I originally posted this in the Off-Topic area, because it affects a good deal of games, not just Pathfinder/4e/OGL, etc., but I think it might get lost in the shuffle there. Forgive me if this looks like a spam, but I think this might be a better place for this thread.
So I causally checked the news page at EN World today, and noticed the story about WOTC not having any events listed for Gen Con. I didn't think this was big deal at first, until I ready WOTC's reason for not submitting any events yet:
Q: Why are there no D&D or Wizards events on the schedule posted for Gen Con at www.gencon.com?A: Wizards had not submitted a schedule of events by the Gen Con deadline. Since we hadn't submitted our own schedule, none of our events are in the official Gen Con schedule at this time.
Q: Will Wizards attend Gen Con in 2008?
A: As you may be aware, Gen Con is currently in chapter 11 bankruptcy. Wizards' plans relative to Gen Con are dependent on the course of proceedings in US bankruptcy court. While we hope to participate in Gen Con, we must await further proceedings in the bankruptcy matter before we are able to confirm our plans.
And you can look for yourself on EN World's page:
Now, what gets me about this is, plenty of businesses recover from being in Chapter 11. Marvel comics was in Chapter 11 at one time, and look at them now (of course that took Joe Quesada selling his soul to Mephistophiles, but that's beside the point).
However, WOTC not officially supporting Gen Con could cause the event to tank. I've seen no indication what so ever that Gen Con wouldn't go off this year, so I'm really perplexed as to why WOTC would potentially create a self fulfilling prophesy by doing this.
I'm trying not to put on the tinfoil hat and say that they already assume that they are the industry, so it wouldn't hurt them if the biggest industry show of the year tanked and kept other publishers from having a venue to show their wares, but honestly, even I don't think this can be their main reasoning.
Has anyone else heard anything about this?
This is the first I am hearing of it.
But my first thought on reading your quote was "Oh, so WotC is afraid they won't get paid in full to show up at Gen Con."
I am not claiming it is an accurate thought, but it was my first thought.
Ah, come on! Let's put on the tinfoil hats:
1) WotC is demanding that 3rd party publishers still using 3.5 not be allowed to attend GenCon. It's either all 4E or WotC will not attend.
2) Just like they killed Dragon/Dungeon, WotC is going to launch their own convention. They'll tell us where and when it is but that's it. "Trust us! Our convention will be totally cool, nothing like those old lame conventions you used to attend."
3) WotC will handle their own event registration for GenCon. You'll have to be a DDI subscriber to register for an event. Event registration will occur on the Gleemax forums.
4) WotC is demanding different color pages. If you register for a 3.5 event, you get a scarlet badge. Those with scarlet pages will not be allowed to play 4E events.
Ah, come on! Let's put on the tinfoil hats:
2) Just like they killed Dragon/Dungeon, WotC is going to launch their own convention. They'll tell us where and when it is but that's it. "Trust us! Our convention will be totally cool, nothing like those old lame conventions you used to attend."
#2 chills me.
Ah, come on! Let's put on the tinfoil hats:
4) WotC is demanding different color pages. If you register for a 3.5 event, you get a scarlet badge. Those with scarlet pages will not be allowed to play 4E events.
Too funny.
Wow. Not good. If WotC had just missed the deadline, I MIGHT be able to understand, what with all the last minute rushing to get 4E done (even though you'd think that they'd want as many events as possible to help launch and move 4E forward in a big way), but their statement about GenCon's Chapter 11 situation and waiting to see how it goes is really concerning. They could certainly kill GenCon permanently by not attending. Does anyone know of they're still participating in the other game conventions like Origins?
If I was part of the tin-foil hat brigade, I would be tempted to see this as WotC's way to take GenCon back over again. Swoop in in a timely manner, save the show, and gain total control of it, garnering themselves much public praise and much needed PR...
