Just a specific example from tonight's playtest. What do you think would be the CR for a hobgoblin warrior 2/ adept 2?
I'm thinking CR 1, but that's more eyeballing than following a formula.
I thought NPC classes were (CR=[level -1])... so a War2/Adp2 would be CR 3. Possible 2 if he wasn't very good at what he did.
Ah, but in Pathfinder, it's level -2. It's just those pesky npc classes that muck things up.
I would not count the first level of warrior in the equation. THe monster write-up for Hobgoblin assumes a Level 1 Warrior Hobgoblin. So that would leave him as a CR 1 (1/2 for hobgoblin and level 1 warrior + 2nd level of warrior + 2 levels of adept - 2).
Going off the pathfinder rules for CR, I would say Challenge Rating 1. The MM Hobgoblin doesn't get a bonus from it's race to CR as far as I can see, and it only has NPC classes levels. So 4 NPC levels - 3 = CR1. That seems about right to me. I don't imagine such character being much of a threat.
Hobgoblins do indeed get a boost to CR from race - a human warrior is *not* CR 1, while a hobgoblin warrior is. I can't possibly see how you're stacking 3 more hit dice on that and leaving it as CR 1.
CR 2, easily.
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Paradisio is actually correct. It would be a CR 1 monster. Honestly, an Adept is below par and the Warrior is the only real plus to the character. This character would fit the Shaman role of the monster party. SO you would probably see an encounter looking like this for a party of 3rd level.
1x Hobgoblin Shaman(Adept 2/Warrior 2) CR 1
4x Hobgoblin Warrior(Warrior 1) CR 1/4
1x Hobgoblin Leader(Fighter 3) CR 1
Now that's a combat that won't last 3 rounds. That will use up the players resources nicely and give them something to gloat about for a while.
Hobgoblins do indeed get a boost to CR from race - a human warrior is *not* CR 1, while a hobgoblin warrior is. I can't possibly see how you're stacking 3 more hit dice on that and leaving it as CR 1.
CR 2, easily.
By my copy of the MM, it says CR: 1/2 for a hobgoblin warrior. Which is in line for a level 1 warrior.
Pathfind does level-3 for NPC classes and Level-2 for PC classes (page 103). A Hobgoblin adept 2/warrior 2 would be a CR 1 encounter under the current Pathfinder rules. I would say that is a fairly good match to four 1st level characters.
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Lessee.
A hobgoblin Adept 2/Warrior 2 would have an average hp of 16 without Constitution modifiers. Since a hobgoblin receives +2 to Con score, let's assume he gets a constitution score of 14. This would come up with 24 hit points, +3 BAB... thus possibly a decent AC with all the wealth given by the NPC levels, an attack bonus of +6 and damage around 1d8+3, and a few spells to boost.
Yup, CR 1 would do nicely.
Lessee.
A hobgoblin Adept 2/Warrior 2 would have an average hp of 16 without Constitution modifiers. Since a hobgoblin receives +2 to Con score, let's assume he gets a constitution score of 14. This would come up with 24 hit points, +3 BAB... thus possibly a decent AC with all the wealth given by the NPC levels, an attack bonus of +6 and damage around 1d8+3, and a few spells to boost.
Yup, CR 1 would do nicely.
You make a good arguement, but against a party of four the hobgoblin in question could be a CR 1 encounter by itself.
A 1st level party of four characters would likely have a fighter with 12 hp, a cleric and rogue with 9 hp each, and a wizard with 7 hp. That is four attacks with a total hp of 37 (none of this counts bonus starting hp or hp from favorite class).
Under Pathfinder, the fighter could easily have a +4 attack bonus, a rogue with Weapon Finesse could match that, the cleric would likely have a touch attack power from a domain, and the wizard would have a school power that would be useful in the fight.
It would be a tough fight, but I think it would even out. Still, I think I am going to have run this one just to be sure.
I'll be testing this soon, I'm running the Shackled City AP which starts off with 3 level 2 NPCs vs the group of 6 level 1s + 1 NPC supporting. But to keep the games CR equal to the base games they'll now be level 4 NPCs, which is a pretty big jump. They also have toughness which got upgraded quite a bit, so they have pretty high ATK and HP, I ran a test scenario and it was about 50/50 with one of them vs the party's fighter, so I guess it's alright since they are outnumbered 2:1. I'm unsure If I should boost their equipment as well.
I would like to see this test. I have done similar things with my group and found that the fights are harder but they equal out nicely and allow the players to feel more successful. I'm waiting for your results.
Will do then, I'm planning on posting some pretty large playtest posts, I think the changes to the CR system haven't been commented on much, I'm hoping I can give some good feedback on them.
Regardless, do you think I should upgrade their equipment to be equivalent to a level 4 npc?
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Well from my experience, I custom build my NPC's and don't use the guidelines detailed in the DMG but for the purposes of this test, I would say go for the whole shebang. Give them their equivalent Equipment. Even if the PC's end up with some of this stuff, it wouldn't be too game breaking because of the differences between PC wealth and NPC wealth.
