Recently, the availability of Pathfinder Release 2 failed to appear as news on the front page of ENWorld (on or near the same day that someone's video review of the WotC website was listed as news). I used to be an avid reader of ENWorld news and boards, but since the announcement of Pathfinder RPG, I find the site to be increasingly uninteresting to the point of irrelevance.
Most of my "Eh"World feeling stems from how great the Paizo boards are. The fan interaction is great, the discussions are topical and lively, and the participation of the Paizo staff members is nothing short of astounding. (I am reminded of the early days of the Marvel Bullpen in terms of positive fan-company feelings here---well, at least as the Bullpen appeared in legend if not in reality)
Of course, the pushing off of Paizo to the OGL forum also had an immediate impact on my ENWorld reading--as despite the formality of the decision, it seemed an immediate relegation to second-citizen status. But while I think my reasons for a lack of interest in ENWorld are understandable, I think it's not going to help Pathfinder marketing for fans like myself not to visit there and engage in the same lively discussions we do here.
Is anyone feeling the same way towards ENWorld? And do you have any suggestions to "buff" Pathfinder discussions there?
-Peter
Add me to this list I used to be there all the time now i don't go much at all seems if it's not 4e its not worth anything there
It doesn't seem terrible objective. Like the top Admin is on the payroll of a certain Corp.
That is a purely subjective opinion of course.
Oh Yeah!
I only still visit for their weekly listing of gaming podcasts and topics.
Is anyone feeling the same way towards ENWorld? And do you have any suggestions to "buff" Pathfinder discussions there?
-Peter
Well, there's the perception that Paizo listens to its customer boards in a way that WotC does not, which means that ENWorlders, like myself, come here to discuss their ideas and advocate for certain positions. When it comes to 4e, my perception is that WotC could care less what I think, so I stay at ENWorld, where I can join a good conversation. (And, for the record, I don't really go in their 4e sub-forum.)
If you want more conversations about Pathfinder there, check the big controversies on these boards and start talking about those issues there (c.f. sorcerer still crippled thread.)
Not a conspiracy.
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I've just started back to ENworld again after a 4 year haitus. There is no doubt the atmosphere has changed... a lot. Still, it seems the best place at the moment to find out about the pending GSL. A lot has to do with where you choose to hang out there I think. Also, when it comes to the new Pathfinder forum, the only way to make it work as anything other than a 2nd class area is to post there upon occasion.
Somebody send that man a no-prize!
I want a baldy.
On-Topic - Ive been going to ENworld less and less myself.
I've just started back to ENworld again after a 4 year haitus. There is no doubt the atmosphere has changed... a lot. Still, it seems the best place at the moment to find out about the pending GSL. A lot has to do with where you choose to hang out there I think. Also, when it comes to the new Pathfinder forum, the only way to make it work as anything other than a 2nd class area is to post there upon occasion.
Both good points Wicht. I say that as someone thinking of terms of their responsibility to make for positive change.
I guess part of the confusion about ENWorld that I have, because I had never gone there prior to first becoming a Paizoan (just coming back to the hobby after a decade).. I had this impression it was supposed to be a really unbaised and neutral RPG discussion area
(some of that impression coming from the Ennie awards, which I'd never heard of before either)
When I take ENWorld as a WOTC / DnD fansite, it seems fine. When I take it beyond anything besides that.. eh.. not so much.
I guess I don't trust the site, to be honest. And that might be entirely my problem and my misperception, and I'm willing to accept that as a critique of me.. But I don't trust it other than to be a very devoted PRO-WOTC fansite.
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I guess I don't trust the site, to be honest. And that might be entirely my problem and my misperception, and I'm willing to accept that as a critique of me.. But I don't trust it other than to be a very devoted PRO-WOTC fansite.
As to trusting the site,... I'm not sure how you trust a site. It is really nothing more than a collection of people. Same as this site. The 4e section of it seems incredibly pro 4e. But there are certainly people on it who are not all in favor of 4e including, I think, Eric Noah himself. I trust the opinions of some of those people and not others.
