The editorial on the Dark Elven Anti-Iconic reminded me of the things I like and dislike about the Drow.
Really there are only two things I don't like and would change;
1: The focus on Lolth alone, the other Dark elf deities deserve more attention.
2: The self-destructive aspect of the Drow. When you consider the low birth rate of elves, if Drow were to kill each other, they would have eleminated themselves by now.
Now how would I "revisit" them?
Consider Babalyon 5's Minbari. The Three castes; Warrior, Religion & Worker. Consider that Minbari do not kill Minbari because they belive in reincarnation and the only way a Minbari soul can truly die is by the hand of another Minbari.
Now imagine this applied to the Drow thru a mirror darkly.
Rule #1: Drow do not kill Drow. When the Dark Elves were sundered from True Elves, there was a finite number of Drow. There can never be more than that number because since Dark Elves are denied the Heavens, their souls reincarnate into the next generation. There is only one way for a Drow soul to be lost, death at the hands of another Dark Elf. Killing your own is the quickest way to becoming a Drider. This is also why renegade Drow are so feared, they are the only creatures in exisistence that can truly destroy the destiny of the Drow.
Drow society is based on Caste and position in the order of things. No Drow has to ask, they just "know" where they fit in, they just "know" who they can command and who they must obay. This is why Renegade Drow have so much trouble "fitting in", they cannot sense the order of things with other races.
There are three castes;
Relgion: Priests of Vhaeraun, Anti-Paladins of Selvetarm, Dark Druids of Ghaunadaur and Priestess of Lolth. Also, Sorcerers and Warlocks are also part of the Religious caste, as their magic is considered a divine gift.
Warriors: Fighters, Rangers, Scouts, Psychic Warriors and Lurks are most common. Wizards and Psions may be part of the Warrior caste if they Multi-Class into or from a combat oriented class. Monks are very rare as unarmed combat just doesn't make sense to Drow, you have a sword, use it!
Worker: Don't let the name fool you, this is the caste of Rogues, Bards and Assassins. Although they also serve Drow society as traders and craftsmen, they also are the diplomats those who would talk to the Drow meet. Most Wizards and Psions fall into this caste since they focus on crafting wonderous items and protecting Drow cities.
The Sado-Masochistic aspect of Dark Elves applies to everyone else. Most other creatures are just slaves, not worth more than the work they can do. Some creatures are mercenary tools, they can go where Drow cannot and they can deal with renegade Drow without upseting the Destiny of the Drow. A few creatures are respected allies; Dragons, Illithid and Aboleths must be delt with carefully. Drow are not stupid, they respect power and know better than to piss off those who could be a threat to their destiny.
Ironically, WOTC killed off most of the other drow deities in the Forgotten Realms because apparently some D&D players felt that drow needed to worship Lolth and only Lolth.
I was actually kind of disappointed when Drow of the Underdark essentially made drow monotheistic. I didn't expect FR deities to be pushed in the book, but a return to the classic Elder Elemental Evil, worshiping other demon lords, and such might have been nice.
I actually see the self destructive part of dark elves as being part of the iconic aspect of drow. If they don't kill each other off from time to time, why don't they rule the Underdark or why haven't they killed off all of the surface elves?
Drow have a shorter lifespan than other elves, so its entirely possible that they also have a higher birthrate than other elves as well. I know not everyone wants to use this as a source, but the FR Dark Elf trilogy seemed to indicate fairly large dark elven families.
The Minbari analogy is interesting, but really strikes me as too stable and static for drow. Drow are plotters and schemers, but they are also willing to take really big risks if the reward is big enough, and that is what has the potential to screw them over if they overextend themselves.
Ironically, WOTC killed off most of the other drow deities in the Forgotten Realms because apparently some D&D players felt that drow needed to worship Lolth and only Lolth.
I was actually kind of disappointed when Drow of the Underdark essentially made drow monotheistic. I didn't expect FR deities to be pushed in the book, but a return to the classic Elder Elemental Evil, worshiping other demon lords, and such might have been nice.