Ah, come on! Let's put on the tinfoil hats:
1) WotC is demanding that 3rd party publishers still using 3.5 not be allowed to attend GenCon. It's either all 4E or WotC will not attend.
2) Just like they killed Dragon/Dungeon, WotC is going to launch their own convention. They'll tell us where and when it is but that's it. "Trust us! Our convention will be totally cool, nothing like those old lame conventions you used to attend."
3) WotC will handle their own event registration for GenCon. You'll have to be a DDI subscriber to register for an event. Event registration will occur on the Gleemax forums.
4) WotC is demanding different color pages. If you register for a 3.5 event, you get a scarlet badge. Those with scarlet pages will not be allowed to play 4E events.
5) WotC decide in 5-8 years time that they need a completely new convention to fix all the precieved problems with their current con. A smaller company with a loyal fanbase continues the current convention, however, with some small tweaks. Repeat process from step 1.
I like tinfoil hats!
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#2 chills me.Ah, come on! Let's put on the tinfoil hats:
2) Just like they killed Dragon/Dungeon, WotC is going to launch their own convention. They'll tell us where and when it is but that's it. "Trust us! Our convention will be totally cool, nothing like those old lame conventions you used to attend."
Didn't they already basically do this with D&DXP? Wasn't that the whole point, to replace GenCon as the core D&D-centric con?
Another tinfoil hat idea: Lucasfilm's lawsuit is the reason for GenCon's chapter 11 status. Lucasfilm owns a chunk of Hasbro, which owns WotC.
Maybe WotC wants to go to GenCon, but received a hyperspace communique from a galaxy far, far away?
Or maybe their only delegate is...
Coming soon: The Gen-clone Wars!
Another tinfoil hat idea: Lucasfilm's lawsuit is the reason for GenCon's chapter 11 status. Lucasfilm owns a chunk of Hasbro, which owns WotC.
Maybe WotC wants to go to GenCon, but received a hyperspace communique from a galaxy far, far away?
Or maybe their only delegate is...
** spoiler omitted **
Their delegate would explain a lot about how the 4E roll-out has been handled!
Didn't they already basically do this with D&DXP? Wasn't that the whole point, to replace GenCon as the core D&D-centric con?#2 chills me.Ah, come on! Let's put on the tinfoil hats:
2) Just like they killed Dragon/Dungeon, WotC is going to launch their own convention. They'll tell us where and when it is but that's it. "Trust us! Our convention will be totally cool, nothing like those old lame conventions you used to attend."
O...
M...
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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=Didn't they already basically do this with D&DXP? Wasn't that the whole point, to replace GenCon as the core D&D-centric con?
No. D&D XP was an update of Winter Fantasy, which has been around a while (not sure just how long). It has been updated to being a general D&D con instead of being focused on RPGA players, though.
The oldest Winter Fantasy I can find is 1977, no idea if that is directly connected to the modern D&D XP, or how many times it has changed focus over the years.
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I posted that to the off-topic thread, but I will also comment here:
Another tinfoil hat idea: Lucasfilm's lawsuit is the reason for GenCon's chapter 11 status. Lucasfilm owns a chunk of Hasbro, which owns WotC.
Maybe WotC wants to go to GenCon, but received a hyperspace communique from a galaxy far, far away?
Why is that a tinfoil hat idea?
Do not forget, WotC is also a Lucasfilms licensee for the Star Wars RPG. I see it being quite reasonable that Lucasfilms does not want any of their licensed material going to support a company they are suing.If I was part of the tin-foil hat brigade, I would be tempted to see this as WotC's way to take GenCon back over again. Swoop in in a timely manner, save the show, and gain total control of it, garnering themselves much public praise and much needed PR...
This is what I alluded to in the off-topic thread, except for one thing:
Right now, WotC is releasing 4E with a major shift in its focus from tabletop to online play. Hasbro is known for assimilating the competition rather that outperforming them. Instead of making a better game convention to showcase the new way to play D&D, just repurchase the best convention available and change its focus.I do not think it was planned so "perfectly" though.
