This whole mechanic is needlessly complex. Adding in what, 12 new spells? To emulate one or two? Terrible idea. If you're having problems in your game with polymorph you simply need a GM with a more firm hand and players that need to simply accept a GM ruling. To be honest, in years and years of gaming I've never run into a single problem with these spells, and have always loved the creative flexibility they bring to the game.
Also, think of the poor wizard who used to just have to memorize polymorph. . .now, he needs to decide, "Hrmm Form of Giant sounds good!. . . later that day, inside a cramped dungeon crawl tunnel they went through unexpectedly: "Gee, this giant form spell is gonna come in handy." I am completely and utterly opposed to this entire mechanic rework.
The changes to alter self are also unneccessary. 1 minute per level? Enhancement bonuses? Huh? Why aren't these size bonuses? Apparently some folks see this spell as being broken? Again, it comes down to the GM. "No, you do not have knowledge of the Ubermensch humanoid race that has 10 natural AC, fly of 120, burrow of 90, 12 arms and a bite attack! Why not? Because they don't exist in my world...and even if they did, too bad, I'm the GM and I don't want you breaking my game."
I know a lot of work and thought went into this change, but I hope that doesn't prevent the designers from taking an honest look at this mechanic and having the courage to scrap it.
In either event, I will be asking/recommending our group go with the old polymorph rules.
This whole mechanic is needlessly complex. Adding in what, 12 new spells? To emulate one or two? Terrible idea. If you're having problems in your game with polymorph you simply need a GM with a more firm hand and players that need to simply accept a GM ruling. To be honest, in years and years of gaming I've never run into a single problem with these spells, and have always loved the creative flexibility they bring to the game.
Also, think of the poor wizard who used to just have to memorize polymorph. . .now, he needs to decide, "Hrmm Form of Giant sounds good!. . . later that day, inside a cramped dungeon crawl tunnel they went through unexpectedly: "Gee, this giant form spell is gonna come in handy." I am completely and utterly opposed to this entire mechanic rework.
The changes to alter self are also unneccessary. 1 minute per level? Enhancement bonuses? Huh? Why aren't these size bonuses? Apparently some folks see this spell as being broken? Again, it comes down to the GM. "No, you do not have knowledge of the Ubermensch humanoid race that has 10 natural AC, fly of 120, burrow of 90, 12 arms and a bite attack! Why not? Because they don't exist in my world...and even if they did, too bad, I'm the GM and I don't want you breaking my game."
I know a lot of work and thought went into this change, but I hope that doesn't prevent the designers from taking an honest look at this mechanic and having the courage to scrap it.
In either event, I will be asking/recommending our group go with the old polymorph rules.
The key here is "firm hand". Not everybody has one! The need for these changes is because there had been many problems with the current rules. The fact that you don't agree is good for you and your players but many people need these changes to be able to cope!
I think most people that move towards Pathfinder will have something about the old system that they prefer and I think thats good. Remember, these are "ideas" to play-test, not set-in-stone rules.
Also, think of the poor wizard who used to just have to memorize polymorph. . .now, he needs to decide, "Hrmm Form of Giant sounds good!. . . later that day, inside a cramped dungeon crawl tunnel they went through unexpectedly: "Gee, this giant form spell is gonna come in handy." I am completely and utterly opposed to this entire mechanic rework.
Just pointing out again: there are still spells that allow you to assume a variety of forms (as Polymorph used to do). Just because they're called "Polymorph Other I" and "Polymorph Other II" (not to mention Shapechange) doesn't mean they can't be used on oneself.
Director of Games
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Just because they're called "Polymorph Other I" and "Polymorph Other II" (not to mention Shapechange) doesn't mean they can't be used on oneself.Interesting point. It begs the question: why aren't they just called polymorph I and polymorph II?
This is true. The spell was broken down into its composites precisely to help GMs codify it. If you have a firm hand on what you allow and don't allow you PCs to do with the spell, that's great, and you can certainly keep using the old spell (I won't come to your house and force you... probably). These changes were enacted to bring some sanity to the spell. Right now it is based off a system that does not work for the purpose that the spell is trying to use it for. Monsters are not created keeping PCs abilities in mind, leaving the spell open to incredible levels of abuse (even if you don't allow crazy forms, some of the more common ones are incredibly good for a spell of that level).
All that said, I suppose calling them polymorph instead of polymorph other does make some bit of sense.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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The key here is "firm hand". Not everybody has one! The need for these changes is because there had been many problems with the current rules. The fact that you don't agree is good for you and your players but many people need these changes to be able to cope!
Also for Convention play, where players will point at the rules as written and say they can do this or that. For fairness across the board, there is less range for house-ruling or GM interpretation at Conventions - sure the GM's rule is final, but you pretty much have to go with what's written in the book (unless there are specific campaign guidelines stating otherwise).
This whole mechanic is needlessly complex. Adding in what, 12 new spells? To emulate one or two? Terrible idea.
Marvelous idea. The "one or two" spells let you do practically anything - they were like lesser limited wish spells with no XP cost. The ability to become nearly any creature was much to vast for "one or two" spells. A single spell should not have that kind of scope or depth, certainly not without a cost.
If you're having problems in your game with polymorph you simply need a GM with a more firm hand and players that need to simply accept a GM ruling. To be honest, in years and years of gaming I've never run into a single problem with these spells, and have always loved the creative flexibility they bring to the game.
Also, think of the poor wizard who used to just have to memorize polymorph. . .now, he needs to decide, "Hrmm Form of Giant sounds good!. . . later that day, inside a cramped dungeon crawl tunnel they went through unexpectedly: "Gee, this giant form spell is gonna come in handy." I am completely and utterly opposed to this entire mechanic rework.
This comes up with every other spell in the game. Why not this one?
The changes to alter self are also unneccessary. 1 minute per level? Enhancement bonuses? Huh? Why aren't these size bonuses? Apparently some folks see this spell as being broken? Again, it comes down to the GM. "No, you do not have knowledge of the Ubermensch humanoid race that has 10 natural AC, fly of 120, burrow of 90, 12 arms and a bite attack! Why not? Because they don't exist in my world...and even if they did, too bad, I'm the GM and I don't want you breaking my game."
So you're saying you don't want the creators to do this with the spell because you've done it yourself? I don't understand this. I like it being in the book already, because it means I just have to read the text.
I don't like the "one or two" spells because with "one or two" spells somebody can emulate one of the pivotal elements of the Druid class, elements that they have to spend many levels learning how to develop. So you can do it for a single spell? Great.
Now the spell-based shapeshifters have spells that work like all the other spells. They're limited in scope, effective at level, have clearly-defined results, and may leave you high-and-dry if it's inappropriate to your situation.
EDIT: For tone. I came off a little more snotty than I had intended to. My bad. [URL=smurf][/URL]
There really is no way to make any sort of gross shapechange simple. Just ways to simplify it from how complex it can be. Creating groups of progressively powerful spells is probably one of the best ways. It also allows for lesser shapechanging without having to break out the biggest guns at higher level. If you can get through the encounter with Shape of the Beast I why would you trot out Shape of the Beast III?
-Weylin Stormcrowe
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All that said, I suppose calling them polymorph instead of polymorph other does make some bit of sense.Just because they're called "Polymorph Other I" and "Polymorph Other II" (not to mention Shapechange) doesn't mean they can't be used on oneself.Interesting point. It begs the question: why aren't they just called polymorph I and polymorph II?
That would be a great idea Jason. Save the cows! ;)
I really like the polymorph solutions put forth by Rich Burlew. I'm not sure if these have been explored or not.
CJ