When did that happen? I've read the War of the Spider Queen and am currently reading The Lady Penitent series and all of the drow gods are still around. Does Drow of the Underdark say something different?
When did that happen? I've read the War of the Spider Queen and am currently reading The Lady Penitent series and all of the drow gods are still around. Does Drow of the Underdark say something different?
Spoiler for Storm of the Dead:
Um . . . read Storm of the Dead . . . and also, did you finish Sacrifice of the Widow yet? You might also glean a little bit from the comments about the Demonweb Pits in the Grand History of the Realms.
As for Drow of the Underdark, it basically just has a sidebar saying how silly it is that people think that drow worship anyone but Lolth, and then the only drow deity write up is on Lolth.
They even go so far as to make Zinzerana look like a hero deity that reinforces Lolth's dominance of the drow.
Don't get me wrong, there is some interesting material in the book, but it wasn't the direction I was hoping for.
Creative Director
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I can't help but note here that all of the FR gods are off-limits for us. That said... even if they weren't, I'd not use them. Golarion's drow hearken back to the good-old-days of "Vault of the Drow." They're scheming, manipulative demon worshipers, in other words. To throw out the names of a couple of the demons they worship: Nocticula, Cyth-V'sug, Baphomet, Abraxus, Haagenti, and Socothbenoth. There's going to be six more as well...
I can't help but note here that all of the FR gods are off-limits for us. That said... even if they weren't, I'd not use them. Golarion's drow hearken back to the good-old-days of "Vault of the Drow." They're scheming, manipulative demon worshipers, in other words. To throw out the names of a couple of the demons they worship: Nocticula, Cyth-V'sug, Baphomet, Abraxus, Haagenti, and Socothbenoth. There's going to be six more as well...
And that's why I'm looking forward to Second Darkness so much . . . heh.
same here my friend , same here
When did that happen? I've read the War of the Spider Queen and am currently reading The Lady Penitent series and all of the drow gods are still around. Does Drow of the Underdark say something different?
Spoiler for Storm of the Dead:
Nope, haven't read Storm of the Dead yet. Now, I'm really curious and not a little worried...
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Director of Brand Strategy
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I can't help but note here that all of the FR gods are off-limits for us. That said... even if they weren't, I'd not use them. Golarion's drow hearken back to the good-old-days of "Vault of the Drow." They're scheming, manipulative demon worshipers, in other words. To throw out the names of a couple of the demons they worship: Nocticula, Cyth-V'sug, Baphomet, Abraxus, Haagenti, and Socothbenoth. There's going to be six more as well...
I know of Socothbenoth from the Savage Tide campaign I'm playing now. Is this the same god of incest that has played a large role between
I know of Socothbenoth from the Savage Tide campaign I'm playing now. Is this the same god of incest that has played a large role between ** spoiler omitted **? And if so, is it not WotC IP?
A bunch of demon lord names are either Real World, or have been more or less allowed in various OGL sources. For example, you can find a lot of the demon lords from FC I listed in Green Ronin's Book of Fiends.
I think only the big gun, obviously created by TSR back in the day and actively used by WOTC demon lords (Graz'zt, Lolth, Fraz'urb'luu, etc.) are off limits completely.
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Creative Director
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A bunch of demon lord names are either Real World, or have been more or less allowed in various OGL sources. For example, you can find a lot of the demon lords from FC I listed in Green Ronin's Book of Fiends.
I think only the big gun, obviously created by TSR back in the day and actively used by WOTC demon lords (Graz'zt, Lolth, Fraz'urb'luu, etc.) are off limits completely.
Correct... mostly.
First off: Socothbenoth is indeed the demon lord of taboo and sexual perversion and other stuff; it's the same guy from Savage Tide. He's also from real-world mythology, and ALSO is detailed in Green Ronin's "Book of Fiends." In fact, almost all of the demon lords in D&D are from real world myth.