I think this is just Hasbro (and Lucasfilms, and so WotC), taking advantage of a really bad move on Gen Con's part to make a move on something that can be extremely useful to them.
I would not be passing up such an opportunity.
You know, now that I think about this, I'm wondering if this isn't why they suddenly moved up World Wide D&D Day to promote 4th edition. To have another event to really push the game just in case they don't show up for Gen Con this year.
You know, now that I think about this, I'm wondering if this isn't why they suddenly moved up World Wide D&D Day to promote 4th edition. To have another event to really push the game just in case they don't show up for Gen Con this year.
Well, I wanted to show just how displeased I was they did not have ANY events for today's registration.
So I posted over on the WOTC forums about how I wanted to give 4E a chance and register for some RPGA Living Forgotten Realms events. However, there were not any available.
I also posted about being registered for all four Pathfinder Society scenarios (including a link back here).
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I don't know how people on this forum could possibly think that Hasbro might spin off a non-core business/low-margin item, only to try to re-absorb it a few years later!
I mean, it's not like they did it with magazines.
Or a campaign setting with Draconians.
Or E-tools support.
Or Open Game adventures.
I don't know how people on this forum could possibly think that Hasbro might spin off a non-core business/low-margin item, only to try to re-absorb it a few years later!
I mean, it's not like they did it with magazines.
Or a campaign setting with Draconians.
Or E-tools support.
Or Open Game adventures.
Those were licensed, GenCon has been sold lock stock and barrel.
Not that I can attend GenCon, but it really makes me wonder:
what is the reason for their reluctance... the Hasbro-Lucasfilm stuff? Considering that they announced 4e (for which I don't care) to be released at GenCon 2008... strange
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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For those interested in the non-tinfoil hat explanation, it goes like this: WotC would presumably need to pay Gen Con all sorts of fees, particularly given that they have the biggest booth/most space/etc. Gen Con is probably one of their biggest marketing expenses, and in addition to the costs they pay directly to Gen Con, they also need to transport employees from WA to IN, reserve hotels for those employees, move inventory to that area etc.
So, if Gen Con were to go under, not only would WotC be out the money they paid to Gen Con, they'd be out all that money they spent on ancillary costs.
The Lucasfilms conspiracy requires some extreme pettiness from high level actors. Lucasfilms doesn't want to destroy Gen Con for all time, they want their money. Pushing Gen Con over the edge from bankruptcy is the quickest way to guarantee they won't ever see a dime of the money owed to them. But hey, people act irrationally all the time, and if Gen Con got Lucasfilms that worked up, it's possible that spite is driving the bus. I find it unlikely, particularly given the consequences, but stranger things have happened and Lucasfilms is a bit of an empire built on one ego.
As for WotC buying Gen Con back and using this as leverage or trying to fold Gen Con by leaning on it, I'd like to say that sounds nutty, but it's possible that they have determined that they want to control the number one convention for the same reason they wanted to control Dragon/Dungeon again. Hell, maybe they just want to move it to Seattle so they don't have to pay to fly everyone there. They haven't been shy about flexing their industry mucles these days, so it's really hard to discount any ulterior motives.
But hey, I figured they'd have an incentive to allow dual edition products to ease people from 3e to 4e, so what do I know.
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2) Just like they killed Dragon/Dungeon, WotC is going to launch their own convention. They'll tell us where and when it is but that's it. "Trust us! Our convention will be totally cool, nothing like those old lame conventions you used to attend."
Sounds like WotC is going the Games Workshop route. Pretty much pulling out and having their own event day.....
For those interested in the non-tinfoil hat explanation, it goes like this: WotC would presumably need to pay Gen Con all sorts of fees, particularly given that they have the biggest booth/most space/etc. Gen Con is probably one of their biggest marketing expenses, and in addition to the costs they pay directly to Gen Con, they also need to transport employees from WA to IN, reserve hotels for those employees, move inventory to that area etc.
