If I'm reincarnated as, say, a bugbear, do I end up with a level adjustment? I'm ending up with some very nice stat boosts, natural AC, and darkvision... surely that merits some adjustment? If so, how does it work? Do I drop class levels in addition to the level loss for being reincarnated?
Haven't looked at it; does it still have such wonderful choices as 'Jelly Banded Newt' and 'Badger' as options?
My understanding is that you remake your character ENTIRELY when being reincarnated, but haven't read the rules to see if that's the way it works in 3.P.
If I'm reading it correctly, you keep your character (minus 1 level), add ability score adjustments and miscellaneous abilities (natural armor, Ex, etc.), and you're done. I think I must be missing something...
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Reincarnate is a mess. It leaves so many questions unanswered like this, it's not funny. The spell needs a complete rewrite (which is on my list of feedback issues).
In 3.0 I've had a human reincarnated as a satyr, a human reincarnated as a goblin, and a camel reincarnated as an azer (don't ask). In 3.5 I've had a bugbear reincarnated as a goblin, and a human reinarnated as an elf. Most of these reincarnations ended up as headaches for me.
Things that reincarnate doesn't address
- which abilities of the race do you gain? Mental vs physical not clear
- gaining a LA from race
- losing an LA from race
- gaining racial HD
- having racial HD, getting reincarnated, and having these HD still
I'll see if I can offer some more concrete suggestions, but this is one of the things that grabbed me on my first read-through as 'still needs to be fixed'.
In 3.0 I've had a human reincarnated as a satyr...
Interestingly, that's why the new reincarnate caught my eye. Some years ago, my half-elf ranger 3/cleric 5/runecaster 3 was reincarnated as a satyr. Now, with 3 racial HD, he's an ECL 18 character with CL 8th, and essentially unplayable. So I ended up just dropping him, told the DM, "he's an NPC now, because this just doesn't work."
If the new reincarnate drops the racial HD, then he'd be ECL 15 and I could probably do OK with that. If it drops the racial HD and LA, then he's kind of overpowered. But from the description, I don't know WHAT exactly happens.
Any further thoughts on this? Anyone? Bulmahn? Bueller... Bueller?
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Any further thoughts on this? Anyone? Bulmahn? Bueller... Bueller?
In our game, the satyr changed his career path, and eventually became a shadowdancer. We used a Savage Species style progression, where the character gradually gained his Satyr HD and abilities. But that's complex, and should remain in the realm of house rules.
I've given this some thought, and I think that reincarnation should exist, but I have no simple solution, other than eliminating all non LA +0 / 0 HD choices, which removes a lot of flavor.
At least they aren't turning into badgers ... :)
Any further thoughts on this? Anyone? Bulmahn? Bueller... Bueller?We used a Savage Species style progression, where the character gradually gained his Satyr HD and abilities. But that's complex, and should remain in the realm of house rules. I think that reincarnation should exist, but I have no simple solution, other than eliminating all non LA +0 / 0 HD choices, which removes a lot of flavor. At least they aren't turning into badgers ... :)
I agree on all points; Savage Species progression is a pain in the neck (especially if the character specifically didn't want to be a satyr in the first place), and doesn't address the fact that with racial HD and level adjustments, your character is totally inept for his or her supposed "ECL." I'd hate to get rid of the flavor, too. I might just eliminate racial HD for all options, and go with the straight LA as listed in the MM.
Thanks for your input!
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Any further thoughts on this? Anyone? Bulmahn? Bueller... Bueller?We used a Savage Species style progression, where the character gradually gained his Satyr HD and abilities. But that's complex, and should remain in the realm of house rules. I think that reincarnation should exist, but I have no simple solution, other than eliminating all non LA +0 / 0 HD choices, which removes a lot of flavor. At least they aren't turning into badgers ... :)I agree on all points; Savage Species progression is a pain in the neck (especially if the character specifically didn't want to be a satyr in the first place), and doesn't address the fact that with racial HD and level adjustments, your character is totally inept for his or her supposed "ECL." I'd hate to get rid of the flavor, too. I might just eliminate racial HD for all options, and go with the straight LA as listed in the MM.
Thanks for your input!
Well, a thought ... the idea of reincarnation is that you are reborn. How about this?