Furthermore, many of them appeared in the Tome of Horrors, and that means even their stats are open for us to use. This even includes old favorites like Orcus, Kostchtchie, and Fraz-Urb'luu. That said... we aren't going to adopt all of these guys in. Orcus and Kostchtchie are in Golarion, for example, but Fraz-Urb'luu is not. Even though we COULD use him, since he's in the Tome of Horrors, I've made the decision not to, since he's one of the demons that's very closely tied to the World of Greyhawk and taking him out of there is kind of lame. By the same extension, while Orcus IS a part of Pathfinder... he probably won't see MUCH play since he's got so much going on in WotC products.
We'll be focusing on other demon lords for now. And the ones that'll probably get the most attention in the next year are the ones the drow worship.
Particularly Abraxus.
Correct... mostly.First off: Socothbenoth is indeed the demon lord of taboo and sexual perversion and other stuff; it's the same guy from Savage Tide. He's also from real-world mythology, and ALSO is detailed in Green Ronin's "Book of Fiends." In fact, almost all of the demon lords in D&D are from real world myth.
Furthermore, many of them appeared in the Tome of Horrors, and that means even their stats are open for us to use. This even includes old favorites like Orcus, Kostchtchie, and Fraz-Urb'luu. That said... we aren't going to adopt all of these guys in. Orcus and Kostchtchie are in Golarion, for example, but Fraz-Urb'luu is not. Even though we COULD use him, since he's in the Tome of Horrors, I've made the decision not to, since he's one of the demons that's very closely tied to the World of Greyhawk and taking him out of there is kind of lame. By the same extension, while Orcus IS a part of Pathfinder... he probably won't see MUCH play since he's got so much going on in WotC products.
We'll be focusing on other demon lords for now. And the ones that'll probably get the most attention in the next year are the ones the drow worship.
Particularly Abraxus.
I forgot that the everyone's favorite lying demon lord was in the Tome of Horrors, but I agree, I associate him very closely to Greyhawk. Even though its not up for debate, it would be like trying to find a place for Eltab or Sonellion in Golarion . . . even if they weren't clearly WOTC territory, they are very much FR specific demon lords.
Contributor
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So both Lolth and Lloth are Wizards only huh.. interesting. :)
If we ever meet in person buy me a couple White Russians and I'll tell you a story about WotC's ownership of Lolth and the OGL. ;)
Edit: And before someone takes that the wrong way, my funny story has nothing to do with challenging their ownership or anything. It's not even really about WotC. But it is about Lolth and it is funny. ;)
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That said... we aren't going to adopt all of these guys in. Orcus and Kostchtchie are in Golarion, for example, but Fraz-Urb'luu is not. Even though we COULD use him, since he's in the Tome of Horrors, I've made the decision not to, since he's one of the demons that's very closely tied to the World of Greyhawk and taking him out of there is kind of lame. By the same extension, while Orcus IS a part of Pathfinder... he probably won't see MUCH play since he's got so much going on in WotC products.
Hmmm...I noticed James did not say that D&D cult favorite Kostchtchie would be marginalized...he would make a great foe in a Land of the Linnorm Kings or Mammoth Lords adventure.
The big frosty fella is still seriously underrated in the demon lord's club. His underdevelopment by WotC makes him a prime demon for Paizo to use in their products. The Demonomicon article was excellent, too.
That old cover from Dragon magazine where he is the smashing the Roman Centurions? This just screams awesome pulpy demonic action!
So both Lolth and Lloth are Wizards only huh.. interesting. :)If we ever meet in person buy me a couple White Russians and I'll tell you a story about WotC's ownership of Lolth and the OGL. ;)
Edit: And before someone takes that the wrong way, my funny story has nothing to do with challenging their ownership or anything. It's not even really about WotC. But it is about Lolth and it is funny. ;)
Seeya in Indy
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Creative Director
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So both Lolth and Lloth are Wizards only huh.. interesting. :)
Anyway, I'm cool with the demon worship stuff and I'm all for the drow killing eachother off.. if they're not, there's no reason they don't completely rule the underdark.