So, if Gen Con were to go under, not only would WotC be out the money they paid to Gen Con, they'd be out all that money they spent on ancillary costs.
The Lucasfilms conspiracy requires some extreme pettiness from high level actors. Lucasfilms doesn't want to destroy Gen Con for all time, they want their money. Pushing Gen Con over the edge from bankruptcy is the quickest way to guarantee they won't ever see a dime of the money owed to them. But hey, people act irrationally all the time, and if Gen Con got Lucasfilms that worked up, it's possible that spite is driving the bus. I find it unlikely, particularly given the consequences, but stranger things have happened and Lucasfilms is a bit of an empire built on one ego.
As for WotC buying Gen Con back and using this as leverage or trying to fold Gen Con by leaning on it, I'd like to say that sounds nutty, but it's possible that they have determined that they want to control the number one convention for the same reason they wanted to control Dragon/Dungeon again. Hell, maybe they just want to move it to Seattle so they don't have to pay to fly everyone there. They haven't been shy about flexing their industry mucles these days, so it's really hard to discount any ulterior motives.
But hey, I figured they'd have an incentive to allow dual edition products to ease people from 3e to 4e, so what do I know.
Sebastian, as usual, your logical line of thought scare me. As interesting as the Lucasfilms theory sounds, my money is on the last one. WotC buying GenCon back and attempting to reforge it makes sense, considering it's what they did with everything else.
Could be because WotC is afraid of the horde waiting to rip them apart for destroying the soul of Gygaxian D&D for their WotC D&D.
I know I would've. I originally had always wanted to go to Gen Con to hang at the WotC areas, but now with this 4th Edition bull, I would only go if I could properly prepare a 4E boycott and figure out a good anti-4E T-shirt to wear.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I know I would've. I originally had always wanted to go to Gen Con to hang at the WotC areas, but now with this 4th Edition bull, I would only go if I could properly prepare a 4E boycott and figure out a good anti-4E T-shirt to wear.
How about this one? :D
Chief Technical Officer
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I posted that to the off-topic thread, but I will also comment here:
Another tinfoil hat idea: Lucasfilm's lawsuit is the reason for GenCon's chapter 11 status. Lucasfilm owns a chunk of Hasbro, which owns WotC.
Maybe WotC wants to go to GenCon, but received a hyperspace communique from a galaxy far, far away?
Why is that a tinfoil hat idea?
Do not forget, WotC is also a Lucasfilms licensee for the Star Wars RPG. I see it being quite reasonable that Lucasfilms does not want any of their licensed material going to support a company they are suing.
WizKids is also a Lucasfilm licensee, and I believe they're going to Gen Con...
They could certainly kill GenCon permanently by not attending.
I really don't see WotC killing GenCon.. I mean.. they have many many other contributors and things that draw people in.
GenCon is busting at the seams (Indy for example) and using hotel space not simply because WotC takes up so much room.
It's growing...
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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WizKids is also a Lucasfilm licensee, and I believe they're going to Gen Con...Does Lucas own part of Topps, the company that owns WizKids?
Or rather, part of The Tornante Company and Madison Dearborn Partners, LLC that now own Topps?
What exactly does Lucasfilms get if GenCon goes under? It sure isn't their money.
Plus, Lucasfilms owns less than 5% of Hasbro's outstanding Common Stock according to Hasbro's proxy. It's a pretty tortued line of reasoning to suggest that Lucasfilms is using a less than 5% stock ownership to leverage Hasbro to stop its subsidiary from attending GenCon. What does WotC/Hasbro gain from boycotting under this scenario? What about the 95%+ shareholders who (presumably) stand to lose if Hasbro/WotC is making business decisions based on the petty vendettas of Lucasfilms executives?
It's a good story, but it's just that, a story.
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What exactly does Lucasfilms get if GenCon goes under? It sure isn't their money.
