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Okay, so what's different...
As far as I can tell skills have been adjusted to match Pathfinder but not really changed, and skill points per level, BAB and saves remain the same.
Adepts and Aristocrats have the same HD, and Commoners, Experts and Warriors have bumped up a HD - Commoners d4 -> d6, Experts d6 -> d8, and Warriors d8 -> d10. That keeps them in line with the PC classes whose HDs increased.
And a couple of opinions...
Class Features
* Adapts are clerics stripped of everything good and Warriors are about the same, so the fact that they have no special 'class features' is fine.
* Commoners are meant to suck, so the same goes for them.
* Aristocrats and Experts, though, are a little different from the core classes so I'd like to see them have some kind of unique class ability. Aristocrat could pick up some little ability related to diplomacy, governing, leading, maybe the Leadership feat.
* Experts could have a higher class-skills bonus than everyone else (+5) to make sure an Expert with ranks in Profession is better than a Rogue or Wizard with the same ranks. Or make Experts the only ones who have Profession as a class skill; everyone else can take Profession ranks but it's only a class skill for Experts.
Class Skills
When comparing Pathfinder and the SRD looking for differences I looked at class skill and realized the NPC class skills are all out of whack.
* Again, Adept and Warrior are okay because they are similar to their parent classes.
* Experts have the "any 10" thing going, which gives them flexibility but seems like way too many to me. They get 6 skill points/level so I'd say "any 6." We want experts to be highly trained specialists, not Jacks of all trades.
* Aristocrats rightfully have a bunch of class skills, but some of them seem odd: Disguise, Perception, Survival. With cross-class skills gone, they could take ranks in these but they shouldn't be the norm. Unless we want to say that most Aristocrats as good at Disguise as a rogue or bard, better at Perception than a fighter, and as good at survival as a druid or ranger. Not me.
* Commoners class skills list is crazy: Climb, Craft, Handle Animals, Perception, Profession, Ride, and Swim. See, I see Commoners as the base so they really should have any skill that someone else is denied. Clerics, paladins, wizards and sorcerers don't get Climb, why should a Commoner? Craft, okay, everybody seems to get that. Handle Animals, okay. Perception! clerics, fighters, paladins, wizards and sorcerers don't get Perception! Yet a farmer does? Wrong! I don't think anybody but Experts ought to get Profession. And sure a Commoner may be able to Ride and Swim, but I don't see any reason why they should be especially good at it. So my suggested Commoner class skills list is: Craft, Handle Animals. That's it. They can take anything else, but they sure as Hell don't get any +3s for it.
Other NPC Classes
I'd also like to see a stripped down wizard and rogue. I'd actually rename the current divinely powered Adept "Acolyte" and the stripped down wizard "Adept." The wannabe rogue could just be called a "Thief."
Fun fact: 90% of people in the middle ages were illiterate.
I think giving commoners the barbarian's illiteracy class ability would pretty much cover that, and fit the theme of commoners getting the short end of every stick :).
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Commoners class skills list is crazy: Climb, Craft, Handle Animals, Perception, Profession, Ride, and Swim. See, I see Commoners as the base so they really should have any skill that someone else is denied. Clerics, paladins, wizards and sorcerers don't get Climb, why should a Commoner? Craft, okay, everybody seems to get that. Handle Animals, okay. Perception! clerics, fighters, paladins, wizards and sorcerers don't get Perception! Yet a farmer does? Wrong! I don't think anybody but Experts ought to get Profession. And sure a Commoner may be able to Ride and Swim, but I don't see any reason why they should be especially good at it. So my suggested Commoner class skills list is: Craft, Handle Animals. That's it. They can take anything else, but they sure as Hell don't get any +3s for it.
OK let me start by saying I see where you are coming from on perception. Lose it.
Now lets look at the rest. Remember Commoner is the everyone else. They need to be able to be good at what they do. Not all of them are farmers.
--Climb--For the local thatcher, lumberjack, carpenter, honey gatherer, fruit picker. Most of these guys are arguably the best climbers you will run across. How many wizards do roofing on the side?
--Swim--For some types of Fishermen, Sponge Divers, River bargemen, Canal workers,etc. Try swimming with a guy who makes his living in the water and see if your cleric, rogue or wizard can keep up with him.
--Ride--For that herdsman who spends 12 hours a day in a saddle watching cows fart. Not exciting but a damn good rider.
--Profession--Farming and any craft can be a profession. Without that every business owner must be an expert. I don't buy it. According to the Profession skill this is just the ability to use a craft or other skill to make a living and supervise others in the endeavor. That is pretty much every commoner.
Remember these classes are here for GMs to build NPCs who need to have certain skills to function. They don't need to balance against the PC classes. But they should be able to be as good at their jobs as a PC who just dabbles in the same skills. The Thatcher with the good climbing shouldn't be invested in the swim skill without a good reason but that is up to the GM to rationalize.
