Long Sunday afternoon so we decided to do a spur of the moment playtest
4 players (most with 20 + years of roleplaying experience, one relative novice (~ 5 years). 3 out of the 4 had DM'd 3,5 games
Started at level 6, everyone had to play a different class and race. Equipment from the NPC starting equip (DMG) and core items only
PC's
Half-Orc Barbarian
Dwarven Fighter
Gnome Sorcerer (Elemental (earth) bloodline)
Human Cleric of the sun (Fire & Healing domains)
Map was based on an old / old adventure and the monsters were rolled randomly on the DMG level 6 dungeon table rather than using the encounter rules.
Encounter 1
Started with a tough one, 3 x Gray Render Zombies (CR9) approached the party from three sides. Barbarian got sandwiched and burnt through all bar 3 of his rage points in this encounter. Cleric had taken extra turning and selective channeling so made full use of the channeling rules, though the zombies only needed 4 or more to avoid being frightened. Since the 133 hp zombies were taking 10 points of damage every burst it wasn't a major impact, but combined with the healing made you feel you were getting some value out of your turning attempts.
End of the ecnounter the party went through 10 charges of the wand of cure light....
Encounter 2
Rolled an annis - since they're deceptive the party found a locked cell with an angelic looking prisoner. key was in next room
Encounter 3
1/2 dragon F4 (CR6). just used the stats straight out of the monster manual. The party botched the door so got breath weaponed after hacking through it. Gnome laughed it off (bloodline) and by now the cleric had shield other on the barbarian. Party charged and eventually hacked it down. Dwarf by now complaining about overhand chop being useless as it gives only 1/2 strength bonus to damage compared to a normal 2H attack but makes you give up second itterative attack. Cleric used some selective channleing to mass heal which combined with the shield other kept the barbarian fighting fit.
(cont)
Yeah overhand chop is one of thouse gate way feats you need it for backswing thats what you take once you get your second attack
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Also, Overhand chop is a lot nicer of an option before you get iterative attacks. Play at level 5 instead of 6 and there's no tradeoff.
by the time you have extra attacks, you should be able to get the next feat in the chain, which is a better comparison to your # of attacks then.
Yeah overhand chop is one of thouse gate way feats you need it for backswing thats what you take once you get your second attack
Thats what we thought, but it wouldn't be too gamebreaking to use it for one of your itterative attack rather than instead of. i just don't like feats that suddenly become obsolete rather than you getting something more interesting instead.
anyhow, back with the playtest report (apologies its a little delayed, they actually expected me to work at work today!)
Encounter 4
having found the gem / key (and spent 10 minutes looting the shrine despite the fact it was a one off game - once a PC....) they went back to free the tall angelic being / annis
the annis (CR6) went to grapple the gnome who was closest, didn't look a combatant and possible tastiest. So new grapple rules. Annis rolled a 6 and then i had to calculate the CMB on the fly (not too difficult but the first time i had to change anything from the MM) and only just grabbed the gnome (with his -'ve CMB (size pen + strength pen). although a 6 wasn't brilliant, for a creature with improved grab to only just grab a small creature seemed a little strange, especially as it was a surprise action (no bonus there - he might have been denied dex but that doesn't affect grapple at all)
The annis has the special ability to make 2 claw attacks at whatevers been grappled which seemed to make sense to carry that over - though poor rolling meant she only got one hit before the party charged in. no AoO when grappling (Both attacker and attackee gain the grappled condition) so they surrounded her and started hacking away. quick query on wether the gnome was dragged into the square with the annis (assume not since not mentioned) and then the cleric cast sanctuary on the gnome.. again no AoO.
Annis fails will save so drops gnome. now on 1/2 hits and cornered so casts fog cloud to make a run for it, but barbarian and fighter are within 5' so she's dead before the end of the round.
new grapple was quick but i'm not sure the grappler gets much advantage from doing it. she got all the penalties for being grappled, but none of the advantages. no longer tactic of choice for giant types i think.....
cont.
Encounter 5 (3rd time i've attempted to post this...)
