I can't help but wonder how much all the moves being made by Paizo, Necromancer, and Kobold Quartely among others is becoming widely known. Are these amazing business moves being watched only by those frequenting these boards?
Are gamers only getting excited or supporting the companies and giving them a boost to sales?
Could OGL 3.5, especially Pathfinder, become a true competitor to WOTC and 4.0?
Inquiring minds want to know!
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I can't help but wonder how much all the moves being made by Paizo, Necromancer, and Kobold Quartely among others is becoming widely known. Are these amazing business moves being watched only by those frequenting these boards?
Are gamers only getting excited or supporting the companies and giving them a boost to sales?
Could OGL 3.5, especially Pathfinder, become a true competitor to WOTC and 4.0?
Inquiring minds want to know!
Yes, a little, and are you kidding?
From Paizo's perspective the answers are:
Are these amazing business moves being watched only by those frequenting these boards?
No. The retailers we spoke to at GAMA Trade Show confirmed that this is much more than an online discussion. It's being talked about in game stores, at the game table, and generally everywhere gamers are to be found.
Are gamers only getting excited or supporting the companies and giving them a boost to sales?
They are supporting us with their dollars and all indications show us that making our stand with Pathfinder RPG has increased subscriptions, sales, and paizo.com sign-ups/traffic tremendously.
Could OGL 3.5, especially Pathfinder, become a true competitor to WOTC and 4.0?
We think it can but we're not looking to do so as an active strategy. We want to provide a home for folks who feel 3.5 is their final edition. If providing that home makes it a competitor then that's the result of our strategy not the focus.
Personally, I like the "World Domination" strategy.
Does the Necromancer Games partnership still make sense in light of these developments?
I mean, I love both companies (and part of the reason I'm staying 3.5 is *because* I have so many Necromancer products I don't want invalidated with a new ruleset), but if Pathfinder is to grow, why should Paizo support WotC/4E as well - even if only indirectly through NG?
(Or is such a discussion premature?)
Does the Necromancer Games partnership still make sense in light of these developments?
I mean, I love both companies (and part of the reason I'm staying 3.5 is *because* I have so many Necromancer products I don't want invalidated with a new ruleset), but if Pathfinder is to grow, why should Paizo support WotC/4E as well - even if only indirectly through NG?
(Or is such a discussion premature?)
I can think of quite a few reasons personally (although I'm sure they can speak for themselves):
1) As Joshua said above, competing against 4e as a rule set is a side effect, not the primary driver, because...
2) ... because the impression I get is that Paizo is flipping the traditional RPG business model around. A company like WotC focuses on driving core rule book sales (as made even more apparent by releasing "core rule books" every year). Adventures and other supplements (although nice to get some profit out of as well) are largely used to drive sales of the core rules. Since Paizo is the dominant adventure producer, they appear to be selling core rules to support their adventure lines. So, if it sells Pathfinder APs, that's what matters, not "our rules sell more than their rules".
3) Paizo has A LOT of goodwill built up. Cutting off Necromancer and 4e support in order to boost Pathfinder RPG would most likely have the opposite effect. When a company like Paizo has that much good PR built up, a negative hit on it can be painful. Someone like WotC, which has a mixed record, can get away with "Hey, we need to do what helps our business. Sorry!" with a smaller hit (or at least WotC hopes they can).
4) Pathfinder RPG and 4e to a large degree separate (but overlapping, of course) audiences. The systems are different enough, that I think people are going to go with the rules they want. If Paizo doesn't support Necromancer or have a 4e product line, I don't see WotC losing too many customers because those who would be swayed probably already are. They are two very different and fun rule sets with some very loyal supporters, and I think whether Paizo supports Necromancer or not won't shift the balance very much. (Announcing Pathfinder RPG probably did the majority of any balancing shifting Paizo could do.)
5) As Lisa Stevens mentioned in another thread, I believe, for growth there are still many avenues. A major one she mentioned was WotC recruits new gamers to 4e, they play 4e for a while then see Pathfinder APs & RPG as a more complex system (in a good way), and move over to it. Sort of a D&D to AD&D move. Makes a lot of sense to me, and I can see why they aren't trying to brand it as 3.5 or anything that would indicate it's a step back in editions, but are instead branding it as something new. Smart move.
6) (Almost forgot, so edited it in) Paizo can make money off of 4e. :) Selling 4e products, whether just with Necromancer or on their own as well, can make Paizo money and keep them known among the 4e gamers. Since, as noted above, I don't think 4e sales will really dig into Pathfinder RPG sales much at all, they why cut off another potential revenue stream? (I could see not going down that road for reasons of resource management and keeping staff focused, but not because "it supports the competition.")
So, it's an awfully complex picture where "supporting Necromancer is supporting our competition" is probably too short-term and limited in view.
But that's just my guess on the question (since I actually happened to be thinking about this stuff this morning on the way to work for whatever reason).
Beyond the good decisions and the best products we've seen for years, Paizo has one other very excellent thing going for them:
...A great relationship with their customers. These boards are a good example of that. They participate in the discussions here with us. They answer emails. The listen to what their customers want rather than tell us what we need.
There seems to be more of a void between WOTC and their customers.
And I guess at this point I should say, "Thanks Paizo."
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...A great relationship with their customers.
Paizo doesn't have a great relationship with their customers.
They have a PHENOMENAL relationship with their customers. I have posted questions of relatively trivial importance on these boards and people like Erik Mona, Mike McArtor, James Jacobs, Jason Buhlman, Joshua Frost, and Nicholas Logue have responded. In less than an hour. Even Steve Jackson Games, which prides itself on a very friendly relationship with their fans, doesn't do that. Paizo has the production values of a major games publisher (like WotC or White Wolf) and the customer relations of a teeny-tiny indie games studio. It's not hyperbole or exaggeration to say that they are probably the best game studio operating today. They have earned every drop of customer loyalty they enjoy, and continue to earn it daily with solid product and staggeringly-accessable customer service.
