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I just read the new Devil article.
I cannot help but feel that the role of Devilkind is now diminished.
In the excellent "Tyrants of the Nine Hells" we were told that in the beginning devils were celestials that used to fight demonkind. After a long time they started to fight fire with fire and use questianble methods. The gods tried to expell them but Asmodeus was too clever and used the laws of Heaven for his advantage. Expelled though they were but they got a new role. From now on they would tempt the mortals to sin. Only those who resist this temptation are worthy of Heaven (or whatever celestial afterworld this creature has).
So here the Devils have two roles to play: They fight eternally against the endless Hordes of the Abyss to resist them as long as possible and they tempt mortals.
In the 4th incarnation the Devils rebelled agains a god and got thrown out of Heaven for this. While it is more in line with the real world portrait of Devils they lost their agenda. True, they still tempt mortals, but now they do it out of spite and not for a higher purpose. And while the old Devils had an uneasy truce with other evil deities, they now appear to be servants or mercenaries for them. A role that used to be filled by the yugoloths. As there is no mention of the bloodwar, I assume that there is no bloodwar anymore.
So what purpose does Devilkind have in the new edition besides sword- and spellfodder for the PCs?
What do you think?
I just read the new Devil article.
I cannot help but feel that the role of Devilkind is now diminished.
In the excellent "Tyrants of the Nine Hells" we were told that in the beginning devils were celestials that used to fight demonkind. After a long time they started to fight fire with fire and use questianble methods. The gods tried to expell them but Asmodeus was too clever and used the laws of Heaven for his advantage. Expelled though they were but they got a new role. From now on they would tempt the mortals to sin. Only those who resist this temptation are worthy of Heaven (or whatever celestial afterworld this creature has).
So here the Devils have two roles to play: They fight eternally against the endless Hordes of the Abyss to resist them as long as possible and they tempt mortals.In the 4th incarnation the Devils rebelled agains a god and got thrown out of Heaven for this. While it is more in line with the real world portrait of Devils they lost their agenda. True, they still tempt mortals, but now they do it out of spite and not for a higher purpose. And while the old Devils had an uneasy truce with other evil deities, they now appear to be servants or mercenaries for them. A role that used to be filled by the yugoloths. As there is no mention of the bloodwar, I assume that there is no bloodwar anymore.
So what purpose does Devilkind have in the new edition besides sword- and spellfodder for the PCs?
What do you think?
I liked the take on devils provided by "Tyrants of Nine Hells". However, you are a bit unfair in comparing the description provided by a book fully dedicated to describing devils and the Nine Hells, with a Monster Manual entry. Remember that no Monster Manual from previous editions provided a meaningful description of the devils' background. In fact, I used 2nd edition 1993 Monstrous Manual for years without knowing exactly what was a baatezu (I only knew that as a demon of some kind, because a friend of mine told it).
The MM excerpt is more generic that the Asmodeus tale from Tyrants of Nine Hells, because it must be shorter. It doesn't tell who was Asmodeus' divine master and why Asmodeus betrayed him/her. It doesn't tell how Asmodeus ascended to divinity and how he gathered an an army of rebel angels. It doesn't tell who punished Asmodeus and how that was accompilshed. It tells that the common goal of devils is gathering souls for the Nine Hells, and they do it to gain status within the hierarchy, but it doesn't tell what is the real purpose of these souls (on Asmodeus perspective).
I think lots of interesting fluff can be written about all of this on upcoming books (perhaps Manual of the Planes will have something). For a Monster Manual entry, it seems fair enough. After all, we want to see other monsters, too.
I think that it appears that they're doing what they've always did in previous editions (corrupt good, steal souls, adventurer fodder, etc).
The only difference is location and no more Blood War.
This is why I love the comunity.
Getting some other opinions and seeing that I was (again) to negative.You are right, devils will probably have the same role and backstory (sans bloodwar) like in 3rd.
Lets see what they will put into the first Deon/Devil Splatbook.
