CMB: Grappling the Beast


Combat & Magic


Something I just noticed looking at the Alpha rules again:

The new feat "Agile Maneuvers" lets you use the DEX bonus for your CMB instead of STR, but within the 3.5 OGL there is the common feat "Weapon Finesse" which applies the DEX bonus to attack rolls with lt. weapons, rapier, whip, spiked chain, natural weapons.
Since the CMB is an "attack roll", do these 2 feats apply your Dex bonus twice??? (I don't know if that's TOO overpowered for 2 feats, but it's very unclear/non-intuitive...) It seems like both of these feats could be rolled into one, replacing the old "Weapon Finesse"/ new "Agile Maneuvers" with "Combat Finesse", applying your DEX bonus to attacks with appropriate weapons AND CMB's....???

Re-reading the CMB rules, I also thought that given the usual AoO opponents get before the CMB is resolved, feats which allow you to allocate your BAB towards your own AC (Combat Expertise, etc.) would have a major net positive, by increasing your chances you won't receive any damage at all, thus giving you a much easier CMB penalty (while saving your own hit points to boot).
Would it also make sense to let the "Improved Combat Maneuvers" and/or "Defensive Training" feats, give you a bonus to your AC for AoOs resulting from your own Combat Maneuvers???

It'd also be nice to have at least a bit written on how REACH weapons interact with CMB, since if you have reach advantage over your opponent they can't get an effective AoO.
...But if someone is using a longspear to Bull Rush someone, thereby avoiding an AoO, wouldn't it make sense to apply the weapon's damage as normal, in addition to the Bull Rush? If that is allowed, it brings back the opponent's armor into the equation...
So perhaps using a single roll, there would be an AC to-hit(damage), and a CMB difficulty (to cause X effect, i.e. Bull Rush)... Of course, of the Combat Manuevers, only Bull-Rush and Sunder(Armor) really apply body hits which might threaten damage...

I like the general direction CMB is going, but I think it has to be spelled out and these things cleared up. If it's done right, if CMB is simple & intuitive, yet flexible & dynamic, I think it can really liven up play and make it more fun all-around. And I think it's an important aspect of game balance - Things like the combined attack/CMB-Bull Rush/Sunder Armor really seem like Fighter/Barbarian/Paladin material, which helps give a little more to those classes in relation to the caster classes.

Liberty's Edge

See here for my take on Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers.

Liberty's Edge

Quandary wrote:

It'd also be nice to have at least a bit written on how REACH weapons interact with CMB, since if you have reach advantage over your opponent they can't get an effective AoO.

...But if someone is using a longspear to Bull Rush someone, thereby avoiding an AoO, wouldn't it make sense to apply the weapon's damage as normal, in addition to the Bull Rush? If that is allowed, it brings back the opponent's armor into the equation...
So perhaps using a single roll, there would be an AC to-hit(damage), and a CMB difficulty (to cause X effect, i.e. Bull Rush)... Of course, of the Combat Manuevers, only Bull-Rush and Sunder(Armor) really apply body hits which might threaten damage...

I don't think you use a weapon for a Bull Rush maneuver as you would for an attack. You can't Bull Rush someone from a distance. Unless you have Improved Bull Rush, the opponent will have an AoO against you.

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