The Mods on ENWorld have the task of policing thousands of posts and they have certainly become a little more heavy handed than what I remember. However, I can sympathize with the problem. The population there has become very big.
The ENworld I remember from years ago had more of a feeling similar to this site. It was easier to know most of the frequent posters. There was more of a close knit feeling in the community. Now it just feels really big and maybe a little less friendly.
I guess I don't see anything wrong with the 4th Edition section that they are showing frequently. Though I have no plans of going to 4th Edition, there are many people that are. I remember being excited with 3rd Edition and looked forward to each bit of information that I could. With 15,000 downloads of Pathfinder Alpha Release 1, hopefully, there will be more news on the En World site for Pathfinder too, if for no reason other than to give it more face time to those that may not be aware of what it is. I hope than anyone that is still interested in the 3.0/3.5 rules at least gets the chance to see what is being done with Pathfinder.
In defense of ENWorld, didn't the site develop around Eric Noah's passion for tracking the upcoming 3rd Edition D&D? That is when I found it after a hiatus from D&D, so maybe that is Post Facto Logic. But it seems logical for them to talk about the 4th Edition.
The Alpha release got posted this AM. Is it possible that no one notified them about the Alpha 2 release? The community has become pretty divided. In the old days someone would have sent ENWorld an email. I don't think they do as much research as Eric Noah (no insult intended). A lot the Paizo people do not visit ENWorld much anymore.
Anyways, I think we need to acknowledge that in a 'war', people tend to vilify the enemy. Now for the record, I like the PRPG and am buying it all. 4th Edition, I am trying to resist but I really like the promised web support. Also I am a sucker for any new RPG system. Am I the only one who buys new systems just to give them a read?
Note: Did you notice that posters clearly state their side of the war so someone does not call them a name? Or at least they get called the right name.
4th Edition, I am trying to resist but I really like the promised web support. Also I am a sucker for any new RPG system. Am I the only one who buys new systems just to give them a read?
Nope you're not the only one who does this. I've about half a dozen RPG's on my shelf that I'll never play, just picked them up to read or have because of the artwork, or setting, or game fiction inside.
As for ENworld. I've lurked there off and on over the years. Never felt like posting. It's definitely giving more coverage to 4th edition in their news section. It also seems to have a 4th bias, but as others have posted, it's due to the amount of individuals posting there who are eager (or curious) about 4th. The coverage I would trump up to being due to 4th edition being the next big thing to come out. People are excited over it.
I don't post there because I never feel like I have anything to add to the conversation that hasn't already been said. There's no real point for me too.
I'd be curious to see what happens to the OGL boards once the GSL is released and more companies decide to go with one or the other. If a vast majority of companies decide to go with the OGL, i think those boards could become much more active and get more coverage in the future. If they don't (and the companies do stick to the OGL) then I'd say ENWorld does have an unfair bias.
Strange personal thought: Just realized that 4th edition is comeing out at the end of a chapter of my life, and I started 3rd at the 'beginning' of this particular chapter. Hmmm, strange.
I submitted the news item on Release 2 last night after seeing our very own "Erik Mona Presents!" posting there about the lack of news on their front page. So, it looks like the item just wasn't submitted. So I guess we need to get over there and submit Pathfinder developments as they occur--and not presume that ENWorld will pick up on them as quickly as they do 4e stuff.
-Peter
PS: And thanks for the no-prize, Vic! My life is now complete!
As to trusting the site,... I'm not sure how you trust a site.
I really have to peer down my glasses at this statement, Wicht, because it seems so bloody obvious. Even if you don't agree with my perception.
You trust a site based on evenly it reports the news, and how even the moderation is. The site shouldn't be faulted for the comments that individual posters make, but how it conducts itself from an administrative and moderation based perspective. If the reporting and the moderation is even handed, AND the majority of the users still favored one side over the other- then I would concede that you can trust the site.
