paid attention to bans and/or assumed that people were spewing profanities.
I didn't spew profanities, so I thought I was save from the prosecutions. I wasn't.
ENWorld has always had a profanity filter (replaces it with smileys) so that's rarely ever been an issue. But the rules of civil posting had been in place and mods had been posting sticky threads saying that they were cracking down. All fair warning. I didn't lurk heavily through the 4e threads, but moderator presence and general irritation with behavior was pretty noticeable.
And yes, I saw them clamp down on 3e bashers too. I've seen it within the last couple weeks as well.
That's a point, but on the other hand, there was already a 3E board that mentioned PRPG in it's description.
PRPG is the newest iteration of a game that was once the inspiration for ENWorld. IMO you can't throw this baby together with all other historical version of D&D, because it's even not fully born yet, not to speak of it's bright future.
I don't think that ENWorld is controversial about what's going on. It's fine if they make some money with their 4E newspage, but it's not a d20/Open Gaming/3E page anymore.
Ain't that the frakkin truth...
Which is a damn shame. I use to spend 90% of my RPG-forum time there. I was genuinely shocked (I suppose I shouldn't have been) at how rapidly it became intolerant of non pro-4e viewpoints. In fairness, I think many of the moderators try to keep it accessible to all gamers, but I finally decided I was wasting my time trying to voice anything resembling an open discussion over there.
I have. I criticised some of the decisions in 4e, they turned the meaning right around and accused me of insulting all the 4e players, and banned me - with some condescending comments. Haven't seen any 3e-bashers banned.ENWorld tries to make the forum reasonably cordial, if not entirely friendly, to ALL publishers who play by the posting rules. I've never seen any undue influence or favoritism for WotC.
Let's face it, you knew the environment of the boards. You can't have missed that bans were flying right and left. You walked right into it.
There have been plenty of posts critical of 4e's design decisions that haven't led to any bans or warnings. I will also say that I have seen bans thrown for snarky posts directed at other publishers as well, not just WotC.
I'll concur that I didn't see bans for 4e criticisms. I did see bans where bad behavior from 4e-naysayers got out of hand. Strangely, though, when the rabid 4e-fanboys got out of hand, all that seemed to happen were general reminders to everyone to not break the forum rules. It happened enough times that it was definitely a pattern and not an isolated incident.
I'm not saying they're in the tank for WotC & 4e, but they're working real hard to stay WAAAYYY on that side of the fence.
The same self-fulfilling prophecy could be in operation in this thread. Also, if you do actually support 3rd edition and actually do want Paizo to succeed, I doubt that vitriol and self-isolation are really going to further your ends.
Neither vitriol nor self-isolation are the basis of my statement; it's simply an observation. Most people won't visit a site that looks down upon their preferred game system, even if it is done unintentionally. I know I won't.
But the rules of civil posting had been in place and mods had been posting sticky threads saying that they were cracking down. All fair warning. I didn't lurk heavily through the 4e threads, but moderator presence and general irritation with behavior was pretty noticeable.
Fair warning? Not by a long shot. I didn't insult anyone. They turned my words back on me and then banned without a warning.
You don't have to feel warned if you don't do anything wrong. When I see a debate about harder punishments for drug use, I don't restructure my life around it either, because since I don't use drugs, the punishments don't apply to me.
Of course, if they suddenly show up and say: "We noticed that you like chocolate, which we consider a drug. People can certainly get addicted. You used it before, so we treat it as a repeated offense." That won't help me.
Check out this thread for an example of why I was talking about the dangers of self-imposed isolation on the Paizo boards: Go to PAthfinder and the Beta
In short, if more people don't hear about PRPG, all the debate in the world on these forums won't matter, 'cause nobody will hear about this system. Paizo counts on our word of mouth as well as its more direct marketing to stay alive.
I recommend making a concerted effort to participate positively in forums like EnWorld and elsewhere, as it attract business and traffic to Paizo. BMCing doesn't.
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But the rules of civil posting had been in place and mods had been posting sticky threads saying that they were cracking down. All fair warning. I didn't lurk heavily through the 4e threads, but moderator presence and general irritation with behavior was pretty noticeable.Fair warning? Not by a long shot. I didn't insult anyone. They turned my words back on me and then banned without a warning.
