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I have always disliked the spell and undead energy drain effects. -1 level, -2 levels, always seemed to mechanical and superficial of a way to describe what happens when your life energy gets drained away. This method also takes away any REAL fear over getting hit by a energy drain or undead as it can be fixed very easily with restorations (yes, supposedly, level drains CAN become permenant but very rare is the case that they do and if they do it can become crippling for that character to continue). So how to balance the issue with a effect that is truly horrible but not a show stopper? A little brainstorming here. Making it a condition or a negative energy magical disease (along the lines of mummy rot) might work. The more powerful the energy drain the higher the save DC and quicker it effects you. You slowly waste away as your wounded life force drains into the multiverse until you succumb and rise as one of the undead.
Or maybe better yet, once you get hit by the undead it stays with you forever (maybe miracle or wish could fix it). It has no immediate effect on your character at all but if you should any point die than you have an immediate chance of rising as one of the undead and your soul is unavailable for resurrection until this is cured/fixed. So, if you get hit by a wight it gives you a 5% cumulative chance per hit to rise as an undead upon death, whereas a vampire has 10% cumulative chance per hit, so on and so forth.
Being resurrected is another of those things that has had many penalties that don't seem to work very well. How, do you make staying alive meaningful and at the same time not penalize a character so badly that it is not fun? Perhaps it adds a 25% cumulative chance of returning as undead instead of level penalties or con drain. After all you are messing with life and death. This all adds a certain amount of uncertainty when messing around with this and brings the curse of undeath to a more personal level and the ramifications thereof. The first rez hit is free but watch out after that (and maybe that one isn't even free if you were previously drained by some undead nasty).
These methods hopefully reduce the record keeping needed during combat.
Anyway, these were some thoughts anyone else have something to add??
I've had a bit of a problem with these conditions myself. Here's how I'm currently handling them, and these methods seem to work:
For energy drain, I handle it partly through roleplaying and partly through mechanics. The character is described as looking pale and sickly, basically, and NPCs react accordingly. Mechanically, I impose a -1 penalty per negative level on EVERY ROLL. This simulates that the character in question simply isn't himself and is impaired by the effects of having his soul slowly slipping away. Finally, there is a 20% per negative level chance that the character rises as an undead if killed. This condition is permanent unless the character goes through a lengthy cleansing ritual (which amounts to changing the casting time for a restoration spell to 2 days/level drained) or receives the benefits of a wish/miracle spell.
For cases of character death, I also handle the situation partly with roleplaying and partly with mechanics. Taking a cue from 1e, no character can be raised unless the deity granting the spell has reason to believe that resurrecting that character is in his (the deity's) best interests. Also, since resurrection is supposed to be a significant event, nobody can expect to just stop by a local temple and find a cleric who has the spell handy. Arrangements must be made with the appropriate clergymen, offerings must be made, and all this takes time. Mechanically, I simply charge double for all raising/resurrecting/reincarnating spells. In the case of reincarnation (which has been a problem IMC), I rewrote the tables and ruled that the DM gets to roll the dice (which allows me to fudge a bit if I feel it necessary). The new tables allow for the possibility that the character will be reincarnated as an awakened animal, awakened plant, or a terrain-appropriate creature. In other words, if you're reincarnated in a swamp you're not likely to come back as a dwarf. You might come back as a shambling mound, though, or perhaps a lizardfolk, or a giant frog, or a bullywug. Note that I no longer require reincarnated characters to lose a level - getting turned into an intelligent turnip is usually punishment enough.
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I see we agree in some areas such as a chance to rise as an undead. I also completely agree with the roleplaying aspect as that should generally play into every part of the game IMHO. However, I am trying to get a better base mechanic that lends itself to better roleplaying and also giving these occurances the appropriate weight and fear I feel they should have without causing the game to stall or someone to just go get a new character because it's so much easier. Now I feel that overall modifying rolls one way or another is just another level of complexity (especially during combat). However, that being said I think I could agree that your system of having a -1 on ALL rolls does address this somewhat (though may be overly harsh). "Levels" are a way of measuring life experience not life force or the soul. So it seems arbitrary and silly to give characters "negative levels". Thus, I was trying to connect the life-Death-Undeath dots a bit with the percentage system written in my original post (that we both seem somewhat in agreement on actually).
[quote=]I've had a bit of a problem with these conditions myself. Here's how I'm currently handling them, and these methods seem to work:
For energy drain, I handle it partly through roleplaying and partly through mechanics. The character is described as looking pale and sickly, basically, and NPCs react accordingly. Mechanically, I impose a -1 penalty per negative level on EVERY ROLL. This simulates that the character in question simply isn't himself and is impaired by the effects of having his soul slowly slipping away. Finally, there is a 20% per negative level chance that the character rises as an undead if killed. This condition is permanent unless the character goes through a lengthy cleansing ritual (which amounts to changing the casting time for a restoration spell to 2 days/level drained) or receives the benefits of a wish/miracle spell.
