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Introduction
I like the Weapon Training and weapon group ideas presented in the Alpha 2 fighter. They aim to make him a weapon, armour and feat master and give him bonuses and feats to further that goal. However, I think that some aspects of the Alpha 2 rules are not sufficiently linked with each other and are not integrated with another excellent Alpha 2 mechanism, i.e. combat maneuvers.
The updated Weapon Training and Weapon Mastery are tightly integrated. They allow the fighter to focus on a smaller number of weapon groups for increasing benefits to attack, damage and combat maneuver rolls. There is also a combat style benefit from training with the same melee or ranged weapon group.
Weapon Training (Ex)
Level 5
Upon reaching the 5th level, a fighter can select one group of weapons, as noted below.
Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and a +2 bonus on damage rolls (a).
Whenever he performs a combat maneuver with a weapon from this group, he gains a +2 bonus to his CMB (b).
Whenever a combat maneuver targets specifically a weapon from this group, the DC of the combat maneuver check is increased by 2. (c) The bonuses are halved to a minimum of +1 when the fighter wields an exotic weapon in which he is not proficient. (d)
Level 8 and beyond
Every 3 levels thereafter (8th, 11th, 14th, 17th and 20th), the fighter either gains additional training in a previously selected weapon group or chooses a new weapon group.
If he chooses to improve his training in a previously selected weapon group, the bonus on attack rolls increases by 1 and the bonus on damage rolls increases by 2. The bonus to his CMB when performing a combat maneuver with a weapon from this group increases by 2. The DC of combat maneuvers targeting a weapon from the group increases by 2. The bonuses are halved to a minimum of +1 when the fighter wields an exotic weapon in which he is not proficient.
If he chooses a new weapon group, he gains the benefits described at level 5.
Benefits from choosing the same group
When the fighter chooses the same weapon group twice, he gains the benefit of one of the following feats, even if he does not meet the prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting feat when fighting with two weapons from that group, Careful Targeting or Point Blank Shot.
When the fighter chooses the same weapon group three times, he gains the benefit of one of the following feats, even if he does not meet the prerequisites: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat when fighting with two weapons from that group, Rapid Shot or Exact Targeting.
When the fighter chooses the same weapon group four times, he gains the benefit of one of the following feats, even if he does not meet the prerequisites: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting when fighting with two weapons from that group, Manyshot or Pinpoint Targeting.
The benefits derived from selecting the same weapon group twice, three times or four times do not apply to exotic weapons.
Notes
Gaining additional training in one weapon group has no impact on different selected groups. (e)
Bonuses granted from overlapping groups do not stack. Take the highest bonus granted for a weapon if it resides in two or more groups.
Bonuses granted by Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus, and Greater Weapon Specialization stack with those granted by Weapon Training.
Example
A fighter chooses the Light blades weapon group at level 5. When wielding a rapier, he gains +1 to attack rolls, +2 to damage rolls, +2 to his CMB for the relevant combat maneuvers and +2 to the DC when defending against the relevant combat maneuvers. When wielding a kama, he gains +1 to attack rolls, +1 to damage rolls, +1 to his CMB for the relevant combat maneuvers and +1 to the DC when defending against the relevant combat maneuvers.
When he reaches 8th level, he chooses to carry on training with the Light blades weapon group.
When wielding a rapier, he gains +2 to attack rolls, +4 to damage rolls, +4 to his CMB for the relevant combat maneuvers and +4 to the DC when defending against the relevant combat maneuvers. When wielding a kama, he gains +1 to attack rolls, +2 to damage rolls, +2 to his CMB for the relevant combat maneuvers and +2 to the DC when defending against the relevant combat maneuvers.
Weapon Mastery (Ex)
At 20th level, the fighter chooses one weapon group in which he has received additional training at least twice over the course of his career. (f) He receives the normal benefits from applying Weapon Training to that group.
Additionally, any attacks made with weapons from that weapon group automatically confirm all critical threats and have their damage multiplier increased by 1 (a ×2 becomes a ×3 for example). He cannot be disarmed while wielding any weapon from this group. He can have that weapon sundered only on a natural 20 on the attacker's combat maneuver check. When defending against combat maneuvers with a weapon from the selected group, the damage inflicted by an attack of opportunity is doubled for the purpose of calculating the DC of the combat maneuver. These benefits do not apply to exotic weapons with which the fighter is not proficient.
Justification
a. Each level of Weapon Training is a combination of the benefits of Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization.
b. I think it's consistent to extend the benefits of training with a weapon group to combat maneuvers performed with weapons from the group. Having the fighter become better at hitting and damaging opponents without improving his disarming and sundering abilities is strange. In 3.5 Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization were factored in the disarm and sunder attack.
c. A complete training should also cover becoming better at resisting the maneuvers which target the weapons from the weapon group.
d. Weapon Training is less effective in the case of exotic weapons in which the fighter is not proficient.
e. I chose to refocus the benefits and eliminate the secondary benefits from previously selected groups. I think that the fighter should be able to focus on one or two groups and gain significant benefits in these groups instead of simultaneously gaining benefits in up to four groups.
f. I linked Weapon Training to Weapon Mastery. I find it odd for a fighter to train his entire career in Hammers, Flails, Light Blades and Crossbows then pick the longbow for Weapon Mastery. Weapon Mastery should be the crowning of the training and allow the fighter to become exceptionally proficient with a group of weapons which he has extensively used over the course of his career.