* if a character is reincarnated, roll on a racial table
* they keep their Alignment, Int, Wis, and Cha, but nothing else - throw away everything else about the character.
* the character starts at '1st level', and levels up to their current level -1, gaining a level per day, either racial HD, LA, or class level
* they can rebuy their skills, feats, class levels, etc, or go off in a new direction.
Would that work?
* if a character is reincarnated, roll on a racial table
* they keep their Alignment, Int, Wis, and Cha, but nothing else - throw away everything else about the character.
* the character starts at '1st level', and levels up to their current level -1, gaining a level per day, either racial HD, LA, or class level
* they can rebuy their skills, feats, class levels, etc, or go off in a new direction.Would that work?
Hmmm... that's an interesting idea! Gives you all kinds of options instead of just "sticking" you into something you don't like. I'll have to think about that one (hopefully, if we tenatively houserule it, Jason won't turn around and rewrite us out of it again!)
Thanks!
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Would that work?
Hmmm... that's an interesting idea! Gives you all kinds of options instead of just "sticking" you into something you don't like. I'll have to think about that one (hopefully, if we tenatively houserule it, Jason won't turn around and rewrite us out of it again!)
Thanks!
I thought of something else that would be appropriate ...
* Pick two of your old character's highest skills and grant a +2 racial bonus to those skills, as your foggy memories of your former life still aid you.
The more I think about this, the more I like it. It basically short-cuts what I had to do with Savage Species style progressions, level retraining, and the like ...
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If I'm reincarnated as, say, a bugbear, do I end up with a level adjustment? I'm ending up with some very nice stat boosts, natural AC, and darkvision... surely that merits some adjustment? If so, how does it work? Do I drop class levels in addition to the level loss for being reincarnated?
edit: Hang on, I forgot about losing a level. That changes things considerably because you're already changing your XP total.
My revised take on it: You get a level adjustment. You keep your class levels but lose 1. You gain all normal traits listed for a character of that race, including racial hit dice. Your XP total changes to the exact amount you would need to qualify for your current levels + racial HD + LA.
In the revised example, a human fighter who had just gained 5th level, reincarnated as a bugbear, would be a 4th level bugbear fighter + 3 racial hit dice, an 8th level character. He would have the minimum of 28,000xp for 8th level.
(Losing level adjustment and racial HD then works the same way. If the bugbear immediately got killed again and reincarnated as an elf, he would be a 3rd level elf fighter with 3,000xp. Ow. It looks as if he just lost 25,000xp, but it's easy come, easy go: he didn't actually lose any more than if he had been reincarnated the first time as LA +0.)
Level adjustments get wonky with the physical-only attribute changes in any case.
Really, the spell needs some major surgery.
Agreed. This whole question came up at the end of my Age of Worms game session monday night. One of the characters died and was reincarnated. The roll came up DM choice. I pick tiefling (given that they were in the Wormcrawl Fissure, it seemed to fit). No big deal there, but it did start a discussion on what a character lost and what a character kept when their race changed.
I think that rebalancing the table to LA+0 races* (and removing the kobold) would be a good start. I like the idea of kobold PCs, but their ability score modifier can nerf a character. A -4 to Strength applied to a fighter can kill a character's usefulness. Thankfully, Pathfinder does not have the XP penalty for favored classes to deal with.
I would also consider dropping the attribute adjustments. Just change the race and racial abilities.
*I would include some weak +1 races that balance well with the revised Pathfinder races (hobgoblin, aasimar, and tiefling come to mind).
At least they aren't turning into badgers ... :)You mean like that ranger badger on that Elmore cover on Dragon way back when? :)
Didn't Chris Mortika have a wizard reincarnated as a badger at one point? (verbal, somatic, and material spells a big problem, as is transporting spellbooks). And a cat burglar reincarnated as a centaur. And something else. Sucked to be them!
we used it last weekend ...human to elf and I really liked the ease of use. Thant being said I didnt run into the same issue you have. How ever every creature on thats list but the Troglodyte is LA+1. And most LA+1 are now LA+0 races really so I would just take the Troglodyte off the list and I think that would fix the issue.
we used it last weekend ...human to elf and I really liked the ease of use. Thant being said I didnt run into the same issue you have. How ever every creature on thats list but the Troglodyte is LA+1. And most LA+1 are now LA+0 races really so I would just take the Troglodyte off the list and I think that would fix the issue.