Which condition is permanent, or both? I think many may feel that the lengthy cleansing ritual may slow the game down too much, make it possibly an optional rule? Maybe the -1 to every roll can be fixed with a restoration as it is written now but the percentage takes a miracle or wish to get rid of (your much more attuned to the negative plane now, or somesuch)
[quote=]For cases of character death, I also handle the situation partly with roleplaying and partly with mechanics. Taking a cue from 1e, no character can be raised unless the deity granting the spell has reason to believe that resurrecting that character is in his (the deity's) best interests. Also, since resurrection is supposed to be a significant event, nobody can expect to just stop by a local temple and find a cleric who has the spell handy. Arrangements must be made with the appropriate clergymen, offerings must be made, and all this takes time. Mechanically, I simply charge double for all raising/resurrecting/reincarnating spells.
In the case of reincarnation (which has been a problem IMC), I rewrote the tables and ruled that the DM gets to roll the dice (which allows me to fudge a bit if I feel it necessary). The new tables allow for the possibility that the character will be reincarnated as an awakened animal, awakened plant, or a terrain-appropriate creature. In other words, if you're reincarnated in a swamp you're not likely to come back as a dwarf. You might come back as a shambling mound, though, or perhaps a lizardfolk, or a giant frog, or a bullywug. Note that I no longer require reincarnated characters to lose a level - getting turned into an intelligent turnip is usually punishment enough.
Now personally, I agree completely with all you said about reincarnate but how would you make that work for someone who doesn't want to be bothered to think outside the box? For example, having to create and publish a seperate table for each environment or have the caster of the spell (usually Druids) pick a form that makes sense for thier diety or ethos. While I personally, may use everything idea you put in here the goal is to make it simple and publishable enough with the current sources available to be of use in Pathfinder. Personally I see a druid reincarnating someone into the local fauna and flora and leaving them there making reincarnation a career ender but that is not for everyone. "What? It's the cycle of life. The natural order," and all that. However, in keeping with the spirit of how the spell is currently written how do we make your above suggestions fit for everyone?
What do you think?
Well, to be completely honest I suspect many would have trouble with my approaches, and I doubt they would be very publishable at all. Most players wouldn't appreciate the harshness, and very few DMs would be willing (or even able) to take the time. And since the game publishing industry currently favors speed of execution and simplicity of mechanics over atmosphere and ambience, I doubt any publisher would touch my ideas with a 50' silk rope.
In essence, it boils down to this: there's no problem with the rules themselves. The problem lies in the system _around_ the rules. For example, you mentioned that the ritual slows down the game. It does, and it's intended to. Negative levels are supposed to be a big deal, so I made them inconvenient for the player as well as for the character. Likewise death is supposed to be a real pain and something to be avoided, so I made it unpleasant for both player and PC. IMV, 3.5e is designed to progress too quickly. Both players and DMs expect events to progress as rapidly as they would in a video game. This, to me, is an unrealistic expectation. Similarly, mortality in the RAW is both too common and too easy to deal with. It needs to be made more unpleasant and more inconvenient. A good DM is supposed to keep his thumb on the pace of the game, adjusting as needed to allow the players to enjoy their experience. Though it pains me to say it (since I enjoyed all 3 of Dungeon's APs), I suspect Paizo's APs have encouraged this problem. DMs tend to run them more or less as written, without allowing for needed lulls in the action and without including opportunities for the PCs to catch their breaths.
You also mentioned the tendency of many players to simply create a new character instead of dealing with unpleasant occurrences such as death and energy drain. I'm afraid there's no way to deal with this simply through writing better rules. You see, the only way to inspire players to fear these phenomena is to make them fearful - that is, when they occur they must be both painful and inconvenient. And yet, as you rightly say, many players will simply make a new character rather than deal with the situation. This occurs because the player feels (rightly) that his character is nothing more than a collection of stats - the fruit of a mere few minutes' labor. To make death and energy drain more frightening you must give the player something he truly values...and then threaten to take it away. That means he must be helped to develop a character that requires more than the rolling of a few dice. The player must work on his character, mold it into a work of art and personal expression, and then hold onto it until it begins to mean something to him. Only when this has occurred does the player begin to prefer dealing with his character's incapacity rather than simply replacing it.
The key to making my approaches work lies not in the rules themselves but in preparing the players ahead of time and in preparing the adventures themselves. Every time I start a new campaign or introduce a new player, I make sure everyone understands the house rules and how I'm going to administrate them. I also have them observe a session or two before they decide if they want to play with me and the other players. Thus, if they don't like or understand the rules they don't stick around. Also, when I use published adventures I make sure to include opportunities for the PCs to step away from the plot and take care of things like death and level loss.
To me this whole subject is illustrative of 3.5e's true flaw: While WotC did a great job of teaching DMs how to apply the rules, they never taught them how to truly run a game.
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Amen! I would very happily play with your rules and have the feeling we would get along quite well.
I do, however, hold the players responsible for alot of the speed of todays games also. We live in a instant gratification society and sadly many who play (even some of my own players) have succumbed to this. I myself like exploring all of those morally ambiguous areas where you have to really think about what your doing and how your character would react. Some of my players love this while other are the "just give me something to hit type". So, I like creating base mechanics that make sense and at the same time are flexible enough to fit both roles even in the same game. ALL of my players agree that the system gets bogged down at times and frusterates everyone. Thus the attempt to simplify it in such a way as to add flavor, background, and make sense. Now each and every GM and player is different and regardless of what rules are written they will tweak them to fit their style and needs. Rightfully so, but that's no reason not to lay a good foundation from which they can build their palace.
