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I like lower magic campaigns so masterwork weapons and armor are important to my players. The current flat +150 for armor and +300 for weapons simply result in weird prices.
* A masterwork dagger costs 302, that's 151x the cost of a regular dagger.
* A masterwork repeating heavy crossbow costs 700, that's less than double.
* A masterwork suit of leather armor costs 160, that's 16x the cost or regular leather armor.
* A masterwork suit of full plate costs 1,650, that a mere 10% bump.
I would really like to see masterwork items prices as a multiple of regular items. I don't really care what multiple, but all masterwork items should be double or triple or quadruple the price of their regular counterparts.
Now, what I'd REALLY like to see is an expanded masterwork selection:
Masterwork quality - +2 modifier, x5 cost
High quality - +1 mod, x2 cost
Average quality
Low quality - -1 mod, 1/2 price if you can get anyone to buy this crap.
Inferior quality - -2 mod, unsellable without a Bluff
i use something close to this and yes masterwork stuff is way overpriced
me too
I personally loved the masterwork weapons and armor rules from Green Ronin's version of the Black Company setting. In this there was not just shoddy, average and masterwork. There were several levels of masterwork quality and more than just +1 to hit for weapons and dropping the action penalty by one for armor. How many masterwork qualities a weapon or armor could have depended on what level of masterwrok it was. Higher levels of masterwork allowed you to double or even triple stack qualities. An example was an armor crafted to be intimidating adding +2 to intimidate. Or a extra weighted mace that delivered +1 damage. I thought it was nice to have options for impressive weapons without having to have magic and for having options on what effect that level of craftsmanship granted.
-Weylin STormcrowe
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I did 10x cost for masterwork weapons and 5x cost for masterwork armor, and it works reasonably well at lower costs (MW daggers are 20 gp), but MW Mighty Composite Longbows (+4 Str) are ridiculous. So I went back to +300/+150 gp for simplicity.
I have the Black Company setting, and I think they did a pretty good job of offering new masterwork-style options for weapons, so you could have a non-magical kickass sword (or whathaveyou).
I would have no problem with something like:
x4 for weapons, and x3 for armor.
A consequence of this would be a lot more MW items available in the lower items (thinking of hide armor vs chain or full plate).
Excellent suggestion Mosaic.
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PCs will almost never have any reason to deal with such things.
I disagree. MW items are the underpinnings of Magical items, so any change made here will always affect the PCs, from 1st through 20th level and beyond.
I also disagree with the statement that +2 mundane is too much. Remember that this is just a +2 to hit, not damage. I think it adds something nice without messing things up too much.
How about something like this:
Make a list of possible improvements (masterwork properties):
1) +1 attack
2) +1 damage
3) +1 AC
4) -1 AC Penalty
5) +1 Max DEX
6) ...
Now, for every MW-property choosen you have to pay the full equipment price again.
You want a masterwork dagger with +1 attack & damage, 6 GP.
While this might sound to low, we are still talking about a dagger.
So I really doubt that this would be that unbalancing.
Quick and simple.
I don't think charging different extra costs for armor or weapons is that logical (and too complicate) since armor usually costs much more than a weapon, so will auto-adjust the prices themselves.
How about something like this:
Make a list of possible improvements (masterwork properties):
1) +1 attack
2) +1 damage
3) +1 AC
4) -1 AC Penalty
5) +1 Max DEX
6) ...Now, for every MW-property choosen you have to pay the full equipment price again.
You want a masterwork dagger with +1 attack & damage, 6 GP.
While this might sound to low, we are still talking about a dagger.
So I really doubt that this would be that unbalancing.Quick and simple.
I don't think charging different extra costs for armor or weapons is that logical (and too complicate) since armor usually costs much more than a weapon, so will auto-adjust the prices themselves.
Draco, that is essentially what Green Ronin did in the Black Company setting with some restrctions.