I really like the backstory given here in the MM, perecisely because it is so general. I never read the Tyrants of the Nine Hells, so the backstory you described was new to me, but if you liked that story then you can go right ahead and keep using it. I might do just that in fact, because it is quite intresting and it fits nicely with the new 4E backstory.
And if you wanted too even the blood war could be brought forward into the new edition. Yes, the structured great wheel is gone, but all the individual planes remain. The various planes just exisit in a astral sea, but there is no reason that the Gray wastes couldn't still be between the Nine Hells and The Abyss, and the portals between these planes could still form a kind of highway between the two most evil planes of exisitence, running right through the Grey wastes.
Wether its a fight to gain control of the souls which appear in that bleak plane, or because of natural emnity, or because the Demons are charged with destroying the Devils, the two sides of the Blood War could continue fighting for eternity in 4E if you wanted them too.
Don't you understand?
In 4th edition THERE IS NO BLOOD WAR!
They took the entire cosmology and FLUSHED it.
I can't reconcile my 20+ year Forgotten Realms game with the crap they're doing. It's not possible. My game doesn't have a Feywild, or an Elemental Chaos.
So basically, Wizards is spitting in my face and throwing me out the door, regardless of how much money I spent on their hobby and would have continued to spend if the cosmology remained convertable.
Thanks, Hasbro!
Don't you understand?
In 4th edition THERE IS NO BLOOD WAR!
They took the entire cosmology and FLUSHED it.
I can't reconcile my 20+ year Forgotten Realms game with the crap they're doing. It's not possible. My game doesn't have a Feywild, or an Elemental Chaos.
So basically, Wizards is spitting in my face and throwing me out the door, regardless of how much money I spent on their hobby and would have continued to spend if the cosmology remained convertable.
Thanks, Hasbro!
Did 3E FR have the Blood War still? I know they changed FR's planar mechanics to something unique (a tree?) but having never really played 3E's FR I didn't have much experience except skimming over the campaign book.
Cheers! :)
Creative Director
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Did 3E FR have the Blood War still? I know they changed FR's planar mechanics to something unique (a tree?) but having never really played 3E's FR I didn't have much experience except skimming over the campaign book.
I don't know if 3E FR did or didn't officially have a Blood War off the top of my head... but 3E the game certainly did.
And as for the 4E devils... bah humbug. The succubus will always be a demon to me.
The succubus will always be a demon to me.
QFT.
"Save the succubus, save the Wheel."
I don't know if 3E FR did or didn't officially have a Blood War off the top of my head... but 3E the game certainly did.
And as for the 4E devils... bah humbug. The succubus will always be a demon to me.
Oh, I know that. I was asking because Balatabo (sorry for the name manglin ...) seemed to be upset about the cosmology changes from the viewpoint of FR. I know FR's planar setup changed in 3E, but forget whether or not the Blood War persisted (although, even in 2E, I don't really remember the Blood War having much impact out on Faerun ...)
In fact, now that I think about it, did the Blood War exist prior to Planescape (god, how I loved that setting!)? Maybe my mind is addled but I'm not sure I had ever seen a reference to it before hand ...
Cheers! :)
Don't you understand?
In 4th edition THERE IS NO BLOOD WAR!
They took the entire cosmology and FLUSHED it.
Doesn't mean they can't take parts they feel will sell well and capitalize on them.
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-Yes the Forgotten Realms had the Blood War. Hellgate Keep. The Fugue Plane. 4E TOTALLY WRECKS THE REALMS!!! The Abyss is in the Elemental Tempest now on the BOTTOM OF THE NEW COSMOLOGY. The Nine Hells are now a Domimion in the astral sea on TOP OF THE NEW COSOLOGY. While the Core World, The Feywild, And the Shadowfell are Now in the MIDDLE OF THE COSMOLOGY. The Astral Dominions are now high level dungeons, for high level adventures
18D:(
Heh. There will always be a Blood War. Long as I have the strength to roll my dice. Thank whatever diety you worship that there will be continuing support for the original fluff (and yes I know you can still use it in 4e ... I'd rather not have to rework everything and still have rules lawyers giving me grief because it's no longer 'canonical'). The Planescape books remain my prized possesions to this day. The Fiendish Codexes have an honored place right beside them.
