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A look at Epic Destinies from the 4th Edition Player's Handbook.
For those with no care to link:
What does that mean?
Your epic destiny is a few things, actually. While it’s true that your epic destiny allows you to bend, break, or ignore some of the laws of the universe, an epic destiny isn’t merely about acquiring even more power. After all, you continue to gain more and more powerful class powers as you rise toward 30th level, some of which are nearly as fantastic as those your epic destiny provides.
You see, what your epic destiny is really about is defining your place in the universe. Your epic destiny is the mythic archetype your character aspires to achieve. Once you reach 21st level, the greatness you always knew you were destined for is no longer theoretical; it is actual.
As you continue to gain levels, working toward 30th, the challenges you take on become larger and more significant, potentially affecting nations, worlds, or even the universe itself. Thus, your epic destiny shapes your lasting impact on the campaign and helps determine how people forever afterward remember and talk about you.
Did you defeat Atropus, the roving World Born Dead? Did you defeat the Hulks of Zoretha when they rose unlooked for in the ancient wastes? Did you stem the catastrophic tide of Pandorym when it revived enough to begin eating even the gods?
Yes, perhaps you did.
And once you’ve achieved so much, your epic destiny allows you a way to gracefully step aside, to make room for new generations of heroes to take up the fight. After all, your immortality is assured, whether in myth or in actuality (depending on the destiny you chose). Upon completing your epic quest, where you faced the greatest challenges of your career, your destiny describes why, after so many adventures, you finally take your leave of the mortal realm… and where you go next.
--Bruce Cordell
Your epic destiny describes the mythic archetype you aspire to achieve. Some characters have a clear epic destiny in mind from the moment they began adventuring, while others discover their epic destiny somewhere along the way.
Most people don’t ever come close to achieving an epic destiny. Whether they simply failed in their journey, or whether the universe never intended them to gain such lofty heights, is unknown and unknowable.
Your epic destiny sets you apart from such individuals—you know you’re destined for greatness and you have every opportunity to achieve it.
Extraordinary Power
Compared to a class or paragon path, an epic destiny grants few benefits, but those it bestows are exceptional. Certain laws of the universe work differently for you—and some don’t apply at all.
Your race, class, path, and other character elements might define what you can do, but your epic destiny defines your place in the universe.
Immortality
Each epic destiny defines your lasting impact on the world or even the universe: how people forever afterward remember and talk about you.
Some people achieve lasting fame or notoriety without achieving an epic destiny, but that’s a fleeting thing. Inevitably, those people are forgotten, lost in the murky depths of history. Your epic destiny ensures that your name and exploits live on forever.
The End
Perhaps most important, your epic destiny describes your character’s exit from the world at large (and more specifically, from the game) once you’ve completed your final adventure. It lays out why, after so many adventures, you finally take your leave of the mortal realm—and where you go next.
Gaining an Epic Destiny
Epic destiny abilities accrue from 21st to 30th level. As shown on the Character Advancement table in Chapter 2, your epic abilities pick up where paragon path benefits leave off.
After gaining all other benefits of reaching 21st level (including class features, ability score increases, and the like), you can choose an epic destiny.
Epic destinies are broader in scope than a class or paragon path. Though most have certain requirements to enter, even these typically apply to a wide range of characters with various backgrounds, talents, and powers.
If you don’t choose an epic destiny at 21st level, you can choose one at any level thereafter. You retroactively gain all benefits of the epic destiny appropriate to your current level.
Fulfilling Your Epic Destiny
The “Immortality” feature of your destiny is not gained at 30th level. Instead, it is gained when you and your allies complete their Destiny Quest. This is described more thoroughly in the Dungeon Master’s Guide, but essentially, your Destiny Quest is the final grand adventure of the campaign, during which you face the greatest challenges of your characters’ careers.
This quest might actually begin before 30th level (in fact, most do), but the climax of the quest can only occur after all participants have reached 30th level. Upon completing your Destiny Quest, your adventuring career—and your life as a normal mortal being—effectively ends. Your DM might give your character a little time to put affairs in order before moving on, or it can occur spontaneously upon completion of the quest. Work with your DM to determine the appropriate timing based on your character, your destiny, and the quest.
Once you’ve completed your Destiny Quest and initiated your ascension to immortality, your character’s story has ended. He lives on in legend, but he no longer takes part in mortal events. Instead, it’s time to create a new group of adventurers and begin a new story.
Archmage
As the Archmage, you lay claim to being the world’s preeminent wizard.