I think this recommendation is a little too good. If one chose to be good at only one weapon group, at level 20, he could have +6 to hit, +12 to damage and then could still choose to gain the weapon focus tree and weapon mastery feats for a total of +10 to hit, +18 damage!
I also think it is a little complex... not that one wouldn't understand it, but rather, it could be too cumbersome with all its little nuances... much like the current skill system in the 3.5 PHB.
I do however like some of the points you mentioned... that under Alpaha, you lose the benefits of weapon focus, etc. when you try to disarm or sunder. And also, how Weapon Mastery isn't neccessarily tied to weapons you have trained in through the course of your career.
Benefits from choosing the same group
When the fighter chooses the same weapon group twice, he gains the benefit of one of the following feats, even if he does not meet the prerequisites: Two-Weapon Fighting feat when fighting with two weapons from that group, Careful Targeting or Point Blank Shot.
When the fighter chooses the same weapon group three times, he gains the benefit of one of the following feats, even if he does not meet the prerequisites: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting feat when fighting with two weapons from that group, Rapid Shot or Exact Targeting.
When the fighter chooses the same weapon group four times, he gains the benefit of one of the following feats, even if he does not meet the prerequisites: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting when fighting with two weapons from that group, Manyshot or Pinpoint Targeting.
The benefits derived from selecting the same weapon group twice, three times or four times do not apply to exotic weapons.
Except for this part (because I think it's too much of a headache), I really like your idea!
At least much better than the momentary rules.While I agree to all points a) to e), we must see if e) is too "powerless" comparing to other abilities comming with the rangers Favored Enemy f.e.
But actually, I would rather see those work like your idea than the original "Choose one new AND improve one old".
In some other threads, there was the discussion about letting the Fighter (or the Ranger) change their Focus from one specialization to another every day (or every level, or...), and (maybe) increase the number of specializations he may simultaneously "use".
Hope, you understand my (german) english.
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Benefits from choosing the same group
When the fighter chooses the same weapon group twice, [...]Except for this part (because I think it's too much of a headache), I really like your idea!
At least much better than the momentary rules.
Yes, the progression is heavily inspired by the ranger's Combat style and therefore not so hot for the the sword and shield types. Two weapon specialists would already have taken TWF by level 8.
I'd still like to reward the fighters who dedicate themselves to one weapon group with something flavourful.
How about:
Each time the fighter chooses the same weapon group for the purpose of the Weapon Training ability, he gains a +2 bonus to Appraise and Craft checks relating to weapons from this weapon group. ?
While I agree to all points a) to e), we must see if e) is too "powerless" comparing to other abilities comming with the rangers Favored Enemy f.e.
But actually, I would rather see those work like your idea than the original "Choose one new AND improve one old".
I'm looking forward to checking out the updated new Alpha 3 ranger. I'm sure there will some cool stuff to look at.
In some other threads, there was the discussion about letting the Fighter (or the Ranger) change their Focus from one specialization to another every day (or every level, or...), and (maybe) increase the number of specializations he may simultaneously "use".
I'm not too hot about a floating specialization-based bonus. Considering how much time and training is required to become an expert at something, I'm struggling with the concept of daily or per level retraining, especially for physical abilities and target-based bonuses.
Hope, you understand my (german) english.
Loud and clear, sir. :-)
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I think this recommendation is a little too good. If one chose to be good at only one weapon group, at level 20, he could have +6 to hit, +12 to damage and then could still choose to gain the weapon focus tree and weapon mastery feats for a total of +10 to hit, +18 damage!
Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus would give a total of +8 at level 20. Am I missing something?
I also think it is a little complex... not that one wouldn't understand it, but rather, it could be too cumbersome with all its little nuances... much like the current skill system in the 3.5 PHB.
DracoDruid pointed out the feat benefits from choosing the same group as a too complex. Is there anything else you'd like to see streamlined?
I do however like some of the points you mentioned... that under Alpaha, you lose the benefits of weapon focus, etc. when you try to disarm or sunder. And also, how Weapon Mastery isn't neccessarily tied to weapons you have trained in through the course of your career.
Cheers. That's what I wanted to address in priority.
Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus would give a total of +8 at level 20. Am I missing something?
I'm including the Weapon Mastery feat from the PHB II for an additional +2 to hit and damage.
DracoDruid pointed out the feat benefits from choosing the same group as a too complex. Is there anything else you'd like to see streamlined?
I agree with DracoDruid on this as well. As far as streamlining it further, why are you duplicating the benefits of the fighter only feats, but keeping those feats in? Your ideas are very similar to mine in another thread.
