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Feint is still out of line with other CMs which use d20 + CMB vs DC 15 + CMB.
That particular (hopefully not deceased) horse was flogged here.
Feint is still out of line with other CMs which use d20 + CMB vs DC 15 + CMB.
That particular (hopefully not deceased) horse was flogged here.
Isn't it's formula more or less the same as Tumble's?
Whatever the specific base DC numbers for these, they seem at least consistent,
since Tumble and Feint are both skill-based checks, that don't actually "DO" anything TO the opponent, which is why they are DEX/CHA +skill based rather than STR + BAB based.
What's strange is that Feint is listed 'within' the Combat Maneuvers, even though it obviously isn't using the standard CMB rules, yet Tumble, which is using roughly the same rules as Feint, is only listed in the Skill section. At the least, Tumble needs to be listed next to Feint, with just a note in the skill section pointing to it's combat usage (like Bluff/Feint gets.)
I have one question for Jason to answer, though:
Is including Feint within the Combat Maneuvers meant to allow the use of the Agile Maneuvers Feat to apply DEX to Feints as well? (Tumble obviously doesn't need that help, already using DEX.)
Hopefully we'll get them cleared up at least (say, "and these maneuvers don't use CMB, but use DEX/CHA+skill vs. BAB+counterskill instead"), instead of shoe-horning Feint in at the end of the Combat Maneuvers without distinction outside of it's own specifics.
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Isn't it's formula more or less the same as Tumble's?
Whatever the specific base DC numbers for these, they seem at least consistent, since Tumble and Feint are both skill-based checks, that don't actually "DO" anything TO the opponent, which is why they are DEX/CHA +skill based rather than STR + BAB based.
I would think that Feint does something to the enemy, i.e. puts him/her/it on its wrong foot/tentacle and makes him unable to apply the DEX bonus to AC. It is a "special attack" in 3.5 parlance. Tumble isn't.
Another strange thing is that the defender uses her BAB to defend against the Feint, but the attacker doesn't. It would appear that skill with weapons is great for defending but useless for attacking, which strikes me as very odd.
My feeling is that for a successful streamlining of the 3.5 Special Attacks body of rules to happen all combat maneuvers should use the d20 + CMB vs DC 15 + CMB formula.
If the formula doesn't work in a specific case, calling an action a combat maneuver is confusing and takes us back to 3.5 and its quite complex rules for Special Attacks.
I don't necessarily think Feint should use CMB (moving distractingly so you aren't where the enemy thinks you will be isn't necessarily doing anything to THEM, it's just mis-representing yourself), but if it's NOT using CMB, it SHOULD BE placed in it's own section along with Tumblr (right after the CMB, sure), since combat movement mechanics shouldn't really be in the skill section along with Animal Handling.
I mean, meta-wise, Tumble & Feint being skills match the skill-monkey Rogue, the Combat Maneuvers work well with full BAB and lots of Feats (Fighter), so to use BAB for Tumble & Feint would be penalising Rogues vs. full BAB classes. (BEHOLD... THE LONE TUMBLING RANGER!!!)
....OK, Jason, smell a dead horse?
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I don't necessarily think Feint should use CMB (moving distractingly so you aren't where the enemy thinks you will be isn't necessarily doing anything to THEM, it's just mis-representing yourself), but if it's NOT using CMB, it SHOULD BE placed in it's own section along with Tumblr (right after the CMB, sure), since combat movement mechanics shouldn't really be in the skill section along with Animal Handling.
I'm not sure I understand in what way feinting is a combat movement rather than a special attack and in what way it is similar to tumbling in combat.
(From the Wikipedia)
[In fencing], feints are maneuvers designed to distract or mislead, done by giving the impression that a certain maneuver will take place, while in fact another, or even none will.
Also, reducing the enemy's AC against one's upcoming attack is definitely doing something to the enemy.
I'm not sure I understand in what way feinting is a combat movement rather than a special attack and in what way it is similar to tumbling in combat.
Sorry... I mainly meant mechanically they are similar: They both don't benefit from the the Feinter's/ Tumbler's BAB/CMB, are dependent on skill ranks instead, are penalized by the opponents BAB, but not CMB modifiers...
And although feint is obviously DETRIMENTAL for an opponent who "falls for it" (doesn't have enough Sense Motive + BAB to counter your roll + Bluff) they aren't subject to a physical/force effect, it's basically the same outcome as an illusion like Mirror Image... Which has a save, of course, but not dependent on BAB/CMB type stuff.
Anyhow, as long as Feint isn't working like a CMB, there's no point calling it a Combat Maneuver, right? At least I haven't read any opinions to the contrary here....
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Sorry... I mainly meant mechanically they are similar: They both don't benefit from the the Feinter's/ Tumbler's BAB/CMB, are dependent on skill ranks instead, are penalized by the opponents BAB, but not CMB modifiers...
I see now what you mean.
And although feint is obviously DETRIMENTAL for an opponent who "falls for it" (doesn't have enough Sense Motive + BAB to counter your roll + Bluff) they aren't subject to a physical/force effect,
Correct. It's a "special attack" in 3.5 parlance. Like Disarm, it doesn't cause hp damage.
it's basically the same outcome as an illusion like Mirror Image... Which has a save, of course, but not dependent on BAB/CMB type stuff.
I'm still lost here, I'm afraid. :-)
Anyhow, as long as Feint isn't working like a CMB, there's no point calling it a Combat Maneuver, right? At least I haven't read any opinions to the contrary here....
That's my main issue with the current Feint. It's out of line with other CMs, but is still called a CM.
Streamlining combat implies getting rid as much as possible of the disparate rules governing the 3.5 special attacks and using d20 + CMB vs DC 15 + CMB formula for all actions where the BAB (which represents combat training) and attack modifiers are likely to have a significant influence on the outcome.