There's actually other reasons that the Drow don't totally rule the Darklands, even if they DON'T kill each other off. Turns out? There's a lot of monsters down there that are a LOT more deadly than drow. Many of them live in the layer of the Darklands below the drow's level...
There's actually other reasons that the Drow don't totally rule the Darklands, even if they DON'T kill each other off. Turns out? There's a lot of monsters down there that are a LOT more deadly than drow. Many of them live in the layer of the Darklands below the drow's level...So both Lolth and Lloth are Wizards only huh.. interesting. :)
Anyway, I'm cool with the demon worship stuff and I'm all for the drow killing eachother off.. if they're not, there's no reason they don't completely rule the underdark.
It is already hard enough to wait!! Please ... stop ... the ... madness!!
:)
My biggest problem with Lolth worship only is that all clerics become carbon-copy, white haired priestess with whips.
Demon-lord Drow opens the door for several different types of clerics, druids, and other divine classes, maybe a Demon Knight form of an Anti-Paladin?
What if the Spell-like abilities of Drow were more Warlock than Wizard? It would explain why renegade Drow lose these abilities and make PC Drow a little less munchkin.
As to why the Drow don't rule the world;
1: The Sun
2: The Finite Number of Dark Elves in my setting, this keeps them from
assembling a huge force.
3: The Sun
4: Competition between the Demon Lords can upset the balance of power within Drow cities.
5: The Frelling Sun
6: Other Underdark races don't want the Drow to draw too much attention to their world. Humans have infested the surface, they don't want them down here too.
Who would have thunk that about the Sun.
Vampires die in the sun, but Drow just burn, just pain. An Ache that never goes away, even a hundred years from now they will still feel that heat, that glare that hurts the eyes, that pain that the underdark never prepares you for.
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So both Lolth and Lloth are Wizards only huh.. interesting. :)If we ever meet in person buy me a couple White Russians and I'll tell you a story about WotC's ownership of Lolth and the OGL. ;)
Edit: And before someone takes that the wrong way, my funny story has nothing to do with challenging their ownership or anything. It's not even really about WotC. But it is about Lolth and it is funny. ;)
Seriously Dude, How can you say something like that and then just leave us hangin! I mean if they had a White Russian delivery service like Pizza or Flowers Youd be wicked wasted right now and sharing all sort of intersting tidbits. But there isnt so how bout and IOU or a virtual cookie or something, and you share theat funny story of yours? Pretty Please with a cherry on top...
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Contributor
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Well, we've already met in person, and I've got all the ingredients. How about I just show up at the office? :P
Hmm...
Seriously Dude, How can you say something like that and then just leave us hangin!
Because I'm a jerk.
I really like the idea of a White Russian delivery service, though. Unless that's just a front for something bad. Which it easily could be. Hmm... :\
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They're scheming, manipulative demon worshipers, in other words. To throw out the names of a couple of the demons they worship: Nocticula, Cyth-V'sug, Baphomet, Abraxus, Haagenti, and Socothbenoth. There's going to be six more as well...
If two of those six are Tsathoggua and Yig, allowing me to play Drow as the Men of K'n-Yan, you'll have successfully sold me on the Drow, Mr. Jacobs.
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Creative Director
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They're scheming, manipulative demon worshipers, in other words. To throw out the names of a couple of the demons they worship: Nocticula, Cyth-V'sug, Baphomet, Abraxus, Haagenti, and Socothbenoth. There's going to be six more as well...If two of those six are Tsathoggua and Yig, allowing me to play Drow as the Men of K'n-Yan, you'll have successfully sold me on the Drow, Mr. Jacobs.
Tsathoggua and Yig are not among the drow's demon lords, because neither of those two notables are demons; they're Great Old Ones. THAT SAID... drow worshipers of either are pretty cool, and would work well...
...especially since our Darklands are split into three realms, a top, a middle, and a deep, very much like K'n-Yan, Yoth, and N'kai. That, and the underworld of the Dreamlands are, in my opinion, very much a major source of inspiration for the whole concept of an "underdark" type realm in the first place.
