First of all, I am a bit confused about how the first part of the ability even works. The bard picks one Knowledge skill and essentially has max ranks in that skill at all times; I get that. But the part about him getting an extra skill point confuses me. Is that an extra skill point for another Knowledge skill? Is it an extra skill point for any skill?
Second of all, I don't think you even need the first part. The second part, granting a bard +1/2 his level on all Knowledge skills and letting him make Knowledge checks untrained is a perfect way to deal with Bardic Knowledge. You don't need a separate mechanic and the bard essentially knows a little about everything, which is what I think the ability is supposed to represent anyway. The first portion is just overkill IMHO.
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First of all, I am a bit confused about how the first part of the ability even works. The bard picks one Knowledge skill and essentially has max ranks in that skill at all times; I get that. But the part about him getting an extra skill point confuses me. Is that an extra skill point for another Knowledge skill? Is it an extra skill point for any skill?
I would understand it as follows:
"At 1st level, a bard selects one Knowledge skill in which he spent one rank. (1) He gains 1 bonus skill rank to place in that Knowledge skill. He gains 1 bonus skill rank in that Knowledge skill every time he gains a level. The bonus skill ranks do not count towards the maximal skill ranks per level limit.(2) In addition, a bard adds 1/2 his level (minimum 1) to all Knowledge skill checks and may make such checks untrained."
(1) I'm assuming that he still has to spend one rank from his normal pool before gaining the bonus rank.
(2) Clarified
I still dislike the confusing "spend ranks to gain ranks" terminology. Full rant here
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(1) I'm assuming that he still has to spend one rank from his normal pool before gaining the bonus rank.
(2) Clarified
I gotta disagree with you here, I think those ranks are free so that even if you never paid for another rank in the knowledge skill it would be maxed, but that if you want you can spend max ranks and have one knowledge skill at double the bonus any other character is getting.
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I gotta disagree with you here, I think those ranks are free so that even if you never paid for another rank in the knowledge skill it would be maxed, but that if you want you can spend max ranks and have one knowledge skill at double the bonus any other character is getting.
You are quite correct. The Alpha 3 rule gives a free rank and spends it automatically on that Knowledge check.
I don't like it for the following reason. It is not mechanically and flavourwise consistent with the way the +3 bonus for class skills works. In order to gain the bonus, you have to spend skill points from your normal pool, i.e. give evidence of training in that skill.
For the bard, you "select" a skill which is already a class skill and gain +4 to that skill at level 1 and +1 at every level.
I dislike the concept of the "super class skill", because it introduces an additional unnecessary exception in the way the skill system works.
I would like to see one small chunk from the bard's normal resource pool spent at level 1 to indicate the dedication to that skill.
Guys, here is what it says:
Bardic Knowledge: At 1st level, a bard selects one Knowledge skill. He gains 1 bonus skill rank to place in that Knowledge skill and an additional skill rank every time he gains a level. In addition, a bard adds 1/2 his level (minimum 1) to all Knowledge skill checks and may make such checks untrained.1st level Bard:
- Pick one Knowledge
- Get one rank in that skill
- Next Bard level, get another
- Then another
- Etc.
It's one extra skill point that has to go to a single Knowledge skill that you select. There is no change in max ranks, or language to say these don't count for that. It's just 1 more skill point, that must go to a specific Knowledge skill that you choose at 1st level bard.
In other words, it's a bonus rank, not a bonus to the skill.
First of all, I am a bit confused about how the first part of the ability even works. The bard picks one Knowledge skill and essentially has max ranks in that skill at all times; I get that. But the part about him getting an extra skill point confuses me. Is that an extra skill point for another Knowledge skill? Is it an extra skill point for any skill?
My reading is that the bard picks a knowledge skill and gets the skill points to max out that knowledge skill as "bonus points". Full stop.
So essentially every bard has one (1) free maxed-out knowledge skill of her choice.
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There is no change in max ranks, or language to say these don't count for that. It's just 1 more skill point, that must go to a specific Knowledge skill that you choose at 1st level bard.
