Since polymorph absorbs armor, there needs to be a bigger natural armor boost to keep polymorphers from being squished. Since the spells are basically created with the intent that the user is going to go into melee, a little more AC would keep them from being smashed. Even with a d6 HD and favored class, a lone wizard isn't going to stand up to the punishment that an equal-CR opponent can dish out.
(Other than that, the polymorph changes are great.)
Since polymorph absorbs armor, there needs to be a bigger natural armor boost to keep polymorphers from being squished. Since the spells are basically created with the intent that the user is going to go into melee, a little more AC would keep them from being smashed. Even with a d6 HD and favored class, a lone wizard isn't going to stand up to the punishment that an equal-CR opponent can dish out.
(Other than that, the polymorph changes are great.)
If only there were a class that had both Polymorph spells and spells that increased armor class (like Mage Armor + Shield or Barkskin)! Alas, that will remain a pipe dream forevermore...
:)
Seriously, I compared ACs between a 3.5 druid and a Pathfinder druid of the same level; the Pathfinder druid was maybe 1 or 2 points of AC lower. And if you're seriously saying that wizards need more and/or better AC boosters, I disagree.
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Since the spells are basically created with the intent that the user is going to go into melee...
Really...?
Nothing else can be done with these spells...?Defense and other noncombat abilities are great reasons for these spells.
It may not be the way you like to play but going into melee is not the only option. (I bet that the spells were not only intended that way too.)
Oh, I agree... no need to give the natural armor bonuses too.
Yeah, they're pretty much created to go into melee. Sure, there are other uses, but those aren't the primary ones.
I'm not sure that letting polymorph allow the wizard a few minutes of natural armor increase is going to wipe out the usefulness of spells like mage armor that last for hours and cost the wizard a measly 1st level slot at higher levels.
I think I agree on this one.
I'm not sure that letting polymorph allow the wizard a few minutes of natural armor increase is going to wipe out the usefulness of spells like mage armor that last for hours and cost the wizard a measly 1st level slot at higher levels.
I think I agree on this one.
Polymorph does give a natural armor bonus. Are you saying you want a larger bonus? If so, how much larger?
Well not big, but at least big enough to compensate for the loss of light natural armor.
Take the Beast shape 111 spell.
The net gain in AC (unless you are taking a AC penalty to your dex and you aren't using it already) will be +4.
At ninth level, that covers the loss of +1 studded leather armor, which is the armor that most of the NPC's listed in the DMG at 9th level would lose in the gaining of this spell.
I'm not that up one the Polymorph debate, but this wouldn't stack with amulets of natural armor, and do you lose ring of prot, shield and bracer bonuses as well? If so, you will break even with AC or lose some at 9th with this spell.
I'm not against AC climbing a bit during this spell, and in many cases it would do just the opposite...so yea I think a small boost would be in order, like a net-gain of +6 AC.
Either way it's not a biggie.
Here's the numbers I came up with:
A 5th-level Pathfinder fighter in fullplate +1 would have an AC of around 22, 25 with a shield +1:
* 10 base, +9 armor, +1 dex, +1 misc [natural armor or deflection], +1 armor training
A 5th-level Pathfinder melee wizard polymorphed into an eagle (via Beast Shape I) would have an AC of around 20, 24 with a Shield spell:
* 10 base, +4 mage armor, +3 dex, +1 natural armor, +1 size, +1 misc
Slightly worse, yes. But the wizard has access to Mirror Image and other extremely useful defensive spells and the fighter doesn't. Seems fair to me.
I'm not that up one the Polymorph debate, but this wouldn't stack with amulets of natural armor, and do you lose ring of prot, shield and bracer bonuses as well?
You keep all "constant bonuses" from melded magic items except for armor bonuses.
Yea, but with beast shape 3, a higher spell... a wizard would have (as a huge creature that is somewhat fit for combat):
10(base)+6 natural, +1 dex(was +3), +3 via magical items, -2 size.
18 vs 15 unbuffed...plus any natural armor amulets won't stack, and now cannot cast spells.
with a lack of combat feats(although the additional abilities do make up for a bit of this), a low attack progression, no multi-attack, fairly low HP, the lack of ability to change tactics and cast spells in the form, and a not that impressive AC, the combat value of this spell isn't worth the loss of a different spell.