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Profession--Farming and any craft can be a profession. Without that every business owner must be an expert. I don't buy it. According to the Profession skill this is just the ability to use a craft or other skill to make a living and supervise others in the endeavor. That is pretty much every commoner.
I see your point, although I was thinking the farmer would still take Profession (farmer) and just not get the +3 class-skill bonus. That way, a Commoner with 3 ranks of Profession (farmer) would still be inferior to an Expert with 3 ranks of Profession (farmer). One would be a dirt-scraping peasant and the other would be more of a modern farmer - someone actually wise to the hows and whys of agriculture. But that's a pretty fine fine point and I wouldn't die if Profession stays on Commoners' skill list.
As far as the other ones go, I have this idea that Profession is basically an NPC and background builder skill that works a little different than others. In my mind Profession represents all the skills and knowledge a person needs to do a particular job; it's a complete package. So your thatcher or bee-keeper wouldn't need Climb because climbing is part of their job and thus included in their Profession skill. The same with Swim and a sailor. Swim and Profession (sailor) overlap and it would be redundant to take them both (or represent a sailor who can swim better than most other sailors). There is no Profession (adventurer) skill so adventuring skills get broken down and adventures take them one by one - Swim, Climb, Ride, etc. But that's probably a pretty unique interpretation of Profession so I can accept Climb, Ride and Swim sticking around too.
But Perception has to go.
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Profession--Farming and any craft can be a profession. Without that every business owner must be an expert. I don't buy it. According to the Profession skill this is just the ability to use a craft or other skill to make a living and supervise others in the endeavor. That is pretty much every commoner.I see your point, although I was thinking the farmer would still take Profession (farmer) and just not get the +3 class-skill bonus. That way, a Commoner with 3 ranks of Profession (farmer) would still be inferior to an Expert with 3 ranks of Profession (farmer). One would be a dirt-scraping peasant and the other would be more of a modern farmer - someone actually wise to the hows and whys of agriculture. But that's a pretty fine fine point and I wouldn't die if Profession stays on Commoners' skill list.
As far as the other ones go, I have this idea that Profession is basically an NPC and background builder skill that works a little different than others. In my mind Profession represents all the skills and knowledge a person needs to do a particular job; it's a complete package. So your thatcher or bee-keeper wouldn't need Climb because climbing is part of their job and thus included in their Profession skill. The same with Swim and a sailor. Swim and Profession (sailor) overlap and it would be redundant to take them both (or represent a sailor who can swim better than most other sailors). There is no Profession (adventurer) skill so adventuring skills get broken down and adventures take them one by one - Swim, Climb, Ride, etc. But that's probably a pretty unique interpretation of Profession so I can accept Climb, Ride and Swim sticking around too.
But Perception has to go.
I thinks the main hang up is in our interpretations of Profession as a skill. My read has always been the profession skill is what separates the skilled glass blower from the guy who owns the shop. The artist might have a better Craft-Glassblowing but the Owner has Profession-Glassblowing and a few ranks in Craft. I don't think that profession gives you any of the skills on the list it just lets you monetize them. Our theoretical Glassblower makes great decanters but the owner knows how to set up a shop, not run afoul of the tax man, source raw materials, collect debts and may or may not be very good at making decanters himself. I see experts as a way to replace thief type NPCs, high powered business types and to make up "sage" type knowledge NPCs. The rank and file business owners make up most of my NPCs with Experts in charge of the "megastore" businesses or in places of authority in the guilds.
As far as the farmers go, you and I agree for the most part. Single family farms don't need the profession farmer skill but the head of the grange might or the guy who runs the local baron's fields for him. I think I tend to make anyone a commoner unless I have to.
PROFESSION (WIS; TRAINED ONLY)Like Craft, Knowledge, and Perform, Profession is actually a number of separate skills. You could have several Profession skills, each with its own ranks, each purchased as a separate skill. While a Craft skill represents ability in creating or making an item, a Profession skill represents an aptitude in a vocation requiring a broader range of less specific knowledge.
Check: You can practice your trade and make a decent living, earning about half your Profession check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work. You know how to use the tools of your trade, how to perform the profession’s daily tasks, how to supervise helpers, and how to handle common problems.
Action: Not applicable. A single check generally represents a week of work.
Try Again: Varies. An attempt to use a Profession skill to earn an income cannot be retried. You are stuck with whatever weekly wage your check result brought you. Another check may be made after a week to determine a new income for the next period of time. An attempt to accomplish some specific task can usually be retried.
Untrained: Untrained laborers and assistants (that is, characters without any ranks in Profession) earn an average of 1 silver piece per day.
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I thinks the main hang up is in our interpretations of Profession as a skill. My read has always been the profession skill is what separates the skilled glass blower from the guy who owns the shop. The artist might have a better Craft-Glassblowing but the Owner has Profession-Glassblowing and a few ranks in Craft. I don't think that profession gives you any of the skills on the list it just lets you monetize them.
Interesting. I've never thought about Profession in that way. It would almost be like a general Business Savvy, rather than my all-the-knowledge-and-skills definition. You almost wouldn't even need to say any specific trade because that part would get picked up by the Craft part. Interesting.