I really like the idea of a White Russian delivery service, though. Unless that's just a front for something bad. Which it easily could be. Hmm... :\
Gotta watch out for that mail order bride business... Dr Venture said it best: "The damn thing was already dead when the crate finally showed up!"
;)
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There's actually other reasons that the Drow don't totally rule the Darklands, even if they DON'T kill each other off. Turns out? There's a lot of monsters down there that are a LOT more deadly than drow. Many of them live in the layer of the Darklands below the drow's level...So both Lolth and Lloth are Wizards only huh.. interesting. :)
Anyway, I'm cool with the demon worship stuff and I'm all for the drow killing eachother off.. if they're not, there's no reason they don't completely rule the underdark.
Catch me up... "layer of the Darklands" What's this and where do i find more on the Darklands?
Thoth-Amon
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Creative Director
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There's actually other reasons that the Drow don't totally rule the Darklands, even if they DON'T kill each other off. Turns out? There's a lot of monsters down there that are a LOT more deadly than drow. Many of them live in the layer of the Darklands below the drow's level...So both Lolth and Lloth are Wizards only huh.. interesting. :)
Anyway, I'm cool with the demon worship stuff and I'm all for the drow killing eachother off.. if they're not, there's no reason they don't completely rule the underdark.
Catch me up... "layer of the Darklands" What's this and where do i find more on the Darklands?
Thoth-Amon
The "Darklands" are the Golarion version of the Forgotten Realms's Underdark. We haven't revealed much info about the Darklands yet, though. The next adventure path deals a lot with them, and there'll be a 64-page gazetteer called "Into the Darklands" coming out later in the year.
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Creative Director
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Is Yig an Outsider (Native) or an Aberration (Reptilian)? ;)
Tsathoggua and Yig are not among the drow's demon lords, because neither of those two notables are demons; they're Great Old Ones. THAT SAID... drow worshipers of either are pretty cool, and would work well...
Well... going with the d20 Call of Cthulhu rules... it looks like they used Dragon as his base, underlying type, what with his big stack of skills and d12 Hit Dice.
If we were to stat him up in Golarion, we'd make him the same monster type as our serpent folk, which would either be Monstrous Humanoid or Aberration... I'm leaning toward Monstrous Humanoid.
Outsider (native) could work... but as far as the Great Old Ones go, he's actually a pretty down to earth kind of guy. No tentacles or nothin!
Arrg! This thread's teasers are driving me crazy! Who is Cyth-V'sug and how the hell do you pronounce that? He/she/it is the only one I don't recognize from the Book of Fiends.
Serpent folk? Where!?
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Creative Director
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Arrg! This thread's teasers are driving me crazy! Who is Cyth-V'sug and how the hell do you pronounce that? He/she/it is the only one I don't recognize from the Book of Fiends.
Serpent folk? Where!?
Cyth-V'sug wouldn't be from the Book of Fiends OR Fiendish Codex. He's a demon lord from my own homebrew (where he was the right-hand agent minion of Obox-ob). He's a demon lord of fungus, pollution, and decay; the demon lord of the Blasted Tarn and the Dying Forest.
AND: I pronounce it: SITH-vih-sug
Edit: And before someone takes that the wrong way,
Observation: I'm noticing lately that just about every time one of you guys mention Wizards, you put some kind of disclaimer saying that you're not mad at them or you're not trying to supplant them or etc. Just curious but are the conspiracey theories that previlent or does it seem like the "4E-disloyalist haters" looking for reasons to gripe and you guys just don't want to give them ammo?
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So both Lolth and Lloth are Wizards only huh.. interesting. :)If we ever meet in person buy me a couple White Russians and I'll tell you a story about WotC's ownership of Lolth and the OGL. ;)
Are you on Facebook?