Edit: Gericko, please don't take the opening lines of this post as a slam or anything. I agree with you, man, you just gave me a great springboard. Paizo customer goodwill FTW! :)
Indeed, Paizo has great customer service and Pathfinder seems the gamerly (new word? gamist perhaps) way to go for a company that cares about their customers and its products. Now, if only Paizo would publish some AD&D material my joy would be complete!
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Does the Necromancer Games partnership still make sense in light of these developments?
I mean, I love both companies (and part of the reason I'm staying 3.5 is *because* I have so many Necromancer products I don't want invalidated with a new ruleset), but if Pathfinder is to grow, why should Paizo support WotC/4E as well - even if only indirectly through NG?
(Or is such a discussion premature?)
Not only what others said...
But there may be a time when Paizo does decide to go to 4th edition, Keeping the relationship with Necromancer they will have someone that will have an experience 4th that could help them in thier edition change if they ever did decide to go that route in a few years..
I'm fairly certain that, while they may do something for 4E, Paizo will have learned the lesson that to depend on another company is too dangerous to base your entire business plan around. (Especially another company that seems to change how it feels about licenses often.)
The irony, though, is that if WotC has released its game license back in October and had let Paizo see the rules drafts, that it's quite likely that Paizo would be fully 4E right now.
I'm glad that didn't happen.
I'm fairly certain that, while they may do something for 4E, Paizo will have learned the lesson that to depend on another company is too dangerous to base your entire business plan around. (Especially another company that seems to change how it feels about licenses often.)
The irony, though, is that if WotC has released its game license back in October and had let Paizo see the rules drafts, that it's quite likely that Paizo would be fully 4E right now.
I'm glad that didn't happen.
same here, I canceled my subscription after the first AP, and when the continuation of 3.5 and the Pathfinder RPG was announced I immediately signed up again.
Plus I added a few more subscriptions as well.
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The irony, though, is that if WotC has released its game license back in October and had let Paizo see the rules drafts, that it's quite likely that Paizo would be fully 4E right now.
I'm glad that didn't happen.
In the end..I think it comes down more to not the License.. but to the rules..
For them to Move to 4E would require too much of a story change, because of WotC decision not to use many of the classes/races and change the magic system so drastically from 3.5 Core..
The new rules by them selfs are just fine and I am sure Paizo could have worked with any new license that came out.
But the new rules just don't play well with Worlds based on 3.5
I figure after kind of cruising these boards, I would put my two cents in. I see that quite a few gamers here are orignally FR refugees. I will have to count myself out of that group. I am very much Wilderlands of High Fantasy. That puts me heavily invested in Necromancer published goodies. Someone over at the Necro borads turned me onto Pathfinder adventures. I myslef like the stan-alone-prug-n-play materials, but I have found a few Pathfinders I really like. The Stone Giants are just too cool.
I dont think d20 (3rd party publishers) are taking over, but it is awful good to see someone take a stand and do something. We all heard the announcement that 4e was on the way. Then the 3pp's stopped the presses. Stuff we were told about, promised, teased with, came to a stop. They were waiting to find out about the license. A license that still has not arrived. Cant publish 3.5 stuff if it might hurt 4e sales right? Arg....still have a nasty taste in my mouth. What I like here, is the discussion without being lambasted for liking and enjoying my 3.5 library of D&D goodness.
I dont see the d20 companies taking over. I see a split that is widening. If Paizo will support 3.5 (Pathfinder) I am on board for sure. If someone here ask me what i would like to see, I would answer with some old-school flavored stand-alone adventures I can easily drop into my 3.5 Wilderlands Campaign....or any campaign.
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I wouldn't say that the D20/OGL companies are taking over, but I would say that Paizo has really taken advantage of the current market dynamics. They have built up a great relationship with their customer base, they have several income different streams, they put out quality products, and they are including the fans in the development process of their new flagship product (PF RPG). This all works in their favor. I am not sure that their sales numbers will surpass WotC, but they should be able to carve out a respectable market share this space.
As a fan, I am very excited about their upcoming launches. I am also excited about their partnership with Necromancer. I hope that the partnership will yeild great results, as I think this will ultimately be good for gamers.
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I guess I'll add my two cents worth of opinion: d20 companies aren't taking over. The market is splitting up a bit more.
Before 3rd Edition, there was TSR/AD&D and then everybody else. TSR was the largest producer of gaming product, and it dominated the market. Then, it went under and WotC bought them out. 3rd Edition came along and WotC dominated the market, and so you had 3rd Edition and all the d20 companies. Other publishers made their way supporting 3rd Edition and 3.5.
And then OSRIC slipped in.
Look at all the flavors of D&D being played today:
Grognards still playing AD&D 1st and 2nd Edition and possibly enhancing their gaming with OSRIC product
D&D 3.x (including 3.0 and 3.5), d20 and 3.5 OGL
Hackmaster 4th EditionSoon, there will be a very strong base of players on D&D 4th Edition and Pathfinder RPG.
I don't think it will be just D&D 4th Edition and the other guys anymore.
I think that there will be equally valid factions of players playing all these flavors more prominently. It's not like we're talking about competition among the publishers, but more like publishers producing material that appeals to specific audiences.
This is all true, but don't forget that games like GURPS, Rifts, Hero system, and World of Darkness have a good-sized market share as well.