No hate to my 4e brothers, just my 2 cents. Y'all can move forward into your brave new game sans old monkey grognard.
Long live Pathfinder!
Don't you understand?
In 4th edition THERE IS NO BLOOD WAR!
They took the entire cosmology and FLUSHED it.
I can't reconcile my 20+ year Forgotten Realms game with the crap they're doing. It's not possible. My game doesn't have a Feywild, or an Elemental Chaos.
So basically, Wizards is spitting in my face and throwing me out the door, regardless of how much money I spent on their hobby and would have continued to spend if the cosmology remained convertable.
Thanks, Hasbro!
Um, correct me if I'm wrong, but there wasn't much on the Blood War, if any, in the 3.5 MM, right? Wasn't it described more in things like Manual of the Planes, Fiend Folio, etc.? Besides, can't you just re-inject the Great Wheel back in? Or, barring that, re-institute the Blood War? I mean, really. Please calm down. After all, doesn't every homebrew campaign tweak the cosmology anyways? *Shrugs*
Don't you understand?
In 4th edition THERE IS NO BLOOD WAR!
They took the entire cosmology and FLUSHED it.
I can't reconcile my 20+ year Forgotten Realms game with the crap they're doing. It's not possible. My game doesn't have a Feywild, or an Elemental Chaos.
I understand your feelings and I can't blame you for feeling upset.
However, while compatibility is certainly a good thing, you should understand compatibility is not EVERYTHING. Sometimes, from a publisher's perspective, it may be worth to sacrifice compatibility in order to appeal to a broader public, or simply to attend general demands from customers.
It was explictly mentioned that it wouldn't be possible to convert existing campaigns to 4th edition, or at least, that the conversion won't be trivial. Because of this, 4th edition is, for sure, a different step than 3th edition was.
So... is maintaining the Great Wheel necessary to ensure compatibility? Certainly, yes. But note that many groups (including mine) always ignored the Great Wheel, even it being the "official" cosmology, and never needed official support to do that.
Now... is the Great Wheel the best cosmology that will ever be published?
Depends on the taste. On my taste, certainly it's not. The question is how many people think that and how many don't think so.
So basically, Wizards is spitting in my face and throwing me out the door, regardless of how much money I spent on their hobby and would have continued to spend if the cosmology remained convertable.
Thanks, Hasbro!
Not exactly. I understand that you feel bad. I imagin you feel like Wizards is saying:
"Hey, sorry, but we don't need you anymore. Thanks for all your money spent on the game, but now we're going to make lots of profit with the teenager/MMO/anime/videogame public and we don't care if you continue playing or not. I hope playing D&D was nice for you! Bwa hah ha ha!"
When actually, I think it's more like this:
"You probably won't be able to easily convert your campaign to 4th edition. However, give a close look at the new fluff and if you like, you may wish to start a fresh new campaign in 4th edition. If you don't like, you may use your own fluff with 4e mechanics, just like many groups use 3.5 rules with their own homebrew worlds, Eberron, or 3rd party scenarios. If you really want to stay in the old scenario, and you really need official support for it, then we're sorry, but as a company, we invest on what is profitable."
Don't you understand?
In 4th edition THERE IS NO BLOOD WAR!
They took the entire cosmology and FLUSHED it.
I can't reconcile my 20+ year Forgotten Realms game with the crap they're doing. It's not possible. My game doesn't have a Feywild, or an Elemental Chaos.
So basically, Wizards is spitting in my face and throwing me out the door, regardless of how much money I spent on their hobby and would have continued to spend if the cosmology remained convertable.
Thanks, Hasbro!