Plus, Lucasfilms owns less than 5% of Hasbro's outstanding Common Stock according to Hasbro's proxy. It's a pretty tortued line of reasoning to suggest that Lucasfilms is using a less than 5% stock ownership to leverage Hasbro to stop its subsidiary from attending GenCon. What does WotC/Hasbro gain from boycotting under this scenario? What about the 95%+ shareholders who (presumably) stand to lose if Hasbro/WotC is making business decisions based on the petty vendettas of Lucasfilms executives?
It's a good story, but it's just that, a story.
Who knows?
Maybe they do not want Gen Con to go under, just to get sold back to WotC.Perhaps Hasbro has realized just how big Gen Con Indy is as an industry show. Hasbro has always preferred to buy up competitors instead of waiting to outperform them.
So yeah, maybe it is just a story. Crazier coincidences have just been coincidences.
I thought I was just making silly connections myself until WotC announced they were not scheduled to be at Gen Con. If WotC gains nothing from Gen Con going under, why do that?
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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In any case, GenCon attracted 27,000 attendees last year according to its site.
PAX, a convention in Seattle and much closer to WotC HQ, attracted 37,000 and is just two weeks after GenCon.
No big loss to WotC if they move their marketing push to PAX (probably cheaper too)...though all those players expecting them at GenCon will surely be disappointed.
BTW, WotC isn't the only major company that is still up in the air with regards attendance at GenCon. This isn't an isolated incident.
What other major companies have not committed to attending Gen Con?
Also, while PAX is a GREAT show, it is not remotely a tabletop show. Paizo attended the first couple of years and we sold FAR more generic T-shirts and random junk from the web store than we sold D&D stuff. I'm not saying PAX isn't a good "fallback" option (especially since it is local), but the idea that the demographics of the show favor tabletop gaming is a mistake, in my opinion.
Also, the booths are hella expensive.
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You know perhaps the cost of holding a large convention like Gen Con has proven too much over the past few years. I know that Gen Con UK has skipped a year and really hasn't been the same since. Just too much is devoted to card game tournaments these days.
But perhaps wizards have considered a cost effective alternative within there current campaign, by promoting the smaller shop industry through D&D game day you keep the industry alive but with a much smaller local audience. If this is the case I'm all for it but they need to do something globally to promote it because right now the convention side of the market in the UK needs a boost. The London Dungeon was an excellent promotion but like most we heard about it too late to organise the trip to attend.
I live in Portsmouth and with the university there has always been a strong roleplaying presence here, we have had at least 3 shops specifically devoted to roleplaying over the past 15 years (two have now closed) plus a Games workshop but actual gaming clubs are almost non-existent. Only one of the shops in Portsmouth had the space to run games and that was soon overshadowed by magic and star wars card tournaments.
If Wizards can help promote and support the development of game stores in the same way games workshop has this will only be a good thing for D&D as a hobby, as long as they support all role-playing games and don't hedge out others in favor of 4e.
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I live in Portsmouth and with the university there has always been a strong roleplaying presence here...
Here's a shout out to any UK gamers, to post on this thread, so we can help people find a group.
I can't make heads or tails of this move.
This is the gaming industry's major showcase, Chapter 11 or not. No rational decision maker is going to blow it off.
WotC has been accused of showing contempt for customers. Then they started showing contempt for other publishers. Now they show contempt for the industry's premiere event.
Nice pattern.
If Wizards can help promote and support the development of game stores in the same way games workshop has this will only be a good thing for D&D as a hobby, as long as they support all role-playing games and don't hedge out others in favor of 4e.
I don't think there's any evidence that WotC is interested in supporting competitors. Quite the contrary IMO.
They used to have employees that saw the value of competition and diversity in the industry. I don't think those people work at WotC any more -- certainly the ones I was aware of are long gone.