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Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Focus would give a total of +8 at level 20. Am I missing something?I'm including the Weapon Mastery feat from the PHB II for an additional +2 to hit and damage.
I see. I'm limiting myself to OGL stuff, but that's a fair note.
DracoDruid pointed out the feat benefits from choosing the same group as a too complex. Is there anything else you'd like to see streamlined?
I agree with DracoDruid on this as well. As far as streamlining it further, why are you duplicating the benefits of the fighter only feats, but keeping those feats in? Your ideas are very similar to mine in another thread.
These feats are no longer fighter-only in my rejigged system: see
Rearranging Weapon Focus/Specialization and Combat Maneuvers|
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Tagged for a rejigging.
These are nice ideas; simple and understandable (though the feat is a bit complex as other mentioned).
I really like the emphasis on making you better with your weapons manuevers like disarm.
Personally, instead of just number crunching and add up a lot of bonuses - (perhaps adding some is fine, however), I'd like to see fighters have "manuevers" of their own that they can perform.
The combat manuevers are general and universal. The combat feats will be fighter freebees, but everyong can take them I'm sure.
I think fighters need manuevers that THEY can do: (1/day, or 1/encounter; increasing as fighter level advances etc - however it needs to be doled out).
Examples: (but certainly not an exhaustive list).
A_When an opponent attacks your fighter misses, and the fighter then attacks and hits his opponent, the fighter is essentially forcing his indominable will upon his lesser opponent. The Fighter after hitting his opponent and doing damage can choose to push his target back with a successful CMB check into any adjacent square away from him. (Straight back, back-diagonally to left or to right). What this does is: 1) if the fighter has a reach weapon it sets up the target for an AoO. 2) the fighter can opt to take a 5'step back (if he is still alotted it) and thus make the opponent unable to make a full-attack action if/when it approaches him on the next round.
B_Cause the multiplier of his weapon to be increased by 1 for a critical. (chosen after the confirmed critical roll is determined).
C_Automatically confirm a critical without having to roll.
D_Double Damage on a charge
E_Full attack after a charge
F_A penalty applied to casters attemping to cast defensively.
G_Continue to gain an extra 5' steps between attacks (up to max movement). Say 1 extra at 5th level, another at 10th, etc.
One need only look at the myriad prestige classes in so many of the splat books for class feature ideas of what a fighter could/should be able to do with special manuevers. Thus eliminating the desire to want to go into any of those prestige classes or simply eliminate them altogether.
As for weapon training - I think that the bonus should be transferrable to different types on a day by day ability. Otherwise, you strangle the fighters abilities by the exact equipment he has. The other classes special abiliities dont restrict their function based on the weapon they're using (class restrictions nonwithstanding). But a ranger gets his two-weapon fighting whether fighting with mace, sickle, sword, or dagger. His point blank counts for crossbow, longbow, sling, or javelin. A barbarians rage powers work just as well with greatsword or a spiked chain.
I applaud the notion that a fighter that has always relied on a greatsword, stumbles upon a Frost GreatAxe in an earlier treasure hoard, and opts to use that today since they've just stumpled upon a red-wyrms domain and all his magmin, and salamander mooks.
Robert
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These are nice ideas; simple and understandable (though the feat is a bit complex as other mentioned).
I really like the emphasis on making you better with your weapons manuevers like disarm.
Thanks for reading this Alpha 2 tweak. It's still a WIP and I'll be tying this much more to the tweaked CMs.
Personally, instead of just number crunching and add up a lot of bonuses - (perhaps adding some is fine, however), I'd like to see fighters have "manuevers" of their own that they can perform.
The combat manuevers are general and universal. The combat feats will be fighter freebees, but everyong can take them I'm sure.
I think fighters need manuevers that THEY can do: (1/day, or 1/encounter; increasing as fighter level advances etc - however it needs to be doled out).
Examples: (but certainly not an exhaustive list).
You should put that up in an Alpha 3 thread. Some of the ideas would make for very neat and flavourful BAB-based feats.
As for weapon training - I think that the bonus should be transferrable to different types on a day by day ability. Otherwise, you strangle the fighters abilities by the exact equipment he has. The other classes special abiliities dont restrict their function based on the weapon they're using (class restrictions nonwithstanding). But a ranger gets his two-weapon fighting whether fighting with mace, sickle, sword, or dagger. His point blank counts for crossbow, longbow, sling, or javelin. A barbarians rage powers work just as well with greatsword or a spiked chain.
I'm biased by the low-magic campaigns I run. A daily retraining is essentially magical and fine for spellcasters. A fighter has trained hundreds of hours with axes and I don't see this as transferable to another weapon group.
That's also the reason why I am quite unhappy with the current Weapon Training setup where the weapon group chosen at an earlier level is automatically bumped.
My tweak is based on the fighter being the ultimate weaponmaster, i.e. better with two or three groups of weapons than any other class can ever be.