So here's the thing. The current cosmology features this:
In the times before the world was made, there were two things. The elemental chaos, which churned and spat out new life only to consume it again and the astral sea, in which the Gods resided. The elemental chaos spat out the Titans, powerful beings who rivaled the Gods in power, and so were able to craft the World. They then decided to tear it apart, having grown bored. The Gods fought to prevent it and eventually sealed up the Titans.
The abyss formed at the very heart of the Elemental Chaos through the machinations of some unknown God, possibly Tharizdun. It then began to bleed out Demons like a sick wound pours out pus. Demons are interested in carnage, destruction and devastation. Vis-a-vie, the Demons are interested in, at least to some extent, destroying the World.
Asmodeus, the Lord of all Devils, chose to rebel against his divine master. The interesting question to ask here is - why? Hunger for power? Unlikely. After all, when do angelic beings hunger for power? Angels, by and large, are creatures of duty. So what could cause an angel to shirk its duty? Perhaps the fact it realized its duty was something greater and beyond what was currently being performed - a duty to the Cosmos as a whole as opposed to one doddering God or something. Perhaps even to a God of prophecy, who commanded the act of betrayal be done.
If we (and by that I mean you) were to accept that logic for your campaign, then suddenly you've got the very heart of the Blood War put into place. The Demons stand posed to destroy all of creation, something the lawful (while still evil) Devils oppose. And so the Devils harvest evil souls, gather power, breed and multiply in their dark pits awaiting the hour when the Demons pour over the World and are met kind for kind, atrocity for atrocity by Devilish arms and forces. The Blood War no longer needs to be something happening in th Grey Wastes or the crashing cubes of Acheron - the Blood War could be happening on your very doorstep or in another country or on another continent, roiling and drawing ever nearer to you.
So is the Blood War gone from D&D? Well, that depends on you.
I just read the new Devil article.
I cannot help but feel that the role of Devilkind is now diminished.
In the excellent "Tyrants of the Nine Hells" we were told that in the beginning devils were celestials that used to fight demonkind. After a long time they started to fight fire with fire and use questianble methods. The gods tried to expell them but Asmodeus was too clever and used the laws of Heaven for his advantage. Expelled though they were but they got a new role. From now on they would tempt the mortals to sin. Only those who resist this temptation are worthy of Heaven (or whatever celestial afterworld this creature has).
So here the Devils have two roles to play: They fight eternally against the endless Hordes of the Abyss to resist them as long as possible and they tempt mortals.In the 4th incarnation the Devils rebelled agains a god and got thrown out of Heaven for this. While it is more in line with the real world portrait of Devils they lost their agenda. True, they still tempt mortals, but now they do it out of spite and not for a higher purpose. And while the old Devils had an uneasy truce with other evil deities, they now appear to be servants or mercenaries for them. A role that used to be filled by the yugoloths. As there is no mention of the bloodwar, I assume that there is no bloodwar anymore.
So what purpose does Devilkind have in the new edition besides sword- and spellfodder for the PCs?
What do you think?
Dude, ALL D&D fluff went to Hell. It all sucks and it's all stupid. WotC had no right to change it all. They could've kept it the same and changed the rule mechanics, that's what a new edition is about. Not changing 30+ years of lore.
WotC can rot where Asmodeus lives for all I care.
Yes the Blood War most certainly exists in 3rd Edition Forgotten Realms. The cosmology is different from the Great Wheel but there is still a Blood War.
As for 4th edition. Alignment is now Good, Unaligned and Evil.
There is no Lawful or Chaotic anymore.
Since there is no Lawful and Chaotic alignments anymore that destroys the entire purpose of the blood War..Hence it doesnt exist.
Yeah...Im not so happy with 4th edition fulff either.
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Director of Brand Strategy
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I think many of the changes come as a result of their alteration of alignment structure within the game. Since there's no more LE, just E and CE, the distinction between demons and devils was much more abstract and less tied to game mechanics. That and since they were ripping everything else from its roots, why stop with the fiends?