So I guess I'm saying that the reporting and the moderation is not even. At the same time before you, or anybody else, jumps on my case- I said up front that is my subjective perception and it might be incorrect. If I'm wrong, it's my loss, because surely EN World will thrive without me.
It is really nothing more than a collection of people. Same as this site.
Ah, but I was referring to the managers of the site, not the users. You're mixing the two groups and then drawing that as a basis of comparison to what I said.
The Mods on ENWorld have the task of policing thousands of posts and they have certainly become a little more heavy handed than what I remember. However, I can sympathize with the problem. The population there has become very big.
I will completely concede that point. It does make the job more difficult, and more prone to unintended mistakes, or even the need for quick decisions with no time for reconsideration.
If you were to ask me for a lot of specific examples, I couldn't give 'em. Off the top of my head, I notice if there is a negative thread about the GSL, it's jettisoned off to the OGL-F sub-board. If it's a positive thread about the GSL, they're content to leave in the main section. Little things like that don't go unnoticed. Again, it's my perception.
Finally, as a side note, it really doesn't have much to do with how I feel about 4th Edition. I'm still curious about it. I've still got it on Pre-Order. I'm looking over some of their campaign settings, and if WOTC starts to doing APs I might take a look at 'em. Paizo is in no danger of losing me as a customer though.
All that said, do I think EN World is biased towards WOTC from the top down? Absolutely.
I only half-jokingly think that WOTC should be able claim donations made to keep EN World's servers going and moderators attending Con functions, as an annual business tax write off.
In defense of ENWorld, didn't the site develop around Eric Noah's passion for tracking the upcoming 3rd Edition D&D? That is when I found it after a hiatus from D&D, so maybe that is Post Facto Logic. But it seems logical for them to talk about the 4th Edition.
It sure does. I'm not assuming your comment was directed specifically at me, but I'll pretend it was for the sake of discussion.
When I take ENWorld as a WOTC / DnD fansite, it seems fine.
If what you're describing is how EN World identifies itself.. as a new/fansite for DnD, specifically 4th Edition, I think it's marvelous. Awesome site, chock full of goodness.
If it identifies itself as something beyond that, something more like gaming news, there I think it starts to stretch whatever it has in terms of a purpose or mission statement.
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As to trusting the site,... I'm not sure how you trust a site.I really have to peer down my glasses at this statement, Wicht, because it seems so bloody obvious. Even if you don't agree with my perception.
You trust a site based on evenly it reports the news, and how even the moderation is. The site shouldn't be faulted for the comments that individual posters make, but how it conducts itself from an administrative and moderation based perspective. If the reporting and the moderation is even handed, AND the majority of the users still favored one side over the other- then I would concede that you can trust the site.
I guess its just a different way of looking at things then. When I think of ENWorld, I don't think about the moderators first, I think about the posters at large. I also tend not to think of ENWorld as a news site first. I see it as a community of role-players in which you can often find news. Perhaps it is just because I was an active part of the community there at one time.
As for the 4e news slant, WotC is the big dog and many more posters (being the one responsible for reporting scoops) are likely to be on the lookout for news from WotC. The solution is for Pathfinders to report anything they think is a Paizo scoop.
All that said, do I think EN World is biased towards WOTC from the top down?
Who do you identify as being the top dog at ENworld? I'm curious to know.
I guess its just a different way of looking at things then. When I think of ENWorld, I don't think about the moderators first, I think about the posters at large. I also tend not to think of ENWorld as a news site first. I see it as a community of role-players in which you can often find news. Perhaps it is just because I was an active part of the community there at one time.
As for the 4e news slant, WotC is the big dog and many more posters (being the one responsible for reporting scoops) are likely to be on the lookout for news from WotC. The solution is for Pathfinders to report anything they think is a Paizo scoop.
Okay, I can meet you halfway. I do perceive the site differently, and yours might be a truer perception to the roots that En World grew out of.
Who do you identify as being the top dog at ENworld? I'm curious to know.
Hmmm... this is one those questions I hesitate at answering because I feel a gotchya coming on...
::shrug::
Okay, what the hell... Morrus.