Don't forget the racial HD as well, which are essentially a LA. You'd also have to axe the bugbear, etc. And get rid of the kobold, because they're too weak. By the time we're done, you'd be limited to PC races and maybe hogoblins, which is a pretty lame list, in my opinion. I'd like to see the more exotic forms, but with some sort of well-thought-out mechanic to support them.
I never worry with race HD really If its an LA+1 races thats how I use it HD or no ...besides you dont have to use race HD if ya dont want to with this spell case in point
*bug bear
+4 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution
+3 natural armor bonus.
+4 racial bonus on Move Silently checks.
*gnoll
Strength +4, Constitution +2,
Darkvision out to 60 feet.
+1 natural armor bonus.
*Lizardfolk
+2 Strength, +2 Constitution
+5 natural armor bonus.
Natural Weapons: 2 claws (1d4) and bite (1d4).
Special Qualities (see above): Hold breath.
*Troglodyte
+4 Constitution
Darkvision out to 90 feet.
+6 natural armor bonus.
Natural Weapons: 2 claws (1d4) and bite (1d4).
Special Attacks (see above): Stench.
no HD just mods... try it like that might work well
No HD just mods... try it like that might work well
That was my plan -- to ignore the racial HD, but keep the LA for bugbears, etc. But if we're rewriting the spell description anyway, it would be good to get firm guidelines on this stuff. Do you instantly gain XP to pick up the LA? Or drop enough levels to cover it? Something else?
And while we're at it, what's the CR adjustment for an awakened animal?
Maybe we need to decide that a monster as PC race differs in its abilities from NPC monster with class levels added, on the grounds that PCs are especially exceptional members of the races. So a PC bugbear/gnoll/kobold/lizardfolk/orc has abilities X, Y, and Z, all selected to be flavorful for a bugbear/gnoll/kobold/lizardfolk/orc, but balanced as a standard +0 LA PC race.
Then you could play a bugbear from level one in a party without having to worry about LA and racial hit dice, and handle reincarnation simply by swapping the character's race for the other race.
If we were doing that, I'd tend to have character's mental attribute bonuses change along with their race in reincarnation; you have a different brain, so your interaction is mediated differently. Yes, this means reincarnation would usually de-optimize your character, but, well, it's a 4th level spell instead of a 5th like raise dead, and provides a mechanical impetus for the usual character's desire to restore his old race.
That would require Pathfinder PC-balanced +0 LA versions of the bugbear, gnoll, goblin, hobgoblin, kobold, lizardfolk, orc, and troglodyte if we just stick to SRD non-aquatic humanoids and don't include PC race subraces.
As a first stab example, the PC kobold:
Kobold characters possess the following racial traits.
* -2 Strength, +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma.
* Small size: +1 size bonus to Armor Class, +1 size bonus on attack rolls, +4 size bonus on Stealth checks.
* A kobold’s base land speed is 30 feet.
* +1 natural armor bonus.
* Darkvision out to 60 feet.
* Racial Skills: A kobold character has a +2 racial bonus on Craft (trapmaking), Profession (miner), and Search checks.
* Weapon Familiarity: Kobolds are proficient with picks (both heavy and light), and treat repeating crossbows (both heavy and light) and hand crossbows as martial weapons.
* Kobold characters begin play speaking both Common and Draconic. Kobolds with high Intelligence scores can choose any of the following: Gnome, Goblin, Infernal, Orc, and Undercommon.
* Favored Classes: Rogue, Sorcerer
So a PC bugbear/gnoll/kobold/lizardfolk/orc has abilities X, Y, and Z, all selected to be flavorful for a bugbear/gnoll/kobold/lizardfolk/orc, but balanced as a standard +0 LA PC race. As a first stab example, the PC kobold:
That's an interesting concept. It sort of takes away from the bredth of forms possible, and has the potential for some bickering (Player: "satyr should get DR 5/silver!" DM: "No way! Too good for +0 LA!"), but it sure eliminates the whole level problem very neatly. (I really like your kobold, too, BTW.)