Level 1 1 ability
Level 2 2 abilities
Level 3 3 abilities, can double up one of them
Level 4 4 abiltiies
Level 5 5 abilities, can double up two or triple up one
or something like that (no longer have the book so i working from memeory). Abilities range from lighter weight to attack bonus to damage bonus to intimindation bonus etc etc.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
Had no clue. Two stupids - one thought?
There is actually a great article in Dragon Magazine # 358 that deals with masterwork weapons and armor callled Master's Forge. It discusses alternative bonuses. Great article. I use it in two campaigns I'm currently in.
With that said, I like Mosaic's idea of changing the pricing of masterwork items to "make more sense," and perhaps this should be done in the core book, but I don't think adding all the levels of complexity to masterwork items needs to be in the first rulebook. I think a lot of posters have some really great ideas... which could serve as alternate rules to the core. It would be nice to have a published work, even a magazine to put forth all these ideas, like alternative hps, variant masterwork benefits, etc...
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How about something like this:
Make a list of possible improvements (masterwork properties):
1) +1 attack
2) +1 damage
3) +1 AC
4) -1 AC Penalty
5) +1 Max DEX
6) ...Now, for every MW-property choosen you have to pay the full equipment price again.
You want a masterwork dagger with +1 attack & damage, 6 GP.
While this might sound to low, we are still talking about a dagger.
So I really doubt that this would be that unbalancing.Quick and simple.
I don't think charging different extra costs for armor or weapons is that logical (and too complicate) since armor usually costs much more than a weapon, so will auto-adjust the prices themselves.
idk, 6gp seems ridiculously cheap to me. Why even bother having MW weapons when everyone can afford them at character creation? Perhaps if you priced with a hybrid of your suggestion and the current system. You could have various levels of masterwork item, giving different abilities, and each level would be multiplied by the 300gp/150pg value for weapons and armor.
Value wise, this would give a seamless progression from basic equipment to the various levels of masterwork, and eventually to magic. System like this would prove extraordinarily useful in a slow xp progression campaign with PFRPG.
How about something like this:
Make a list of possible improvements (masterwork properties):
1) +1 attack
2) +1 damage
3) +1 AC
4) -1 AC Penalty
5) +1 Max DEX
6) ...Now, for every MW-property choosen you have to pay the full equipment price again.
You want a masterwork dagger with +1 attack & damage, 6 GP.
While this might sound to low, we are still talking about a dagger.
So I really doubt that this would be that unbalancing.Quick and simple.
I don't think charging different extra costs for armor or weapons is that logical (and too complicate) since armor usually costs much more than a weapon, so will auto-adjust the prices themselves.
idk, 6gp seems ridiculously cheap to me. Why even bother having MW weapons when everyone can afford them at character creation? Perhaps if you priced with a hybrid of your suggestion and the current system. You could have various levels of masterwork item, giving different abilities, and each level would be multiplied by the 300gp/150pg value for weapons and armor.
Value wise, this would give a seamless progression from basic equipment to the various levels of masterwork, and eventually to magic. System like this would prove extraordinarily useful in a slow xp progression campaign with PFRPG.
Consider that the PCs are inherently much much wealethier than the average citizen. It would be a mistake actually to base any economic system on what wealth PCs have. The average laborer makes 2sp per day. That means a masterwork dagger is about a months income for him...more once you factor how much of that 2sp goes to other expenses first. PCs will always skew any pricing on items from the get go.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
I like lower magic campaigns so masterwork weapons and armor are important to my players. The current flat +150 for armor and +300 for weapons simply result in weird prices.
* A masterwork dagger costs 302, that's 151x the cost of a regular dagger.
* A masterwork repeating heavy crossbow costs 700, that's less than double.* A masterwork suit of leather armor costs 160, that's 16x the cost or regular leather armor.
* A masterwork suit of full plate costs 1,650, that a mere 10% bump.I would really like to see masterwork items prices as a multiple of regular items. I don't really care what multiple, but all masterwork items should be double or triple or quadruple the price of their regular counterparts.