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Who do you identify as being the top dog at ENworld? I'm curious to know.Hmmm... this is one those questions I hesitate at answering because I feel a gotchya coming on...
::shrug::
Okay, what the hell... Morrus.
No gotcha, just wondering.
I do have to say, for the record, from his posts I haven't seen him as a real vocal champion of 4e.
First of all, it went up on Saturday at the top of the page, rather than competing with the deluge of information posted on Fridays.
Secondly, isn't there some major gaming event this weekend? Last I checked, the moderators of this site were behind on talking with the posters on these boards because of that.
I really think this is just a case of different sites having different purposes, not an animosity/indifference thing. If you want to give the Pathfinder RPG a bigger profile over there, go start threads over there.
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Of course it's bias, they track the things they're interested and post about them. If no one sends them a news tip, they're not going to post about it if they're not interested in it. It's not like they're paid bloggers.
The alpha 2 release is only news to people that care about Pathfinder or Pathfinder RPG.
Now for the record, I like the PRPG and am buying it all. 4th Edition, I am trying to resist but I really like the promised web support.
I'm with you. I have had few of the problems people claim to have with 3.5.. for rules that don't make sense I avoid them or make sure I understand them BEFORE I get to the game table.
3P offers a lot of promise and I've got friends playing the Alpha but none of them know if they'll buy it with 4e coming out first.
And like you, the 4e online offerings hold A LOT of appeal. If the online tools are as easy to use as they claim, if it's as connective for people online to play, then it could be a really fun experience... if the software works and keeps being supported. :)
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Also I am a sucker for any new RPG system. Am I the only one who buys new systems just to give them a read?
I just bought Victorian Age Vampire off of Amazon because I love the Victorian era (recently got a lot more into it due to some non-fiction books I've been reading). Unfortunately my current group isn't all that into the WoD games so I doubt I'll ever get to play or run it.
See this thread:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=224590
enworld has become worthless. To their defense I have to say that the prosecution of 3e fans isn't as bad there as it is on the more official wotc boards, but that's not exactly an accomplishment.
To answer a few questions/complaints in this thread: the title bar of the main page of EN World reads: "EN World- Morrus' D&D/4th Edition/d20 News." Morrus is the bigwig. The Pathfinder RPG is not (officially) D&D, 4th Edition, or d20. Complaining that EN World's not supporting/stumping Pathfinder enough would be similar to me complaining that paizo.com doesn't cover enough WotC/4th Edition news.
The two sites are what they are. Both sites seem very friendly, for the most part, at least until you get into topics that deal with the edition war.
Again, I don't see what the big deal is. Use their general and rules forums like I do, and you don't have to deal with the edition war. Good conversation and debate on how to run games can be found there, still. I really think this is an over-reaction.
To answer a few questions/complaints in this thread:
But really, no one has any questions in this thread. You're responding to the opinions of others. Those that are voicing complaints aren't really seeking an offical response, otherwise they'd direct those complaints to the proper authorities.
People are talking about another board, expressing their views about it, and you don't like what they're saying. Be honest now.
And that's okay. Your opinion has as much merit as anybody else's. Maybe you think the opinions expressed on misperception, or are just wrong. That being the case, you can't come here and expect to 'correct' people with any degree of success. All you can do is try to persuade and maybe educate. Maybe people will change their minds, maybe they won't.
Nevertheless, you can't answer anything, because this thread has asked nothing of you but your opinion. If you wish to speak from a position of authority you have to establish that you have some.
the title bar of the main page of EN World reads: "EN World- Morrus' D&D/4th Edition/d20 News." Morrus is the bigwig.
Exactly my point. Reading to the title bar is just patronizing, like none of us realized what it said. You start out trying to defend EN World by making others feel stupid. Having had this pointed out to you, are you going to still feel surprised if you're not taken too seriously?
The Pathfinder RPG is not (officially) D&D, 4th Edition, or d20. Complaining that EN World's not supporting/stumping Pathfinder enough would be similar to me complaining that paizo.com doesn't cover enough WotC/4th Edition news.