If it's a bonus rank, it shouldn't count towards the max ranks. I would allow the bard to spend his normal ranks.
How I wish we went back to the skill points and skill ranks distinction!
It's one extra skill point that has to go to a single Knowledge skill that you select. There is no change in max ranks, or language to say these don't count for that. It's just 1 more skill point, that must go to a specific Knowledge skill that you choose at 1st level bard.
In other words, it's a bonus rank, not a bonus to the skill.
Thanks, Majuba. I think I understand now.
Still, I think it's overkill. I think the second half of bardic knowledge is more than sufficient. I mean, they already took the most powerful class in the game and made it even more powerful. That's right; I said the bard is the most powerful class in the game, but that's an argument for another thread.
There's nothing in the text that even vaguely supports getting double max ranks in a skill. It's not a bonus to the skill check, it's a rank in the skill. You cannot have more ranks in a skill than your character level. End of discussion.
It's hardly a powerful ability. It's basically one free skill point per level that has to go into a skill that will rarely, if ever, provide you with any actual mechanical benefits (Knowledge Devotion or Archivist class - which wouldn't really benefit from this anyway except in Gestalt - aside). Then on top of that, you get a small but significant bonus to all knowledge skill checks.
Since Bards generally won't have the huge Intelligence scores that Wizards tend to have, it basically means that the Bard will match the Wizard in one or two Knowledge skill/s and will (probably) have a higher number of Knowledge skills he can use at a lesser bonus than the Wizard.
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There's nothing in the text that even vaguely supports getting double max ranks in a skill. It's not a bonus to the skill check, it's a rank in the skill. You cannot have more ranks in a skill than your character level. End of discussion.
Indeed, terms such as "bonus" as in "1 bonus skill rank" and "additional" as in "an additional skill rank" indicate that this may be an exception to the level = max ranks rule. A "bonus item" of kind A doesn't usually exist without a normal item of kind A. Ditto for additional.
I appreciate your input, but I'd also appreciate if you wouldn't take upon yourself to declare that the discussion is over. We are brainstorming and tweaking and poking holes to help the designers make the best rule set possible. My belief is that the more we do it here, the less headaches and arguments there will be at the gaming table.
If decent and reasonable folk think that something could do with some clarification, please let them argue and (over)analyze till they get bored with it.
In my games, Knowledge plays a huge role both in and out of combat and most of my players invest a sizeable chunk of their skill points into Knowledge skills and are rewarded for that.
I believe one of the points of giving out a free maxed out skill may be due to the fact that the Pathfinder bard requires you to have more than one perform skill maxed or nearly maxed in order for you to perform all of your bardic abilities to their fullest extent.
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Here is how i am using it for the play-tests:
--At 1st level the bard chooses 1 knowledge skill.
--He gets 1 rank in that for free (doesn't count against his skill points) and that becomes his "favored knowledge skill" (thats my term, not paizo's)
--Each time he levels up, he gets 1 rank for free (doesn't count against his skill points) in this favored knowledge skill.
--This favored skill may not exceed max ranks for a skill.
--All other knowledge skills may be made untrained, and get a bonus of 1/2 bard level to their checks.
(I tried to be as clear as i could with this. Wasn't trying to offend anyone's intelligence.)
I found this works very well. Only real benefit it gave the bard was that he could identify most monsters he came across. So each time we got into combat, he would go "Oh! this is a ____. Did you know that ____?" and tied it into this inspire courage ability, by explaining what the monster was, its weaknesses, etc.
I think this is great. And i dont think it harms any other class, or makes the bard overpowered in any way.
Just my 2cp from our play-tests so far.
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What about the bonus ranks makes you think it should transcend the max ranks? You can houserule the "uberskill" for bardic lore, but there's no text that indicates that this is the standard rule, and there is text to indicate that it isn't (namely, the default rule of max ranks).