If Wizards can help promote and support the development of game stores in the same way games workshop has this will only be a good thing for D&D as a hobby, as long as they support all role-playing games and don't hedge out others in favor of 4e.
Disclaimer: I am not trying to claim WotC is doing anything intentionally.
I don't see WotC trying to support the development of game stores. In fact, their DDI is pretty much in direct opposition of supporting game stores. You will no longer need a game store to connect you with a game. And you no longer need to run down to the game store to check out the new D&D book when you can (apparently) scour the rule database for the new material.
No, while WotC may not be deliberately trying to put game stores out of business, they certainly don't appear to care about them either.
If Wizards can help promote and support the development of game stores in the same way games workshop has this will only be a good thing for D&D as a hobby, as long as they support all role-playing games and don't hedge out others in favor of 4e.
Wizards used to have thier own line of game stores... they shut them all down several years back. The DDI doesn't look like it will help game stores at all. Somehow I don't think that wizards has any interest in game stores.
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...Why is that a tinfoil hat idea?
Do not forget, WotC is also a Lucasfilms licensee for the Star Wars RPG. I see it being quite reasonable that Lucasfilms does not want any of their licensed material going to support a company they are suing...
I agree; it would be bad form and inappropriate for them to attend if an aspect of the company is in litigation with the host.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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To tell you the truth I think the showcase position was overtaken by Origins long ago. After all the GAMA awards are there. And quite frankly I think that Gencon has been going downhill ever since it was sold off.
What's WOTC going to have to show that's new? 4th edition? by the time of GenCon the game will have been out for months and all the early adopters will have bought thier copies by then.
It's not so much that they'd have anything new to present, but they're leaving a huge vacuum in the con. Additionally, their decision to prevent 3PP from releasing anything by GenCon will make everyone planning on converting who already has booths not have anything new to contribute either. I think it's a great thing for Paizo, in that they will have something new (Beta, Second Darkness, Campaign Setting) as well as organized play. I'm sure it wasn't WotC's intention, but they've cleared the path for Paizo to sweep up this August.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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To tell you the truth I think the showcase position was overtaken by Origins long ago. After all the GAMA awards are there. And quite frankly I think that Gencon has been going downhill ever since it was sold off.
Speaking as a publisher, GAMA and Origins have a _long_ way to go before they are even close to approaching the "showcase value" of Gen Con. For starters, they need to figure out how to get about three times as many people to come to Origins. I've been attending both shows for more than a decade, and only one of them seems to get smaller every year.
And that one isn't Gen Con.
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I agree; it would be bad form and inappropriate for them to attend if an aspect of the company is in litigation with the host....Why is that a tinfoil hat idea?
Do not forget, WotC is also a Lucasfilms licensee for the Star Wars RPG. I see it being quite reasonable that Lucasfilms does not want any of their licensed material going to support a company they are suing...
Respectfully, I disagree.
The whole point of Chapter 11 bankruptcy is for a reogranization of debts and continuation of business, as opposed to a Chapter 7 liquidation and termination. What happens before and after the bankruptcy petition is filed are two separate matters only connected by the fact that post-petition earnings are supposed to be applied to pre-petition debts according to a distribution plan. It is not uncommon for companies to continue doing business with a Chap 11 debtor, admittedly on a stricter payment basis, but the relationship continues nonetheless.
I have never been to a convention before, so my knowledge of that industry is less than complete, For people who are knowledgeable in the area, I would like to ask who pays whom for attendance at conventions? If GenCon pays WoTC then it would make sense not to attend if you're worried about being paid. If its WoTC who pays GenCon, then they have no immediately obvious reason to avoid the convention as GenCon's asset (space and time at the convention) are not diminished.
As for the bad form, WoTC has demonstrated a "it's good for us and legal so we'll do it" mentality before regardless of whether actions might be perceived as bad form. Truthgully, I suspect that they are using the bankruptcy as an excuse to avoid the convention. As others have already pointed out, their big ticket item, 4th edition, will have already debuted.