Now perhaps the non-combat uses are, but I don't think the natural AC being 2 points higher would hurt, or effect that...that or maybe some leeway with ability alterations given the form but can't be higher than a specific total...that would be cool too, and give the caster back some versatility in this spell without making it overpowering.
I do appreciate the problems with the spell however, and am not against the change.
I would suggest that polymorph spell could let permenant item provided the "armor and shield enhencement bonuses" or "force effect armor bonus".
Basicaly, bracers of armor (base on mage armor) would still work and a +2 studded leather armor would still provide a +2 armor bonus (instead of +5).
I feel arcane casters usualy need their AC bonuses to participate in fight (without overshadow anyone) and other beneficiary of polymorphing would need to keep a bit of AC bonus to still hold their own.
It is interesting to note that shield bonuses aren't mentionned. I assume it's a oversight and they would be handle like armor otherwise it could be an interesting way to get another type of "allowed" bonus to AC in an alternate form but it would be uneven.
Yea, but with beast shape 3, a higher spell... a wizard would have (as a huge creature that is somewhat fit for combat):
10(base)+6 natural, +1 dex(was +3), +3 via magical items, -2 size.
18 vs 15 unbuffed...plus any natural armor amulets won't stack, and now cannot cast spells.
Natural armor amulets work fine -- Beast Shape gives a natural armor bonus, and an amulet of natural armor gives an enhancement bonus to your natural armor. So they stack.
I think we disagree on a fundamental point: I don't think that casting a single polymorph spell should make a wizard a good melee fighter. YMMV.
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I'm all for them keeping the slightly lower bonuses. There has always been this belief that with polymorph or a transformation spell that wizards can be better fighters then fighters and they shouldn't be.
Wizards are diverse in a lot of ways because of all their powers and can function in a wide variety of situations if they are properly prepared, but that doesn't mean they should function better then the person whose role they are taking in those situations. In there is a brawl coming up and the wizard is needed to join in this lets him, and it lets he be genuinely useful and close in power to the fighter. But the fighter is going to be better and thats how it should be is straight melee. The wizard still has plenty of other options he can do that fall into his range of abilities to give himself an advantage(mirror image, invisibility, ect).
-Tarlane
I don't think a bit more AC would put them at that level.
It might not even keep them from death.
I need to playtest it...haven't had time yet, but I'm pretty sure even with a mild AC boost, it won't turn the wizard into juggernaught.
I would also like to see some added versatility to the spell, but I kind of expect that, seeing is Mr. Bulmahn said it was a starting point.
I don't think a bit more AC would put them at that level.
It might not even keep them from death.
No, but Mirror Image and/or Blink will easily keep you from death; whether you're a couple of points of AC behind the fighter or not is irrelevant, IMO.
For what it's worth, here's my take on the polymorph spells:
Beast Shape I-II: A multi-purpose utility spell with some good abilities (flight, scent), some mediocre abilities (low-light vision, water breathing) and one ability that may not be attainable at all (is there an animal with darkvision?). If your character is built around melee, it adds some minor bonuses in combat (natural weapons, +2 Str/Dex).
Beast Shape III-IV: Same as I-II, but with some more good abilities (burrow speed, blindsense, tremorsense, faster flight) and some potentially dangerous save-or-die abilities (poison, breath weapon)
Elemental Body I-IV: A good mobility spell (flight, earth glide); you can even speak (and therefore cast spells). The last two give you some nice defensive abilities (immunity to criticals/sneak attack).
Form of the Dragon I-III: Decent mobility, spellcasting, and an O.K. melee buff. Breath weapon is mostly useless unless you're fighting hordes of weak creatures.
Giant Form I-II: If you can use Large/Huge-sized weapons and armor, it's a powerful melee buff that allows spellcasting.
Plant Shape I-II: Fairly useless unless you can find some plant with particularly deadly poison.
And how many mirror images can a wizard cast in his polymorphed form?
And how many mirror images can a wizard cast in his polymorphed form?
How many wizards would cast polymorph before mirror image if they wanted both?