Now, what I'd REALLY like to see is an expanded masterwork selection:
Masterwork quality - +2 modifier, x5 cost
High quality - +1 mod, x2 cost
Average quality
Low quality - -1 mod, 1/2 price if you can get anyone to buy this crap.
Inferior quality - -2 mod, unsellable without a Bluff
I agree. It sounds like Harn regarding the item quality effects. I would also like to see a flat two to four times cost multiplier for Masterwork items for the reasons you have cited.
I've been working on a variety of masterwork qualities, essentially any way you can change the stat of a weapon, armor, shield or equipment I tried to work into a masterwork quality. I had used standard pricing, but x10 to x50 really sounds like a better idea. As far as strength bows go, I'd consider that a masterwork quality of sorts, tacked on separately from other masterwork qualities - which is likewise based off the base item.
Some of the masterwork qualities in brief:
Weapons
Balanced: +1 to hit (PHB standard)
Razor-Sharp: piercing/slashing only, +1 to crit range
Barbed: piercing/slashing only, +1 to crit multiplier
Spiked: bludgeon only; adds slashing damage to weapon
Hooked: adds tripping quality to weapon
Monastic: add to light weapon only; makes it a monk weapon
Heavy: bludgeon only, +1 to crit multiplier
Bejeweled: increases visible/sale value, no other benefit
etc.
Armor
Caster's: lower spell failure by -5%
Fitted: lowers Armor check by 1 (PHB standard)
Reinforced: increases Armor bonus by +1
etc.
Shield
Curved: increases shield bonus by +1
Viewslit: increases Reflex bonus by +2 vs. gaze attacks
etc.
Equipment
Superior: grants +1 to +5 equipment bonus (like a magnifying glass's +2 bonus to Search and Appraise)
Except for monastic (which is stupid, no offense) those ideas are PRETTY GOOD.
But I still think x10 or even x50 is WAY to high.
As stated before: The income of adventures is no guideline for prices whatsoever.
Except for monastic (which is stupid, no offense) those ideas are PRETTY GOOD.
*shrug*
Monastic was an idea to stat up oriental martial arts weapons without having to make half-a-dozen new stat blocks. For example, a monastic short sword could represent a nine-rings sword, and the monk would be able to pick it up and use it without having to burn a feat or you spend your breath adding it to the monk's list of weapons. It's the same idea behind a katana being a masterwork bastard sword (which I'm not entirely happy with myself).
But I still think x10 or even x50 is WAY to high.
As stated before: The income of adventures is no guideline for prices whatsoever.
Unfortunately, its the only balance we have. If masterwork is too cheap, it could trump magic items in many ways. For example, razor-sharp masterwork quality vs. keen magical quality. That would put a skew on game balance.
Or look at it another way - if you added a masterwork quality that adds +1 to hit and a different masterwork quality that adds +1 to damage, shouldn't that cost around the same amount as a +1 sword? If it's cheaper, which would you attempt to get?
Well certainly not, since a weapon of whatsoever masterwork quality can't break magical DR, f.e.
It's no big rule thing, but I always add some nice fluff around magical weapons:
- the never rust, the never get blunt (for swords etc.) and they tend to affect the characters dreams (like sending visions of the items past)
While I like the idea of additional Masterwork options, I am not that comfortable with a masterwork dagger costing about the same as a chain mail or something.
About Monastic:
The problem I have with the monk is that I don't really know how to percieve him. If should be something like a shaolin monk, than why doesn't he uses a spear, f.e.
And I don't know if Shaolin monks train with swords at all.
Masterwork weapons, even if they could emulate a +1 Keen blade, is still mighty sunderable. Magic weapons have a lot better saves than non-magic weapons. As far as I remember, magic weapons, especially higher levels are pretty much minor artifacts, which then falls into that set of item rules.
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While I like the idea of additional Masterwork options, I am not that comfortable with a masterwork dagger costing about the same as a chain mail or something.