A fairly legitimate point that might not get as much attention due to your introduction.
The two sites are what they are.
Yes they are. I can't speak for everyone that had a negative perspective towards EN World, but once (through polite conversation) it was made clear that it's a fansite dedicated first and primarily to 4th edition, I really eased up on my criticism of it. That is, I thought it was something else, and I was wrong. EN World, for what it is, is pretty cool. If I want to know about 4th Edition (and I do sometimes) I know where to go.
What you and roguerogue don't seem to understand that there was not one statement put forth here that was really presented as absolute fact. They were all pretty much subjective opinions. The OP asked for opinions. Nobody is pushing anything as a 'fact' around here.
If EN World Authorities really care what I think, they can speak to those perceptions, and maybe try to change them. Realistically, I don't expect them to care, and I don't even hold that against them. I might not care if I were in their shoes. They'll just be fine without me, and when I get curious enough to look- it's still there for me to read anyway.
Actually what really makes me curious now is why you guys get so threatened by this thread? Are you identifying with EN World so closely that a couple rather blase posts, that don't speak of EN World in exactly glowing terms, hurts you? So that now it's your self-esteem that needs defending?
This is snarkier than intended, but I'm not changing it. You're just telling everybody that they think wrong. That's great if you want to irritate, but if you want to change a perception you have to do better than that.
Again, I don't see what the big deal is. Use their general and rules forums like I do, and you don't have to deal with the edition war. Good conversation and debate on how to run games can be found there, still. I really think this is an over-reaction.
I agree with you in this post. This isn't a big deal. None of the critics are on a crusade, and if one guy wants to not go there any more- that's his choice. EN World will go on without him too.
It's a big a deal as anybody, yourself included, wants to make it for themselves.
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Out of curiousity, in what way is Pathfinder not a d20 game? It uses the d20 base as given in the SRD. Is it the fact that it does not rely on the use of the d20 license (which is ending anyway)?
Pathfinder is a d20 game. The approach at Enworld is for d20 games that aren't core D&D (of whatever edition) to be discussed in their own subforum. Pathfinder is no exception to that.
(Personally, I think of Pathfinder as the successor to D&D and I see the two as interchangeable - although I am aware that this isn't actually the case as far as the brand goes. I'd have no trouble with Pathfinder being in the General RPG forum at Enworld, but can understand why that's not the case.)
I agree with all of that.
Perhaps I should reword the question. Why would someone claim/say that Pathfinder was not a d20 game?
Recently, the availability of Pathfinder Release 2 failed to appear as news on the front page of ENWorld (on or near the same day that someone's video review of the WotC website was listed as news). I used to be an avid reader of ENWorld news and boards, but since the announcement of Pathfinder RPG, I find the site to be increasingly uninteresting to the point of irrelevance.
Most of my "Eh"World feeling stems from how great the Paizo boards are. The fan interaction is great, the discussions are topical and lively, and the participation of the Paizo staff members is nothing short of astounding. (I am reminded of the early days of the Marvel Bullpen in terms of positive fan-company feelings here---well, at least as the Bullpen appeared in legend if not in reality)
Of course, the pushing off of Paizo to the OGL forum also had an immediate impact on my ENWorld reading--as despite the formality of the decision, it seemed an immediate relegation to second-citizen status. But while I think my reasons for a lack of interest in ENWorld are understandable, I think it's not going to help Pathfinder marketing for fans like myself not to visit there and engage in the same lively discussions we do here.
Is anyone feeling the same way towards ENWorld? And do you have any suggestions to "buff" Pathfinder discussions there?
-Peter
You find ENWorld to be hostile to Pathfinder discussion? IMHO Pathfinder fans are reaping what they have sown. Or at least, what the most militant among them have sown. When it comes discussing 4E here, the discussion nearly always gets buried under a dogpile of irrational insults and fallacies, and worse for some reason the usual suspects get a pass. It has driven me, despite being a customer and fan of many Paizo's products, to take 4E discussions to ENWorld; why would you expect that process to be a one-way street?