A similar situation occurs with "Bonus feats". These are bonus/additional feat slots and allow the character to exceed the maximal number of feats he gains from character advancement.
See also what I wrote above:
Indeed, terms such as "bonus" as in "1 bonus skill rank" and "additional" as in "an additional skill rank" ...
Please note that I would just like the wording to be clarified, as it is currently too ambiguous (as our discussion demonstrates) :-)
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A similar situation occurs with "Bonus feats". These are bonus/additional feat slots and allow the character to exceed the maximal number of feats he gains from character advancement.See also what I wrote above:
Indeed, terms such as "bonus" as in "1 bonus skill rank" and "additional" as in "an additional skill rank" ...Please note that I would just like the wording to be clarified, as it is currently too ambiguous (as our discussion demonstrates) :-)
It uses nearly exact the same wording as the one for the human bonus skill rank (with the added limitation on one knowledge skill).
A similar situation occurs with "Bonus feats". These are bonus/additional feat slots and allow the character to exceed the maximal number of feats he gains from character advancement.
There are no rules stating how many feats a character can have. Indeed, the DMG recommends giving bonus feats in certain circumstances.
There is, on the other hand, a hard and fast rule that has NEVER ONCE been broken in any 3.0 or 3.5 book that you cannot exceed the maximum skill ranks for your level.
A rank is a rank. Do you not call a bonus feat a feat? Does it not provide you with all the benefits of a feat? Does it not count as a feat for purposes of things that count feats?
Same thing with the skill ranks from Bardic Knowledge. They are skill ranks for ALL purposes. There is no text whatsoever that implies they count as ranks for every purpose EXCEPT maximum ranks. "Bonus" just means you get them without spending points in them - they're free. They don't break the cap.
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There are no rules stating how many feats a character can have.
That's odd. I always assumed that the text on page 22 of the 3.5 PHB gave the rules for that.
Feats: Every character gains one feat at 1st level and another at every level divisible by three (3rd, 6th, 9th, 12th, 15th, and 18th level). These feats are in addition to any bonus feats granted as class features (see the class descriptions later in this chapter) and the bonus feat granted to all humans. See Chapter 5: Feats for more information about feats.
Same for the text on page 87
Additionally, members of some classes get bonus feats as class features. These feats may be chosen from special lists (see Fighter Bonus Feats, below, and the individual class descriptions in Chapter 3 for details).
A human character also gets a bonus feat at 1st level, chosen by the player. This feat can be of any feat for which the character qualifies.
There is, on the other hand, a hard and fast rule that has NEVER ONCE been broken in any 3.0 or 3.5 book that you cannot exceed the maximum skill ranks for your level. A rank is a rank.
Ranks were ranks in 3.0/3.5.
In Alpha 3, we have
1. ranks which are skill points (used to buy real ranks)
2. ranks which are ranks
3. unnamed bonuses which function as 3.0/3.5 ranks (+3 to class skills)
Considering the fundamental changes in the concepts and skill mechanics between 3.5 and Alpha 3, I wouldn't base an argument on the 3.5 max ranks per level rule.
Do you not call a bonus feat a feat? Does it not provide you with all the benefits of a feat? Does it not count as a feat for purposes of things that count feats?
A bonus feat is a bonus feat slot.
Same thing with the skill ranks from Bardic Knowledge. They are skill ranks for ALL purposes. There is no text whatsoever that implies they count as ranks for every purpose EXCEPT maximum ranks. "Bonus" just means you get them without spending points in them - they're free. They don't break the cap.
That's one very likely possibility. The fact that they are called "bonus" and "additional" indicates that they have an unusual status. Whether or not they are an exception to the max ranks per level is not clear.
The rule is already an exception to the freedom to spend one's fee/bonus ranks (Thanks, Jadeite for mentioning the human bonus rank (point).)
Would they be an exception to the freedom of spending one's normal ranks (points)? If they are, I'd like this to be clarified.
Finally, I'm glad you're bearing with me and my pedantism and I'm glad that the discussion is not over.