I know a masterwork dagger would be pretty cheap (for adventurers), but think of your average farmer or tradesman. If he's going to save up a little money and buy one high quality weapon/tool/survival kit, it's probably going to be a good knife. MUCH more utility than a sword for most folks. So I'd be okay with masterwork daggers being more common. It's still only a dagger, 1d4 damage. Maybe if there were more +1 daggers around, more NPCs would actually use them as their primary weapon and 1st-level PCs could start off with an affordable weapon with a bonus (this would be particularly good for rogues and casters).
I always forget about the sundering limitation - as you can guess, it doesn't come up in my game very often.
That in itself would probably make a nice masterwork quality - "resilient", granting extra HP or hardness making it more difficult to destroy.
...And on the monk weapons, I believe I've seen Shoalin practicing with nine-ring swords on "Human Weapon" or whatever that Discovery show was. Anyway, it's was just a suggestion to add extra exotic weapons to the game without cluttering up the weapon tables for every variation in a weapon that exists. You could conceivably do the same thing with Dwarf masterwork items, Elf masterwork items an the like - adding exotic properties or attributed but making them basic weapons for the named race/class.
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Except for monastic (which is stupid, no offense) those ideas are PRETTY GOOD.
*shrug*
Monastic was an idea to stat up oriental martial arts weapons without having to make half-a-dozen new stat blocks. For example, a monastic short sword could represent a nine-rings sword, and the monk would be able to pick it up and use it without having to burn a feat or you spend your breath adding it to the monk's list of weapons. It's the same idea behind a katana being a masterwork bastard sword (which I'm not entirely happy with myself).
But I still think x10 or even x50 is WAY to high.
As stated before: The income of adventures is no guideline for prices whatsoever.
Unfortunately, its the only balance we have. If masterwork is too cheap, it could trump magic items in many ways. For example, razor-sharp masterwork quality vs. keen magical quality. That would put a skew on game balance.
Or look at it another way - if you added a masterwork quality that adds +1 to hit and a different masterwork quality that adds +1 to damage, shouldn't that cost around the same amount as a +1 sword? If it's cheaper, which would you attempt to get?
of course a nine-ring sword is more of a scimitar than a short sword...in addition it would allow a bonus to disarming, as that's what the rings were for.
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Well certainly not, since a weapon of whatsoever masterwork quality can't break magical DR, f.e.
It's no big rule thing, but I always add some nice fluff around magical weapons:
- the never rust, the never get blunt (for swords etc.) and they tend to affect the characters dreams (like sending visions of the items past)While I like the idea of additional Masterwork options, I am not that comfortable with a masterwork dagger costing about the same as a chain mail or something.
About Monastic:
The problem I have with the monk is that I don't really know how to percieve him. If should be something like a shaolin monk, than why doesn't he uses a spear, f.e.
And I don't know if Shaolin monks train with swords at all.
Shaolin train with a large variety of weapons, not just spears, they train in several types of swords.
This sums it up really well I think... Really.. if you could afford a +1 weapon at character creation, you're gonna tell me you'll wait for a magic one.. I don't think so. .the MW rules are there for game balance.. simple truth.. if every fighter could start with cool weapons then the other classes would then want the same.. lets give clerics cure wands with 10 charges that they can replenish when they do morning prayers.. mages with wands.. rogues with instant kill abilities.. I could go on but someone is going to get bored..
Balance has always been the deciding force for this game since it's inception... well except for some of the second ed stuff.. lol... the games world economy would collapse if the pricing for such items fell to such lows.. plus every street punk with a +1/+1 MW dagger would rule his street corner.. remember the words 'Game balance' when you create these kinds of rules changes/house rules...
Just my 2 coppers
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One thing that I'd like to see...
Masterwork weapons as art.
I just saw a description of a 1,500 gp masterwork sword describing the jewels in the pommel and the type of filigree.