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You make a good arguement, but against a party of four the hobgoblin in question could be a CR 1 encounter by itself.Lessee.
A hobgoblin Adept 2/Warrior 2 would have an average hp of 16 without Constitution modifiers. Since a hobgoblin receives +2 to Con score, let's assume he gets a constitution score of 14. This would come up with 24 hit points, +3 BAB... thus possibly a decent AC with all the wealth given by the NPC levels, an attack bonus of +6 and damage around 1d8+3, and a few spells to boost.
Yup, CR 1 would do nicely.
Exactly! I always though CR 1 is supposed to be a suitable encounter against a 4 character party.
Challenger rating: This shows the average level of a party of adventurers for which one creature would make an encounter of moderate difficulty.
Thus the change to have NPCs with class levels have Level - 2 or 3 is a very welcomed change. However, I wonder how this would work on later levels. A Fighter 18 isn't really a match against a group of 16th level adventurers.
If a NPC's CR would be calculated (Level divided by 2), a 18th level fighter would result in CR 9. From this we all know it'd be too hazardous, and thus scrap the suggestion, despite having a 4th level fighter being CR 2, which is suitable.
Now that I think of it, different class levels should have different increase in CR. CR system should be considered a guide line, never a strict rule.
(Sorry for being so incoherent at times; I develop my ideas while typing.)
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Well from my experience, I custom build my NPC's and don't use the guidelines detailed in the DMG but for the purposes of this test, I would say go for the whole shebang. Give them their equivalent Equipment. Even if the PC's end up with some of this stuff, it wouldn't be too game breaking because of the differences between PC wealth and NPC wealth.
Actually I've noticed how ridiculously much lvl 2 NPCs have wealth. Interestingly, starting gold amounts and such are not found from SRD, so I can't really give a straight link, but I remember a lvl 2 NPC having 2000 gold pieces, whereas a normal PC has 900 gp.
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I know what you are talking about but the change happens at the next level. Using the PHB2 table.
Level 1 NPC PC
900 Starting Gold
Level 2 NPC PC
2000 900
Level 3 NPC PC
2500 2700
Level 4 NPC PC
3300 5400
So our monster here would have 3300 gp to spend on the gear that he would have for battle. This could be a single +1 item or several masterwork items witha few expendables that he will most likely use in the combat. That's nothing to really worry about.
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I know what you are talking about but the change happens at the next level. Using the PHB2 table.
Level 1 NPC PC
900 Starting Gold
Level 2 NPC PC
2000 900
Level 3 NPC PC
2500 2700
Level 4 NPC PC
3300 5400So our monster here would have 3300 gp to spend on the gear that he would have for battle. This could be a single +1 item or several masterwork items witha few expendables that he will most likely use in the combat. That's nothing to really worry about.
That's a pretty well equipped CR1. Fullplate with M/W weapon and Shield. Brutal.
How would you calculate the CR for a multi-class character who has both PC and NPC classes?
Would you apply the modifier that applies to the largest number of their classes? (Adept 3/fighter 2 gets -3 to CR)
What then would you do with an Adept 2/fighter 2?
How would you calculate the CR for a multi-class character who has both PC and NPC classes?
Would you apply the modifier that applies to the largest number of their classes? (Adept 3/fighter 2 gets -3 to CR)
What then would you do with an Adept 2/fighter 2?
I would use the PC method. It will not be a perfect match in some cases, but I think it works out in the long run.
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Next Friday, I'll be pitting my 4th level party of adventurers against a Kobold Tribe in their home underground. I think that this will be a great test for this new system. I just need to get something clarified: Does the Npc-3 stack with the Kobold's Npc-3? If so, I can use lots of the little weaklings. If not, I'll be creating some interesting trap and roaming monster encounters.
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Well this is the encounter I have developed for my Kobolds. It is designed for a party of 4 Fourth level PC's using Alpha 2's ruleset. This is an ambush encounter so the PC's are expected to be surprised.
6 Kobold Warriors(Warrior 1) CR 1/4 XP 100
3 Kobold Sneaks(Rogue 1) CR 1/3 XP 135
1 Kobold Shaman(Warrior 1/Adept 3) CR 1 XP 400
Total XP gained for party 1205
Total XP gained per player 301
That would be an interesting encounter because the kobolds would have a little magical aid from spells like Command and Bless while they could create flanking situtations for the rogues. Now these Kobolds are one shot kills but that shouldn't really be a problem to set up the situtations because of the sheer numbers. Another encounter I'm working on for this party looks like this so far.
1 Kobold Sorcerer(Sorcerer 6) CR 4 XP 1200
2 Kobold Mounted Guards(Warrior 4) CR 1 XP 400
2 Riding Dogs CR 1 XP 400
Total XP gained for the party 2800
Total XP gained per player 700
Now that would be a difficult battle and I think the PC's could take it on. It will drain them of just about everything they have but it would be a kobold fight they would remember for a long time.
What do you all think of this? I like how easy it is to make these NPC's and figure out how they would work together.