Dude, ALL D&D fluff went to Hell. It all sucks and it's all stupid. WotC had no right to change it all. They could've kept it the same and changed the rule mechanics, that's what a new edition is about. Not changing 30+ years of lore.WotC can rot where Asmodeus lives for all I care.
Is the fluff is more important than the rules themselves? After all, the fluff was always optional. Forgotten Realms used the 3E fluff with modifications, and Eberron ignored it completely. Even if the Great Wheel technically existed on 2E scenarios such as Dark Sun, Ravenloft or Spelljammer, it's hard to imagin someone making a campaign for these scenarios focused on Planar Travel/Blood War rather them on the scenarios themselves.
Certainly you can find dozens of groups which never used the Great Wheel, or where the Great Wheel could be exchanged with anything else with no serious impact on their campaigns.
As someone who plays D&D for 15 years and never cared at all about the Great Wheel or the Blood War, it's hard to see how 4th edition is "destroying" D&D.
Now, I imagin that you used the Great Wheel/Blood War a lot in your games, and I completely understand that you are upset. But from a commercial viewpoint, if Wotc thinks the completely redone cosmology will sell better (because it can appeal to new players, rather than only satisfying the conservadorism of older players), why are they being "stupid"?
Does the new cosmology sucks so much? Or you don't like it just because it's... different? I understand that change for change's sake is not good. But is compatibility the only thing that matters?
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Director of Brand Strategy
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Is the fluff is more important than the rules themselves? After all, the fluff was always optional.
I think one needs a good balance, and I'm with JJ here. You can have fun playing a poorly designed game in an interesting and engaging setting. It is much less fun to play a mechanically perfect game in a creative vacuum. Even if someone doesn't care about fluff, they won't be converted by the 4e rules alone, that's for sure.
Is the fluff is more important than the rules themselves? After all, the fluff was always optional.I think one needs a good balance, and I'm with JJ here. You can have fun playing a poorly designed game in an interesting and engaging setting. It is much less fun to play a mechanically perfect game in a creative vacuum. Even if someone doesn't care about fluff, they won't be converted by the 4e rules alone, that's for sure.
I completely agree. However, mechanics depends 100% (or at least, 90%, house rules exist, after all) on the game. Creativity relies on the DM first and the game second. Even off-the-shelf adventures have a completely different feel depending on who is DMing them.
I fail to see how is impossible to play 3E fluff on 4th edition. How is possible that many groups still play unsupported scenarios on 3th edition? Doing conversion of some specific crunch requires some work, but I can't see how is inviable. We already do a lot of conversion, sometimes even without noticing. For instance, I use Eberron as my campaign scenario, but I never used a single official statblock, simply because they are made using solely the core rules and I need to use crunch from supplements to properly challenge my PCs (who also use crunch from supllements).
I will promptly convert my Eberron campagin to 4th edition on june, even through Eberron will only be officialy converted on 2009. I certainly won't feel the most sacrificed person in the world because I'm going to have to perform some manual conversions.
Is the fluff is more important than the rules themselves?Some of it is to some folk. It is to me, for example.
Yeah me to.
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Is the fluff is more important than the rules themselves?Some of it is to some folk. It is to me, for example.
The fluff is what inspires me to play D&D, as opposed to some other RPG. It motivates me as a DM. If all you care about are the mechanics, there are plenty of other games with better rulesets.
I just read the new Devil article.
I cannot help but feel that the role of Devilkind is now diminished.
In the excellent "Tyrants of the Nine Hells" we were told that in the beginning devils were celestials that used to fight demonkind. After a long time they started to fight fire with fire and use questianble methods. The gods tried to expell them but Asmodeus was too clever and used the laws of Heaven for his advantage. Expelled though they were but they got a new role. From now on they would tempt the mortals to sin. Only those who resist this temptation are worthy of Heaven (or whatever celestial afterworld this creature has).