5 x shadows (~CR7) jump the dwarf as she was investigating 5 stone sarcophagi. 6 Str damage but then we got to see the other side of the channeling as all bar one failed their will save and legged it (I ruled they hid in their sarcophagi - seemed more appropriate than running through walls)
the break gave the cleric a chance to use domain power (lesser restoration) while the gnome readied some fireballs which took out a few of the shadows as they returned. Playing the 50% miss chance for incorporeals succeeded in making the shadows even scarier. I'm ambivalent about this 3.5E rule - its an extra dice roll but without it magic waepons go through incorporeals too quickly for them to be a threat.
At this stage the cleric player was definitely buzzing about not using up his spells on healing.
Encounter 6
1 spiked pit trap (40') CR5. was planned for the Barb, but the dwarf walked in, plummeted, spikes bounced of AC. climbed back out with aid of rope. Bit of an anti-climax really.
cont
Encounter 7 and mop up
Gargantuan Monstrous Centipede (CR6) was the last encounter. poison was the scary thing for the players which is why i am absolutely convinced you have to keep ability damage in the game.
not too difficult to charge, take one AoO and then mosh in 2 rounds.
At this stage Real Life intervened and we had to wind up. looking at the hp / spells etc the party thought they could would had one more encounter before even thinking about resting.
So general conclusions
power creep seems to be in durability rather than raw power. both warrior types had toughness, cleric had maxed the channeling healing & had the ubiquitous cure light wand. It wasn't that they could deal with tougher encounters that much better, just that they could survive longer
Backwards compatibility wasn't an issue as i only had to convert one stat (CMB) and then just used the highest of spot / listen for perception etc
7 encounters from CR5 - 9 for a 6th level party left them wanting one more - thats almost twice the guidelines from the DMG. I actually like this change as the spell casters still have the challenge of mananging their big spells, but the at will stuff means they always have something to do
Channeling very very good mechanic - cannot stress that enough! (And as DM, just waiting for an evil cleric to throw it back at them...)
Barbarians rage points nice idea, but can be burnt through very quickly if you use the big powers. Maybe some form of rationing of powers per rage, or some free points per rage to encourage multiple raging rather than Nova.
Only thing we didn't like was darkvision as a power. we thought tremorsense would be more appropriate for a barbarian used to relying on his senses and would differentiate from standard racial abilities
We were wondering why the sorcerer didn't get cantrips at will, but i've seen another thread addressing that so just need to be a little clearer in the description for alpha 3
bloodlines generally balanced in that it took the sorcerer player ages to make his decision.....
we were playing in 3.5E's sweet spot at 6th level, so the next time we get together (probably after alpha 3) we'll try 1-5-10-15 or similar
I agree with you on the issue of expensive rage powers. The weaker ones should definitely be made cheaper (1/2 or 1/3 cost) or made more worthwhile.
I also agree with Overhand Chop. Once you get Backswing, you'll probably never use Overhand Chop again, and once you get Devastating Blow (and a x4 critical weapon), you'll rarely use Backswing again.
Only thing we didn't like was darkvision as a power. we thought tremorsense would be more appropriate for a barbarian used to relying on his senses and would differentiate from standard racial abilitiesDo you mean Tremorsense or Blindsense?
I disagree except for this - Blindsense is less useful than Darkvision, and so keeps Darkvision kind of neat. Plus, if you really wanted to, you could make the ungodly version by ramping it up to Blindsight. Still, the Blindsense version would be kinda neat in that it keeps Barbi prodding around in the dark.
Also, if you switch it over to Blindsense, I would agree with people for making it cheaper.
Reading the differences again i do like the feel of blindsense / blindsight as a progression, and the description (using acute senses) seems to fit much better for a barbarian. Blindsense still has the swing and miss element but it does give the barbarian an edge in fogs that can differentiate it from the normal low light / darkvision that every other race has..
so instead of low-light vision & darkvision you could have
Blindsense - 1 point / round
Blindsight - 2 pts (prereq Blindsense)
low points cost as they don't add a lot to the raging (except finding something to hit)