Prerequisite: 21st-level wizard
Your lifelong perusal of grimoires, librams, tomes, and spellbooks has finally revealed the foundation of reality to you: Spells are each tiny portions of a larger arcane truth. Every spell is part of some far superior working, evoking just a minuscule fraction of that ultimate formula. As you continue your studies, you advance your mastery of spells so much that they begin to infuse your flesh, granting you a facility in their use undreamed of by lesser practitioners.
You are often called to use your knowledge to defend the world from supernormal threats. Seeking ever greater enlightenment and the magical power that accompanies it, you are at times tempted by questionable relics, morally suspect spells, and ancient artifacts. Your destiny remains yours to choose—will you be archmage or archfiend?
Immortality, of a Sort
Archmages are an idiosyncratic lot. There’s no telling what choices the preeminent wizard of the age will make when he has completed his destiny. The following section details a path several Archmages have walked, but your path might vary.
Arcane Seclusion: When you complete your final quest, you retreat from the world to give your full time and attention to the study of the ultimate arcane formula, the Demispell, whose hyperplanar existence encompasses all the lesser spells there ever were or ever will be.
To aid your study, you build a sanctum sanctorum. At your option, your retreat provides you complete seclusion, and thus could take the form of a tower lost somewhere in the Elemental Chaos. However, you might desire to retain a tie to the world, and thus build a sanctum with a connection to the world. In such a case, you might found a new order of mages for which you serve as the rarely seen High Wizard. Alternatively, you might found a school of magic, for which you serve as the rarely seen headmaster.
Regardless of your retreat’s physical form or temporal connection, your contemplation of the arcanosphere persists. As the years flow onward, your study of the fundamental, deep structure of the cosmos removes you from the normal flow of time. Eventually your material shell fades as you merge into the Demispell itself.
Thereafter, your name becomes tied to powerful spells and rituals used by lesser wizards.
Archmage Features
All Archmages have the following features.
Spell Recall (21st level): At the beginning of each day, choose one daily spell that you know (and have prepared today, if you prepare spells). You can use that spell two times that day, rather than only once.
Arcane Spirit (24th level): Once per day, when you die, you can detach your spirit from your body. In arcane spirit form, you heal to maximum hit points and gain the insubstantial and phasing qualities. You can cast encounter spells and at-will spells while in arcane spirit form, but you can’t cast daily spells, activate magic items, or perform rituals. If you die in arcane spirit form, you’re dead.
At the end of the encounter, after a short rest, your arcane spirit rejoins your body, if your body is still present. Your current hit point total is unchanged, but you no longer experience the other benefits and drawbacks of being in arcane spirit form.
If your body is missing, you will need other magic to return to life, but can continue adventuring in arcane spirit form if you like.
Archspell (30th level): Your comprehension of the ultimate arcane formula and of the spells that constitute it reaches a new threshold. Choose one daily spell that you know. You can now cast that spell as an encounter spell (rather than as a daily spell).
Archmage Power
Shape Magic Archmage Utility 26
You reach into the ebb and flow of arcane energy and pluck a spell you have already used out of the invisible tide, instantly recalling it to memory.
Daily
Standard Action Personal
Effect: You regain one arcane power you have already used.
I don't like the presumed end/level cap, and I don't like the idea that a PC is expected to exit the mortal world.
Granted, both of these are easily fixable from a fluff point a view, but D&D without rules beyond level 30 just isn't right. (And yes, I realize that very few people would bother to play that high anyway, but the fact that you can't just seems wrong.)
I see no problem with ending things at 30, since I never really get my players that high anyway.
Besides, Epic Level in 3.5 rapidly turns into Diablo 2. I wouldn't want to see the same thing here.
Granted, both of these are easily fixable from a fluff point a view, but D&D without rules beyond level 30 just isn't right. (And yes, I realize that very few people would bother to play that high anyway, but the fact that you can't just seems wrong.)
The idea is actually not new on D&D. OD&D Immortal Set, Rules Cyclopedia, and 2E High Level Campaign all suggested PCs to leave the mortal world after performing an epic quest and reaching the level cap.
The idea is actually not new on D&D. OD&D Immortal Set, Rules Cyclopedia, and 2E High Level Campaign all suggested PCs to leave the mortal world after performing an epic quest and reaching the level cap.
Yeah, but I don't like that a game of infinite possibilities has a level cap.
I'd rather it be uncapped and leave it to the game group to decide the end.
Heck, even if the benefits were minimal (ala 1E) where you only get 2 hp/level and minor power increases, I'd be more accepting.
Really, to use 3E terms, if epic levels were simply: +1d10 hp and 1 feat/level that would be sufficient.