So here the Devils have two roles to play: They fight eternally against the endless Hordes of the Abyss to resist them as long as possible and they tempt mortals.In the 4th incarnation the Devils rebelled agains a god and got thrown out of Heaven for this. While it is more in line with the real world portrait of Devils they lost their agenda. True, they still tempt mortals, but now they do it out of spite and not for a higher purpose. And while the old Devils had an uneasy truce with other evil deities, they now appear to be servants or mercenaries for them. A role that used to be filled by the yugoloths. As there is no mention of the bloodwar, I assume that there is no bloodwar anymore.
So what purpose does Devilkind have in the new edition besides sword- and spellfodder for the PCs?
What do you think?
Dude, ALL D&D fluff went to Hell. It all sucks and it's all stupid. WotC had no right to change it all. They could've kept it the same and changed the rule mechanics, that's what a new edition is about. Not changing 30+ years of lore.
WotC can rot where Asmodeus lives for all I care.
Are you kidding me? Are you f!~!ing kidding me? WoTC can't change their own damn game?
The fluff is what inspires me to play D&D, as opposed to some other RPG. It motivates me as a DM. If all you care about are the mechanics, there are plenty of other games with better rulesets.Is the fluff is more important than the rules themselves?Some of it is to some folk. It is to me, for example.
So, do you mean, everyone who use their own homebrew scenarios with D&D are using the wrong system?
I take it it happens alot on here (Just found the 4E forum today).
Looks like you'll fit right in...
Looks like you'll fit right in...
Should I be worried about that?
Looks like you'll fit right in...Should I be worried about that?
Not if you dig that kinda thing.
Not if you dig that kinda thing.Looks like you'll fit right in...Should I be worried about that?
Sounds dangerous.
Sounds dangerous.Not if you dig that kinda thing.Looks like you'll fit right in...Should I be worried about that?
Only for your blood pressure.
Only for your blood pressure.Sounds dangerous.Not if you dig that kinda thing.Looks like you'll fit right in...Should I be worried about that?
Thankfully I don't pump blood.
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There are a few characters, on both sides, who cannot post about 4e without getting extremely riled up. Most people avoid these threads (I normally do, not sure why I am here right now) and by the time you get to the end of page 1 of the thread there are often insults flying round. Hence, if you look on the tag-line for the whole 4e Discussion board, you see the exhortation to avoid nastiness.
Sounds dangerous.Not if you dig that kinda thing.Looks like you'll fit right in...Should I be worried about that?
Might want to take a quick look at Lisa's post at the top of the 4E boards, if you haven't already. Not everybody takes it to heart, but it's always nice when people do.
Might want to take a quick look at Lisa's post at the top of the 4E boards, if you haven't already. Not everybody takes it to heart, but it's always nice when people do.Sounds dangerous.Not if you dig that kinda thing.Looks like you'll fit right in...Should I be worried about that?
Take it it got really bad here?
Take it it got really bad here?
I might not be the best person to answer, since I am only a few months old on this board, but I think a lot of people here bring the level of discourse pretty high, historically. So seeing that degrade was not fun for them.
Compared to other boards/blogs, I think Paizo's still held up pretty well, even amidst the tumult. But since the company and a lot of people don't want to sink down to the muck, there was an effort to try to tone things down.
Again, I'm a noob. Someone else could probably explain it better.
Take it it got really bad here?I might not be the best person to answer, since I am only a few months old on this board, but I think a lot of people here bring the level of discourse pretty high, historically. So seeing that degrade was not fun for them.
Compared to other boards/blogs, I think Paizo's still held up pretty well, even amidst the tumult. But since the company and a lot of people don't want to sink down to the muck, there was an effort to try to tone things down.
Again, I'm a noob. Someone else could probably explain it better.
It kinda reminded me of the Blood War ...
Guess which side I'm on! :)
The good thing is that if you dont like the story material presented in the implied setting, you can easily change it, even back to how it is in 3rd Edition.
However, I dont think that simple fact is going to satisfy people who hate 4th Edition anyway.