I mean what the hell is a negative level anyway? This is where the root of the problem lies. I have played with them since 1st ed. and they don't seem to have any direct connection to the life-death-undeath cycle. So, IMO throw out that archaic mechanism and replace it with something that truly gives depth to the game and is functional. At the same time give consequences that lend themselves to roleplaying such as suddenly showing up on Detect Undead spells. Does this really hurt anyone or cause the game to come to a standstill? No. But it DOES make them think of their own mortality. Ok, easier said than done, right?
Condition: Undead Taint (level 1) - The stench of the grave surrounds you in a pallpable aura to those that are sensitive to such things and wielders of the necromantic arts. You are growing paler, more sickly, and lethargic. Posative energy effects such as healing spells have less of an effect on you (a -1 to die rolls for such spells and effects and a shortening of the time they last if they have a duration) and necromantic effects have a greater impact (+1 caster level for necro abilities or effects). Living ceatures who use the necromantic arts will sometimes willingly carry this taint. You suffer 2 ability damage to all ability scores (or Con, Wis, and Dex?) to reflect the weakening of body and spirit. The effects of this condition mean that a detect undead spell responds faintly to you. Paladins become immune to this condition at 4th level as well as certain clerics. This condition can be acquired repeatedly and is stackable (example: a vampire striking you multiple times). If death occurs with this taint the subject is likely to come back as an undead of a type determined by either the creature they were struck by or by the table included below based off of their HD. This condition is removable by Restoration or Paladins lay hands on ability (1 level removed per 5 hp healing applyed - either all of condition is removed or none of it).
Some fun possibilities:
If someone's mental stats drop to zero before their physical stats they become what is known as the "living dead". Mindlessly wandering in seach of sustenance.
One of the requirements to become a lich is a minimum of a level 5 (level 10?) in this condition.
This has not been playtested at all and I am sure could be refined. What do you think?
BTW thanks for your imput it has been very helpful so far.
As I understand it, the level drain idea was one of EGG's nasty wargame-inspired methods of causing a little fear in his players. I suspect it may have been partially inspired by the Lord of the Rings wherein Frodo was wounded by one of the bad guys and suffered for it thereafter.
I must say I like your approach, though. That's a nifty idea, and I look forward to playtesting it someday soon. I think it may capture the desired effect a bit better than simple energy draining.
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I like the energy drain spells the way they are now.
My players already fear them, because one or two effects in a single encounter can seriously tip the odds.
I don't see the penalties as a character "forgetting" things he has learned, but as suggested above, having a weakened life force or "soul".
Ghosts, vampires, shadows, mummies, and a great variety of other undead already have special abilities that can immediately drain (or damage) ability scores. I don't see the need to change the energy drain effect.
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I like the idea of a -1 to all rolls, cumulative per hit. I don't know about permanent, maybe they return at 1 per day as you are slowly reinvigorated? Also, if you die during this time frame, you have a 10% per -1 of raising as an undead.
I would also add at temporary -1 to Constitution, cumulative, so that it's still possible for the enemy to kill you outright by draining your life. At that point, you are almost 100% certain to rise as an unholy minion...
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Given the new positive/negative energy turning rules, I plan to experiment with energy drain as a barrier against healing rather than as a level drain.
Basically, when you're touched and drained by the undead, you have a spell resistance to positive energy healing (and healing potions). Restoration spells must overcome this DC before negating it, unless it is performed at a holy site or church, in which case it always works.
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Given the new positive/negative energy turning rules, I plan to experiment with energy drain as a barrier against healing rather than as a level drain.
Basically, when you're touched and drained by the undead, you have a spell resistance to positive energy healing (and healing potions). Restoration spells must overcome this DC before negating it, unless it is performed at a holy site or church, in which case it always works.
I really like the above idea as it is developing flavor and character for this within the new PF rules and flows with some of the ideas I wrote earlier.
It amazes me at the sheer number of variations on the energy drain and death rules out there but there have been some great suggestions here so far. This seems to indicate a general dissatisfaction with the current rules around the subjects. It seems to me that the few that are completely ok with the current rules are number crunchers and/or their campaigns revolve mainly around the combat mechanics. I want something that has depth to it instead of "Oh, I got level drained again? Ok, I have added the negatives." That's not scary, that's not something that strikes fear into the hearts of characters. Add some mystery to the afterlife and make nothing a sure thing. This IS someones life essence being mucked around with. The roleplaying side is what is missing. The mechanic in place just doesn't inspire to much out of players or GMs. You have to force a description over it and then it's just a blase temporary effect because of restorations. So what if it can drastically alter a combat one way or another. Is that the sole goal?
Let's create something great here that people will look at and say "Wow! That's intense. Hope I don't run into any life draining undead but if I do I can already see many roleplaying opportunities like coughing up blood every so often because of what that vampire did to me."