Somebody at WOTC has MAD LOVE for the BECM Immortal set...Seriously, read through this and the 3.5 EPIC destiny article and tell me if you don't swear you're reading the Immortal Boxed set again.
All types of win there.
That was my first thought when I saw these excerpts, and I must say it has really excited me.
I agree somewhat with DaveMage, that there doesn't nessisarily need to be hard cap to the game at level 30, but I think Dave has already given himself a solution. Just allow folks to continue leveling up with only very minor boosts in power (a few bonus hit points, but no new powers.)
But, i can't help think how much fun you can have fullfilling the epic destinies show so far. Each one is mythic, intresting, and you only really need one player to take an epic destiny to end a campaign this way. That player leaves the world to become immortal, and the rest contniue ti live thie rlives, falling into legend and myth but not at the same level of the PC who fulfilled his Epic destiny.
I see no problem with ending things at 30, since I never really get my players that high anyway.
I'm not trying to say you are wrong in any way.
But bear tn mind that the "speed" goal of 4th Edition is to get to 30th in about a year. (DM's don't have to follow this.)
So, WotC is looking to have games "rollover" about once a year.
I see no problem with ending things at 30, since I never really get my players that high anyway.I'm not trying to say you are wrong in any way.
But bear tn mind that the "speed" goal of 4th Edition is to get to 30th in about a year. (DM's don't have to follow this.)
So, WotC is looking to have games "rollover" about once a year.
Isn't that about the same rate of advancement as 3E? Most of my campaigns get pretty close to 20th playing 1/week for a year (they never actually GET to 20th, but that is due to dying/level draining/more than standard party/holidays/people missing)
Cheers! :)
Ok I hated this preview. Too much fluff for no reason and certainly not enough crunch.
Along with archmage, the only thing that I enjoyed was that the philosophy of epic levels seems to be similar to classic fantasy books take on very powerful individuals.
Great article. I've never gotten a group past, well...12th-level, but I know there are a few groups out there that manage to push 20th routinely. Capping the game at 30 seems perfectly fine, since post 20 I have a hard time imagining what sorts of things will actually challenge the group, and spells just get wonky.
If they can compress the action and excitement of epic play into levels 21 -30, then I'm fine with an "official" stopping point, though that doesnt mean that other groups cant continue to escalate things as far as they can manage it (especially with a formula as simple as +1/2 levels to most things).
Anyway, epic destinies are to me a lot like a continuation of your paragon path, but dont actually overshadow your true class. This is something that I really like about 4th Edition: even the "base" classes are useful through the course of the game. With paragon paths, epic destinies, and multiclassing the fact that you cant take two base classes doesnt bother me in the slightest. Thats a lot of flexibility without the complexity or abuse.
From the sounds of the Archmage, this is how Bigby and Mordenkainen did it.
Paragon paths and Epic Destinies seem like watered down Prestige Classes to me.
Prestige classes are gone. You could say that paragon paths and epic destinies are the new prestige class, except they dont replace your class: they add to it.
Basically, if you are a wizard, you are a wizard 'til the end. You arent going to prestige out of it into a better class, such as mage of the arcane order later. You'll pick up a paragon path at 11th-level, attach the benefits, and then do the same at 21st-level when you pick your epic destiny.
Of course, you are also free to multiclass to pick up some other powers to round your character out.
Isn't that about the same rate of advancement as 3E?
Yes and no.
Yes, that is the so-called planned timeline by WotC.
No, that is very rarely the pace people I talk with expect.
When Crowheart stated he had no problem with this, I imagined he was like the folks in my area that wouldn't have a problem with this. And that is because they expect 20th level (3.X speed) to take 5, 10, maybe even 15 years of time.
Perhaps I inferred too much into Crowhearts post, but I thought I should point that out for anyone thinking "forcing the character to retire after X years of play isn't a bad thing." They might want to readjust their thinking when dealing with those that don't use their "optional" timeline.
Isn't that about the same rate of advancement as 3E?Yes and no.
Yes, that is the so-called planned timeline by WotC.
No, that is very rarely the pace people I talk with expect.
When Crowheart stated he had no problem with this, I imagined he was like the folks in my area that wouldn't have a problem with this. And that is because they expect 20th level (3.X speed) to take 5, 10, maybe even 15 years of time.
Perhaps I inferred too much into Crowhearts post, but I thought I should point that out for anyone thinking "forcing the character to retire after X years of play isn't a bad thing." They might want to readjust their thinking when dealing with those that don't use their "optional" timeline.
I don't believe anybody can be "forced" to retire after a certain time. From my experience, time needed to reach a certain level depends more on DM tastes than anything else. Control the rate of advancement is simply too easy.