If so, I can send you a virtual White Russian, and you can virtually tell me the story...|
Contributor
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Edit: And before someone takes that the wrong way,Observation: I'm noticing lately that just about every time one of you guys mention Wizards, you put some kind of disclaimer saying that you're not mad at them or you're not trying to supplant them or etc. Just curious but are the conspiracey theories that previlent or does it seem like the "4E-disloyalist haters" looking for reasons to gripe and you guys just don't want to give them ammo?
It seems like a lot of people want us to badmouth WotC, but we have no interest in doing that for any reason. We have nothing bad to say about WotC. Plain and simple. Of course, that doesn't stop some rabble-rousers from wanting to twist what we say and try to invent animosity that doesn't exist. So yeah, we're a little careful about what we say.
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It seems like a lot of people want us to badmouth WotC, but we have no interest in doing that for any reason. We have nothing bad to say about WotC. Plain and simple. Of course, that doesn't stop some rabble-rousers from wanting to twist what we say and try to invent animosity that doesn't exist. So yeah, we're a little careful about what we say.
I heard Mike McArtor was so pissed that ninjas weren't in the first round of classes for 4E that he toilet-papered the houses of everyone involved.
/rabble-rousing rumor
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You tricky irish ninja you.Are you on Facebook?
If so, I can send you a virtual White Russian, and you can virtually tell me the story...I am not. I am on LiveJournal, if you can find me. ;)
(Here's a hint: I talk about anime. A LOT.)
It all makes since now! He's Dr. McNinja!
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So both Lolth and Lloth are Wizards only huh.. interesting. :)If we ever meet in person buy me a couple White Russians and I'll tell you a story about WotC's ownership of Lolth and the OGL. ;)
Come to Long Island next year to promote Pathfinder & Pathfinder RPG at next year's Icon and I'll buy you enough White Russians you can float home. ;)
Anyway, I'm cool with the demon worship stuff and I'm all for the drow killing eachother off.. if they're not, there's no reason they don't completely rule the underdark.There's actually other reasons that the Drow don't totally rule the Darklands, even if they DON'T kill each other off. Turns out? There's a lot of monsters down there that are a LOT more deadly than drow. Many of them live in the layer of the Darklands below the drow's level...
Worse then the drow? Oh my. :)
It seems like a lot of people want us to badmouth WotC, but we have no interest in doing that for any reason. We have nothing bad to say about WotC. Plain and simple. Of course, that doesn't stop some rabble-rousers from wanting to twist what we say and try to invent animosity that doesn't exist. So yeah, we're a little careful about what we say.
That and a lot of people have ties and friendships with past and present WOTC employees. Heck, don't a few of you even game with WOTCys... not to mention you all know where eachother works and are within driving distance. I imagine WOTC has a larger supply of TP and should they need to could make a real mess of your office. ;)
Come to think of it though.. Team Paizo vs. Team Wizards on American Gladiators could be very entertaining. :)
Tsathoggua and Yig are not among the drow's demon lords, because neither of those two notables are demons; they're Great Old Ones. THAT SAID... drow worshipers of either are pretty cool, and would work well...
...especially since our Darklands are split into three realms, a top, a middle, and a deep, very much like K'n-Yan, Yoth, and N'kai. That, and the underworld of the Dreamlands are, in my opinion, very much a major source of inspiration for the whole concept of an "underdark" type realm in the first place.
Not only that, but should the drow really be restricted primarily to demon worship? You try to tell me that the Elder Elemental God is not an Old One or Outer God and I'll just chuckle.
Also, them drow sure do like their tentacles... ^.^
Finally: what is up with that lady's ears? Are those spikes giant ornaments or actually part of her?
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Contributor
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That and a lot of people have ties and friendships with past and present WOTC employees. Heck, don't a few of you even game with WOTCys... not to mention you all know where eachother works and are within driving distance. I imagine WOTC has a larger supply of TP and should they need to could make a real mess of your office. ;)
Come to think of it though.. Team Paizo vs. Team Wizards on American Gladiators could be very entertaining. :)
Yes, there are personal friendships that connect our companies.
He he... Team Paizo v Team WotC on American Gladiators would be fun. :D