Masterwork weapons should be 'art pieces'. They should at least have 'levels'. A character should want to buy a 'signature sword' and have in enchanted. Or if he finds a magical sword, having some 'art sword' descriptions would give a value of more than +300 gp.
I definitely agree on cost multipliers replacing the +150/+300 gold pieces rule for the pricing of Masterwork items - this is clearly just plain better than the old system. I also like the expanded Masterwork system ideas.
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... the games world economy would collapse if the pricing for such items fell to such lows.. plus every street punk with a +1/+1 MW dagger would rule his street corner...
I originally said I thought masterwork weapons should cost x2 or x3, but I'm not really tied to any specific number, I just think it should be a multiplier rather than at flat +300. I'd be fine with x5 or x10 if folks thought that would be more balanced. I just want something that scales more with the base cost of the weapon.
Keep in mind that any change to the cost of masterwork weapons and armor will also effect the cost of magical weapons and armors since the masterwork determines the base cost for them. While i support the change to a multiplier instead of a flat gp amount, if we only use x2 or x3 this would shave several hundred gp off the cost of items making it easier for characters to acquire low power magical arms and armor. Perhaps x10 or x20 would be better since it would be closer to the current costs.
-Weylin STormcrowe
The costs are as they are to keep them out of the hands of 1st-2nd level characters while not overly burdening higher level characters with their cost.
If you double the base item cost to get master work, you end up with most folks early on (1st level) having masterwork weapons, while most folks will skip masterwork armor entirely until later on.
Masterwork on a weapon is /nice/. At the levels you get it, +1 to hit is a nice big number.
I've never seen anyone pine away though for that -1 to ACP. Folks just don't tend to care nearly as much. They only worry about it when they are strapping on that first +1 piece of armor they find.
Doubling or even tripling weapon costs to get masterwork is really just going to cheapen them in the long run, and drastically. Who, afterall, will pay 2gp for a normal when you could pay 2 or 6 for one with +1 to hit?
Personally, I think double weapons should cost x1.5, not x2. However, that does skew double weapons in favor of buying two of the same weapon, which does screwy things to TWF's.
If we were to go with price multipliers, no-cost weapons would have to have a "1 gp value" minimum rule. Your quarterstaff for example, with a x10 masterwork cost would cost a minimum of 10 gp.
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How would this multiplier be applied to weapons that have no cost such as club, sling and staff?
I'd say nothing should be free. A club or staff that's free is called a stick and should probably count as an improvised weapon. When I think of a weapon-quality club, I think of a baseball bat or one of those fancy, curved Native American war clubs. Put a minimum price of 1 gp on any weapon.
How would this multiplier be applied to weapons that have no cost such as club, sling and staff?I'd say nothing should be free. A club or staff that's free is called a stick and should probably count as an improvised weapon. When I think of a weapon-quality club, I think of a baseball bat or one of those fancy, curved Native American war clubs. Put a minimum price of 1 gp on any weapon.While I disagree with the specific unit price, I do agree with the sentiment. I don't see how a near-straight pole stout enough to walk on and smooth enough to travel with is free in most environments. There's craftsmanship involved. I'm not calling it expensive, detailed, or difficult, but it's there, and it has a price. A silver or so?
On the flip side, I do have to go with the contingent that has a problem with a masterwork quarterstaff costing more than a masterwork longsword.
I can see a masterwork staff costing more than a masterwork long sword depending on the materials used in both and the level of work put into each. Which is why i firmly advocate levels of masterwork quality...masterwork is not an all or nothing sort of thing. Especially since masterwork covers everything from just very well made and balanced weapons to well-made, balanced and ornate weapons. A masterwork sword coul be a very plain looking weapon with a perfect balance and a razor sharp edge or it could have precious metals and gems imbeded in it. A masterwork staff could be simply perfectly straight and weighted combining good rigidity with flexibility or it could also be carved in intricate scenes of glorious deeds.
-Weylin Stormcrowe