This post, maybe?
Well, it's official: Wizards' target market for 4e is complete idiots. I guess it's a smart move, since there are an awful lot of those, but for the majority of existing players, this means that the new, dumbed-down, D&D will feel like going from university to "special class".
I guess that this is what you get when you let people who wrote a "...for Dummies" book or two design a game: They just assume that everyone's a dummy and treat them as that.
But the rules of civil posting had been in place and mods had been posting sticky threads saying that they were cracking down. All fair warning. I didn't lurk heavily through the 4e threads, but moderator presence and general irritation with behavior was pretty noticeable.Fair warning? Not by a long shot. I didn't insult anyone. They turned my words back on me and then banned without a warning.This post, maybe?
Well, it's official: Wizards' target market for 4e is complete idiots. I guess it's a smart move, since there are an awful lot of those, but for the majority of existing players, this means that the new, dumbed-down, D&D will feel like going from university to "special class".
I guess that this is what you get when you let people who wrote a "...for Dummies" book or two design a game: They just assume that everyone's a dummy and treat them as that.
Exactly. Note that I didn't insult existing players, (who I stated will probably feel like being treated as idiots), I just said that there are a lot of complete idiots - which no one can deny - and wizards makes games for them instead of the existing players.
It got turned around to say that I called everyone an idiot. I'm not doing that. wizards is. They go "gee, this power attack stuff with adding and subtracting stuff is too hard for you, here, let me fix that" but they of course aren't banned for that, probably because they paid more money to enworld.
Apparently you're missing the idea that target market = current players, target market = idiots, leads to current players who identify as part of the 4e target market = idiots. The mod who gave you the 3-day vacation saw that connection.
Whether or not you intended to insult the 4e target market or not, it was uncivil and that's counter to board rules.
Apparently you're missing the idea that target market = current players, target market = idiots, leads to current players who identify as part of the 4e target market = idiots.
Current players aren't in the target market at all. If they were, they'd make at least an effort to make them feel welcome, say, by keeping the old story instead of arbitrarily changing stuff, or forcing companies to decide between editions (like parents making their children take sides in a row).
You can defend them all you want, but they overreacted. And then were condescending about it.
Well, it's official: Wizards' target market for 4e is complete idiots. I guess it's a smart move, since there are an awful lot of those, but for the majority of existing players, this means that the new, dumbed-down, D&D will feel like going from university to "special class".
I guess that this is what you get when you let people who wrote a "...for Dummies" book or two design a game: They just assume that everyone's a dummy and treat them as that.
Wow... that is an incredibly condescending thing to say. No wonder you got banned.
Not in any way a moderator or anything, but I've seen this same thing several times before. It always ends ugly. Let's just leave the whole ENWorld conspiracy theories (whether true or false) alone. And let's also not dwell on KaeYoss' ban from there either. Whether you feel it was justified, want to play devil's advocate, or what, KaeYoss has found a great home here with the Paizo community. That's all that matters.
Also, whoever said something about making sure you post on the PRPG forums on ENWorld to raise awareness/interest was right on the money. Make sure you post there often and try to keep people that don't frequent these boards up to speed on the exciting things happening around here. Post some links, talk about the cool new rules being tried out, new adventures or other products, whatever. It all helps Paizo out.
Wow... that is an incredibly condescending thing to say. No wonder you got banned.
Well, I'd say not any more than what wizards has been saying (stuff like: "that's too complicated", "that way to play is not fun so we got rid of it." and all that.)
Anyway, I don't need enworld. Or wizards. Paizo has proven that they have a far better patience, and far better products. I really like it here. I feel like I can blindly buy whatever Paizo releases, since I haven't been disappointed yet.
Wow... that is an incredibly condescending thing to say. No wonder you got banned.Well, I'd say not any more than what wizards has been saying (stuff like: "that's too complicated", "that way to play is not fun so we got rid of it." and all that.)
Anyway, I don't need enworld. Or wizards. Paizo has proven that they have a far better patience, and far better products. I really like it here. I feel like I can blindly buy whatever Paizo releases, since I haven't been disappointed yet.
Leaving the thread jack behind, if you want to change the system, there's a thread just for you:
Go to Piratecat asks your opinion on the separate forum issue..