Why did the monk class lose diplomacy as a class skill?
Surely the wise monk who always seeks a peaceful settlement and only resorts to butt-kicking when all else fails is a trope worthy of preservation.
Gary
Yeah, but have you seen how often he fails at Diplomacy? He can take the Diplomatic path all he wants, but anybody who's seen a Wuxia flick will tell you they're really bad at it.
lol
Monks have a secret class ability not listed in the book that causes them to enrage others by speaking calmly and being rational.
Because I've seen enough wuxia flicks to know that it is a fundamental truth that the more calm, wise and reasonable the martial artist, the more likely the idiot who really, really ought to be listening to him will hit him.
Aha... My roommate is a monk. He can enrage people as well by speaking calmly and rationally.
Gailbraithe wrote: Because I've seen enough wuxia flicks to know that it is a fundamental truth that the more calm, wise and reasonable the martial artist, the more likely the idiot who really, really ought to be listening to him will hit him. I think it's something to do with the bad dubbing.
;P
tfad
This is a valid point.
I like the monk having diplomacy.
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I actually prefer each class having a shorter list of class skills. With the elimination of cross-class skills, even if something isn't on your class skill lists, you can still do it, you just don't get the special +3. A lot of classes have things on their lists that don't strike me as essential or iconic to those classes. I favor boiling down class skills down to the essentials.
I'm no expert on monks but my image is that they are somewhat withdrawn, so for me, Diplomacy doesn't seem essential. You can build a diplomatic monk by taking ranks in Diplomacy, but without a feat to make up the +3, a monk just isn't going to be as diplomatic as a bard (for whom, I would argue, Diplomacy is an essential skill).
Mosaic wrote: I'm no expert on monks but my image is that they are somewhat withdrawn, so for me, Diplomacy doesn't seem essential. You can build a diplomatic monk by taking ranks in Diplomacy, but without a feat to make up the +3, a monk just isn't going to be as diplomatic as a bard (for whom, I would argue, Diplomacy is an essential skill). Surely, the withdrawn monk is only one version of what a monk character might look like (just as is the diplomatic bard -- what about the moody artist who snaps at anyone who questions his brilliance?).
One of the stated goals of Pathfinder is 'More options'. By getting rids of diplomatic monks, options are actually being curtailed.
Gary
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Gary McBride wrote: By getting rids of diplomatic monks, options are actually being curtailed. I don't think options are being curtailed, just bonuses. You can still build a diplomatic monk, just not a +3 diplomatic monk.
Mosaic wrote: Gary McBride wrote: By getting rids of diplomatic monks, options are actually being curtailed. I don't think options are being curtailed, just bonuses. You can still build a diplomatic monk, just not a +3 diplomatic monk. Surely, class skills are about character options as well as bonuses. If you got rid of stealth as a class skill for rogues, wouldn't you be limiting options of rogues?
Gary
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Gary McBride wrote: Surely, class skills are about character options as well as bonuses. If you got rid of stealth as a class skill for rogues, wouldn't you be limiting options of rogues? Sure, but Stealth is the signature skill for a rogue. Are you telling me that Diplomacy is the one skill that monks need more than any other? If you are, then I'm cool with Diplomacy as a class skill for monks. But I'm guessing it isn't.
Again, my argument is that class skills should pretty much be limited to those things that are essential to a class and that almost every member of that class will take ranks in. Thus the name 'class skills' and not just 'useful skills.'
Mosaic wrote: Sure, but Stealth is the signature skill for a rogue. Are you telling me that Diplomacy is the one skill that monks need more than any other? If you are, then I'm cool with Diplomacy as a class skill for monks. But I'm guessing it isn't.
Again, my argument is that class skills should pretty much be limited to those things that are essential to a class and that almost every member of that class will take ranks in. Thus the name 'class skills' and not just 'useful skills.'
I'm not sure I'd call stealth the signature skill for rogues. Disable Device/Open Locks/Thievery (whatever you call it) holds that honor in my mind. Many rogues can function perfectly well without stealth (I've seen it more than once) so its ludicrous to say all rogue concepts need that skill 'more than any other'. But regardless, the point is moot. I certainly don't disagree that stealth should be a rogue class skill.
The idea of a peace-maker monk who tries to resolve problems without violence seems pretty iconic. To be an effective peace-maker, the monk needs diplomacy as a class skill. Many monks in published material have it as a class skill. So it meets two of the stated goals of Pathfinder -- Compatibility and More Options.
Certainly it is more iconic to the monk concept than the Ride or Perform skills (both currently class skills). Currently, monks can't specialize in peace negotiation but they can master ballet. This needs to change.
As an aside, I actually disagree with your fundamental premise. I don't want to restrict class skills. In fact, in any D&D game (or Pathfinder for that matter) I run, the concept of class skills will be house ruled away. If you want to play a reformed monk with a criminal past, you go! A well travelled monk who has wandered the world may have knowledge (geography). In fact, I've played for years in multiple campaigns without class skills and have only seen the games get better as character options are greatly expanded.
Yay freedom!
Gary
an easy way to do that is to keep class skills (since the bonus mechanic is a part of the system) but count the # of skills a class has and allow a player to choose x skills to match the previous skills. The only issue you run into are skills that have subcategories, a bard has all the knowledge skills but a ranger has only knowledge (dungeoneering) so do you count the bard as having a # of skills = to # of subcategories or do you just count knowledge (or even perform or craft) as one? I would say that for the classes that have it as a general it counts as one, but you might not agree.
lastknightleft wrote: an easy way to do that is to keep class skills (since the bonus mechanic is a part of the system) but count the # of skills a class has and allow a player to choose x skills to match the previous skills. The only issue you run into are skills that have subcategories, a bard has all the knowledge skills but a ranger has only knowledge (dungeoneering) so do you count the bard as having a # of skills = to # of subcategories or do you just count knowledge (or even perform or craft) as one? I would say that for the classes that have it as a general it counts as one, but you might not agree. You could certainly do this in a house rule if you so cared. I never bothered. The limit of the number of skill points (or now ... the number of trained skills) always seemed limit enough. And really if a ranger decided that he served as liaison between the forest folk and the town folk and took diplomacy and sense motive as class skills, if never really seemed to affect the game anyway but positively in years of play.
This is an interesting discussion but it seems we are straying away from the original intent of this thread. I am not really advocating no class skills as a rules change to Pathfinder.
Instead, I am advocating that the monk needs diplomacy.
Gary
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