Single family farms don't need the Profession (farmer) skill...
See, I'd give them a few ranks in Profession (farmer), I just wouldn't give them the expertise that the +3 class-skill bonus represents.
My take on Craft BTW is that it should represent the bit of Profession that an adventurer (or other non Expert) might use. An Expert with Profession (bowyer/fletcher) could make bows and arrows and wouldn't need ranks in Craft to do it because that ability is already rolled into her Profession. But an adventurer wanted to be able to make arrows would take Craft (arrows). He could make the arrows he needs but wouldn't get the whole package - making bows and arrows, knowledge of the history or nuances of bowyery, the business skills, etc.
Granted, this distinction between Profession and Craft came to me back in the days of cross-classes skills, when I could say to an adventurer Profession costs you 2 points per rank but Craft only costs you 1. Maybe now that there is no differentiation in the cost of skills. my model swings closer to your suggestion that Profession represent the business skills part plus maybe the knowledge/tradition part, and Craft is the actual making part. [Interestingly, this is very similar to the Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft split, which makes sense to me but some folks hate.] I think I'd still want to see Craft be pretty specif though, no Craft (weapons), rather Craft (blades), Craft (bows), Craft (pole arms), and Profession (weaponsmithing) to run the shop.
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I think I'd still want to see Craft be pretty specif though, no Craft (weapons), rather Craft (blades), Craft (bows), Craft (pole arms), and Profession (weapon smithing) to run the shop.
I certainly agree with that. My players get rather annoyed that I make them add skills that are not on the list to represent specialization in craft skills. But, the more specfic the craft skill the more of a bonus I give them as long as they stay within their area of expertise.
Example:Bud has 2 ranks in Craft-Wainwright and 2 ranks in Craft-Blacksmith since as the youngest brother in the only ironworks in town he got stuck shoeing horses and making nails for the town as well as making wagons. He also has 1 Rank in Profession-Blacksmith since he started selling his services once he moved away from home.
Dori has 4 ranks in Craft-Knifemaking but I give her a +2 for focus when making knives but if she strays outside that skill she is almost useless. She can make knives very well. Bud can make wagon wheels, and in a pinch barrel hoops, wagon springs, even repair an ax or a cooking pot.
When the archer in the group needs arrow heads I ruled Dori would be better since he wants a thin razor sharp blade with good balance. When the artificer wanted to make one of those magic bands items for capturing bad guys, Bud was the obvious choice since he is specialized in making continuous rings of metal. As you can see I have really played around with the Craft skills and house ruled in rules for focus and rank craft skills based on General vs. specialized.
I break weaponsmithing down to Swordsmithing for any long bladed flexible weapons like swords spears and most polearm heads, Weaponsmithing for most of the more solid weapons like Axes, maces, flails etc. and Bowyer for bows and crossbows as well as arrows (but not the heads). And that seems to cover most of what comes up.
I favour having commoners pick any four class skills and gaining the illiteracy class feature. I'd also like to give them a bonus to using diplomacy to plead for the lives of themselves or loved ones. It just seems something common in fantasy. And maybe add a class feature where if they know a person with PC class levels they are 75% more likely to be captured but 90% less likely to be killed.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I'd also vote for commoners to have illiteracy. As for experts, I'd like to see them have a class feature that every even level of expert, they can get a +2 competency bonus to a skill that they have skill focus in.
I also like the idea that Aristocrats either get leadership as a bonus feat at 6th level and/or a +2 to their leadership score.
I agree with the idea that Commoners should be illiterate. If they want to read, they can blow some of their scant skill points on it.
As for the Craft/Profession debate:
Craft is the process of making something of value from RAW materials. Examples of craft:
Smithing (any)
Glassblowing
Baking
Brewing
Carpentry
Profession is providing a service.
Examples of profession:
Innkeeper
Waiter/Waitress
Beaurocrat
Peddler/Tradesman
Perform means providing entertainment. While entertainment might be considered a service, it is one where Charisma is more important than Wisdom.
Examples of Perform:
Oratory
Singing
Musical Instrument (any)
Acting
Dancing
Gray areas:
Some foodservice jobs are arguably craft, but they do not multiply the value of raw materials the way a craft skill does. For instance, a Butcher probably uses the Profession skill, because his job is more similar to that of a merchant (buy in big lots, sell in small ones for a profit) than that of a carpenter. For the butcher, meat goes in and meat comes out. In contrast, a carpenter has wood and nails go in, but furniture, cabinets, or buildings come out.
I would be willing to define two cooking skills: Profession(Cook) and Craft(Chef).
Prostitution might be considered a profession or a performance (Perform(Sex)), depending. Given usefulness of charisma in this case, I'm going with perform. (As well as the potential for attracting the attention of a deity with a really high check.) (However, I will never allow a Bard at my table to have that as his/her chosen Perform skill.)
Farming is a profession because there is no transformation of raw materials: The plants handle that part.