Intolerance breeds intolerance. Interesting how people don't seem to care until they are on the wrong side of matters.
To answer a few questions/complaints in this thread:But really, no one has any questions in this thread. You're responding to the opinions of others. Those that are voicing complaints aren't really seeking an offical response, otherwise they'd direct those complaints to the proper authorities.
Who do you identify as being the top dog at ENworld? I'm curious to know.Hmmm... this is one those questions I hesitate at answering because I feel a gotchya coming on...
You contradict yourself.
Seriously, a small part of my brain thought I was being economical by quoting what EN World's title bar says. It answered both the question of who's in charge of EN World and what the site's focus is about. It does come across as pretty patronizing...I apologize.
That said, I don't see where one post in this thread makes me some sort of insecure, rabid, EN World diehard. It IS my favorite RPG web site and forums, enough so that I'll occasionally post to defend or promote it a bit.
Yeah, it's pro-4E. Not really a surprise--it's simply following the original spirit of Eric Noah's 3rd Edition site, gathering rumors and tidbits about the upcoming new D&D edition.
Creative Director
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Just to weigh in here for a bit... I don't think ENworld's hostile to Paizo either. ENworld's focus isn't Paizo, and it's not Pathifnder; it is hand more or less HAS been D&D from the start. I can certainly understand some folk being put off by that, but I'd rather not see anti-ENworld crusading here at Paizo, just as I'd rather not see anti-4th edition crusading. If ENworld isn't for you, fine; but don't start insulting them here. That's not what these boards are for, and I'd like to think that our community's above the flames.
Don't make me smurf this thread! Oops. TOO LATE! :-)
I'm guessing that you're referring to the post above by Profession Smith 6 ranks. I don't know in what context that poster is using the term "d20", so I wouldn't like to guess :-)
Yeah, that was lazy/dumb of me too. I was referring to the d20 license and EN World being about "d20 News."
I don't find Enworld hostile to Pathfinder at all, so I'm not sure what you mean by Pathfinder fans reaping anything, nor do I agree with other posters who claim that Pathfinder gets short shrift over there. Pathfinder belongs in the d20 subforum, which incidentally was renamed to include Pathfinder in its name. No other d20 game received that honour.
There are rude folks on all forums, here and over there. But the moderation of Enworld and the moderation here has been, afaict, pretty decent and unbiased.
Frankly, I don't really find ENWorld to be that hostile to Pathfinder either, but it is charge that I often see levelled here. I do, however, find the 4E forums *here* to be hostile toward 4E, which is frustrating, because with the announcement of Pathfinder RPG (and the existence of separate forums devoted to such) one would hope people would live and let live. But for some reason people still feel the need to pop in and rip 4E as their "contribution," no matter how irrelevant, to whatever discussion is at hand. Sad, really, and a disservice for Paizo customers who happen to want to discuss 4E. As a customer (formerly a charter superscriber; no longer), I've been insulted and told to go to ENWorld, with nary a peep from Paizo folks. Personal attacks have become the order of the day in the 4E forum. That doesn't fit my idea of effective moderation.
I get that this is Paizo's site, so as someone who looks forward to 4E I expect to be in the miniority. But if tolerance is the truly a test of the majority, the majority here (or at least a small group of vocal folks who claim to represent them) has resoundingly failed that test.
And so I have little sympathy for those unsatisfied with the Pathfinder discussion on ENWorld.
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I do, however, find the 4E forums *here* to be hostile toward 4E, which is frustrating, because with the announcement of Pathfinder RPG (and the existence of separate forums devoted to such) one would hope people would live and let live.
There are, to be fair, only a handfull of really die-hard anti-4e people on this site. Just because they pop up in every 4e thread does not mean the rest of us agree with them. Nor is it fair to say that they represent us anymore than it would be fair to say that you represent us.
Each of us stands alone representing only ourselves (except of course for those who do in fact work for Paizo and so represent the company).