On my campaigns, PCs always took more time to advance a new level than the 3E "expected time" (about 3 sessions). I had a campaign that took about 40 sessions to reach level 9 (note: they started on level 3). In other hand, I know lots of groups where PCs advance a level per session.
A good thing of 4E is that DMs will feel more motivated to start the campaign at 1st-level. My groups always start at level 3-5 because we find the lower levels rather uninteresting.
I liked the feel of this.
It's always been an option to "turbo-charge" a player (or all of them) but having some suggested rules (I'll probably go the 12-20 version, rather than 21-30) gives some added punch to an ascending demigod, potential Slayer, or other "cool" character concept.
As I've said, this could always be done, and as I'm still wondering whether to play 4e, this doesn't change my opinion. But it's cool.
See, to me this seems halfway.
If you're going to say the 21-30 epic levels put you at Raistlin/Xagyg/Myrlund/Zuoken levels, why not jsut put out rules for full blown 'how to become a god'?
Based on the 3.5 Epic Destinies from a Dragon article, I fully expect one of the Epic Destinies you choose will be "become a god". But that is just one choice (I suspect we'll have maybe a dozen to pick from at release, with more probably being included over time).
Cheers! :)
See, to me this seems halfway.
If you're going to say the 21-30 epic levels put you at Raistlin/Xagyg/Myrlund/Zuoken levels, why not jsut put out rules for full blown 'how to become a god'?
As David says, you should go an read the Dragon artical about Epic Destinies in 3.5, which detailed six or seven Epic destinies that will be coming out in 4th edition in a format that works for 3.5
Demigod is indeed one of the destinies, along side things like the Artificer, who becomes so intimatly intwined with the most powerful magic items that they forge a series of power items and put their essence into them, thus become a single or series of linked artifacts like the Rod of Seven Parts, the Nine Rings of the Nazgul, or even the One ring.
Other destinies include things like The Sleeper that waits, where a player becomes the aincent hero destined to save the world from Ragnorok (if they can be woken again), or a mythical legend who becomes such common knowledge that they become folk lore itself.
In each case, the player's legend becomes a part of the setting, providing the players the ability to interact with their old characters as the myths and legends they have become.
Isn't that about the same rate of advancement as 3E?Yes and no.
Yes, that is the so-called planned timeline by WotC.
No, that is very rarely the pace people I talk with expect.
When Crowheart stated he had no problem with this, I imagined he was like the folks in my area that wouldn't have a problem with this. And that is because they expect 20th level (3.X speed) to take 5, 10, maybe even 15 years of time.
Perhaps I inferred too much into Crowhearts post, but I thought I should point that out for anyone thinking "forcing the character to retire after X years of play isn't a bad thing." They might want to readjust their thinking when dealing with those that don't use their "optional" timeline.
This whole topic is the "This Goes To 11!!!" argument from Spinal Tap given form.
(1) A god like moradin is stated out to be a 37th level solo creature, as per a design diary release a few weeks ago. Orcus, the most powerful demon lord, is a 33rd level solo creature. Therefore, the laws of the universe basically stop at 30th level. They needed to pick an arbitrary stop point, and 30th level sounded good to them. They could have picked 40th or 50th, but they didn't feel the need to expand the game that far.
(2) Giving players the "ability" to play the game at 40th level is a farcical aspect of 3rd edition- Sure you can play a 40th level character in a technical sense, but the game mechanics had been thrown out the window many, many floors down. By the time you got to 40th level you were so far beyond the greater powers of the multiverse that playing at such a level was a joke.
(3) Players that expect to play in the same campaign for 5+ years are very lucky and very few and far between. I don't know any players I've ever met who have lasted in the same campaign for more than 2 years, and they didn't meet very often at all. Wizards modeled D&D's progression in 3.5e so that an average group in an average campaign (which lasts roughly a year) can reach 20th level and play with all the goodies in the PHB. Clearly, disenchanter, you know people that break this mold- that's great for them, but they're in a tiny minority. Peruse the official boards for the past five years and pick out how many people complained that D&D doesn't support groups that play weekly for more than a years per campaign- you simply won't find many. Modeling the game to cater to the one year campaigns AND the five year campaigns is very, very difficult to do without stiffing one or the other. When one is stiffed, it has to be, by necessity, the smaller group- which sucks, but it's a fact of life. They can always halve or quarter the experience gain- voila! A four year trek to 30th level.
Well said Puggins. Better than I could have said myself!
Cheers! :)
I'm just glad that the game was redesigned from the ground up with all those levels in mind, instead of attaching epic play later, almost as an afterthought.