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The real issue was that many people originally came to the boards because they liked Dragon and Dungeon magazines, which were published by Paizo under licence from WotC. WotC then didn't renew the licence when it came to an end, and replaced it with the (totally inferior) online version on their website. Many, many people were very upset by this - me included - and while things have possibly turned out better (Pathfinder and all) at the time some pretty pro-WotC people (myself included) were left infuriated, and not everyone was as pro-WotC as me (since I was happy for them to profit-maximise, and understood all of that stuff when others thought they were a charity).
Then (as it later turns out, connected to the death of the print magazines) when they announced 4e, after months of swearing nothing of the sort was on the cards for "years", an already hostile crowd were riled up even further, not just by the announcement itself but the utterly cack-handed marketing which seemed to be alienating a lot of the people who had stuck by D&D and been part of the 3e renaissance. So an already angry crowd were infuriated further. The fluff changes, which upset many people's idea of what D&D was about, didn't help, and (what many interpret as) the killing of the OGL is also a major bone of contention. Blowing up Faerun was also, shall we say, controversial.
The 4e Discussion boards were set up in good faith by the guys here, but given all the emotion swirling about some of the discussions got very hostile, with some people feeling utterly betrayed by WotC and others sticking to their guns and saying they welcomed a new edition, and were not bothered by the fluff changes. The invective got so bad, and infected every thread on the subject, that in the end the Paizo management stepped in and called order (normally, these boards are totally unmoderated, and normally everyone is pretty nice and civil to each other) because it was putting people off Paizo as a company, and was in any case very unseemly. A lot of it was personal, and escalated accordingly, and some of it in extremely poor taste. Some people still can't stay out of it, as some of the posts above will give a hint.
There are still a few diehards who exchange blows here, but the key thing is that (while there is more information than there was initially) no one knows that much about the new edition, and the bits we do know about are taken out of context most of the time, so it is like the blind guys with the elephant getting worked up. I personally think that WotC hasn't covered itself in glory, and is being somewhat cynical in the way it is behaving, but I'll buy 4e and then decide if I like it - I can't really comment in detail otherwise.
Boy, talk about making a guy feel the grognard. We never even bothered with the Blood War. We stuck with Ed Greenwood's classic Hells article series from Dragon ?? (someone with a better memory or index can fill the issues in). Now that was classic Hells, with Asmodeus overthrowing Lucifer and all kinds of great background fluff/flavor (the "fluff" word doesn't sit right with me either, but that's another thread...) ;)
After all my time on here and the Gleemax forums I still have no idea what a Grognard really is.
After all my time on here and the Gleemax forums I still have no idea what a Grognard really is.
Well, hunker on down here on the porch with me, young feller, and I'll tell you about the good'ol days, when a wizard was a magic-user, a rogue was a thief, and a bard was... well a bit of everything. :)
Seriously, it was originally a snide term for oldtimers who complained about any change in the system (basic to advanced, 1e to 2e, etc.) But most have adopted it as a badge of honor indicating that they've been around long enough to see most things come and go, and somehow manage to keep playing and having fun.
After all my time on here and the Gleemax forums I still have no idea what a Grognard really is.Well, hunker on down here on the porch with me, young feller, and I'll tell you about the good'ol days, when a wizard was a magic-user, a rogue was a thief, and a bard was... well a bit of everything. :)
Seriously, it was originally a snide term for oldtimers who complained about any change in the system (basic to advanced, 1e to 2e, etc.) But most have adopted it as a badge of honor indicating that they've been around long enough to see most things come and go, and somehow manage to keep playing and having fun.
And complaining! :P
Just teasing! :)
After all my time on here and the Gleemax forums I still have no idea what a Grognard really is.Well, hunker on down here on the porch with me, young feller, and I'll tell you about the good'ol days, when a wizard was a magic-user, a rogue was a thief, and a bard was... well a bit of everything. :)
Seriously, it was originally a snide term for oldtimers who complained about any change in the system (basic to advanced, 1e to 2e, etc.) But most have adopted it as a badge of honor indicating that they've been around long enough to see most things come and go, and somehow manage to keep playing and having fun.
And now I know.........