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OK all you "other" gamers out there, I have been a faithful D&D player for going on 30 years, but as the 4e apocalypse approaches, I am looking at doing something differently. My concern is that the 3.5 market will dry up and no 3.75 will arise to replace it. I still have some 3.5 adventure paths to run, but I am now looking for a new rule set that better meets my needs. Specifically, I am looking for:
- Medium fantasy (think Grayhawk not FR)
- Gritty combat that supports tactical choices (my players enjoy tactical battles and use minis all the time)
- Controlled magic (no magic marts/reliance on magic items as 3.5 requires) where players can find and use magic and perhaps even barter for it, but it does not permeate the air.
- A supported setting would be nice with lots of fluff and some crunch. I am a very busy person and want at least some of the work done for me if possible. If not I can homebrew but I am very busy atm.
- A strong character creation system (I know it will be classed based if it is d20 but classless is fine too) that allows for a variety of tropes and archtypes as well as plenty of customization.
- Settings-appropriate challenges (monsters, environmental whatever)
- Published adventures (would be a real help but I can homebrew if needed)
- The system must scale well; I have 7 players (sometimes 8) at my weekly games and we enjoy all levels of play.
- Straightforward conversion from 3.5 source material to the new system would be a plus since I could move the game from 3.5 sooner.
- A good to strong resolution system for crafting, social skills, and other roleplaying support mechanics.
- If going to a generic system (eg Fudge or Tristat), I would like to rely upon work already available rather than building my system from scratch.
- I am hesitant about GURPS, it seems a bit cumbersome to me though I have admittedly not played it. I was hoping for something less convoluted, no more complex than 3.5 with a few splatbooks added in.
My problems with 3.5 include the magic items/wealth by level system vs monster CR and the endless supply of splatbooks (most of which I do not allow at my table except on a case by case basis). My goal is to get away from this rut and move on to something else or at the very least have an alternate system ready if 3.5 support falters in the marketplace. However, systems that move toward what 4e is doing are not interesting at all to me.
Thus far I have considered Castles and Crusades, Fudge, and Iron Heroes. By considered, I mean I have heard a bit about them and think they may qualify. What I really would like though is to have people playing these or other systems make some recommendations or suggest game systems they like. I like D&D, Shadowrun and Tri-Stat dX and have played many other systems, so I am pretty open minded.
What are your suggestions?
Edit: My many typos *sigh*
It sounds like Mongoose's Runequest fits the bill. Mind you, I don't know much about it, but what I do know makes it sound like you might want to check it out.
Conan d20 is pretty good. After reading this thread and asking some questions of BPorter, I bought the 2nd edition rulebook which came out this past year and perused it. It looks like a pretty fun game worth trying out. There's some published adventures for the setting and some fan created adventures (and conversions) you can find if you look around the Mongoose forums. Also, BPorter gives some advice in that thread on converting 3.5 material if you're interested in doing that.
You could also check out True20 if you want something that will be supported but is d20-like.
You can find it at this site
I also did an interview with Steve Kenson (Green Ronin) who created it here:
The Tome's Interview With Steve Kenson
He had some interesting things to say about the system.
Have you considered True20 or Grim Tales?
I have experience with Iron Heroes. It's essentially a "high action" system calibrated to give players all the same hitting ability of a D&D character of equivalent level, without the magic items. It has a very robust skill system and feat system that I like a lot. The only casters are the arcanist (not well designed) and the spiritualist (well designed and in a supplement). Sometimes the tokens don't work so well, take too long to gather or are superfluous to abilities. Other times they work brilliantly to give players abilities that vary and keep combat fresh and exciting. Zones, stunts and skill challenges round it out nicely and give a lot of the gritty, tactical feel that you mention. The DM's portion also features villain classes, which are easy to create, on-the-fly opponents. Personally I like it a lot. It is sometimes too "low-magic" for my tastes.
I have not played Castles & Crusades. The one constant comment I have heard about that system is that many DMs add back in feats and more skills. Players love feats.
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There's a game I have called DeathStalkers, and it's pretty interesting. It's a far cry from D&D, but everything's there. The thing that interested me the most was the combat system, which is based more on tactics than running up to a monster and attacking it. There's still initiative, but you have these things called "actions per round", or APRs. The more actions you have, the more things you can do. Armor provides damage reduction rather than making you harder to hit. Whenever someone attacks you, they attack at an AC 6. If they roll a 6 or higher with all bonuses, they hit. You can then choose to use one of your APR to parry or dodge the attack, in which case you make an opposed roll with whatever bonuses you have, or they could choose to take the hit and save their actions for attacking. It's a little more complicated than that, but that's the jist of it.
The skill system is a bit wonky, as it's dealt with by d%, but it's not that bad.
Magic is a kinda rare, as in the world of deathstalkers most common people fear it. It's still there though, but spellcasters level up differently from everyone else. They use their exp to buy spells, and after they have so many spells for that level, they level up.
I think there's a total of 25 classes or something around that number, and it's split into non-magick, semi-magick, and magick classes.
There's tons of races to choose from, and none of them are really overpowered. Cooler, yes, but not overpowered. Centaurs, demons, half-dead, fairies, and many more, including all of our favorite originals.
It's a fantasy-horror game, and has a world already completely built, along with a history section for most of the areas.
It's probably not a "must have", but it's definitely worth checking out. I picked my copy up in a used book store, but there's a newer version that you can order online.
As a side note, it has a runic alphabet and it lists the "power words" for every spell. If you have a player that likes to be dramatic, he could actually say the words to the spell, rather than "I cast fireball at the group of monsters", he could say, "I raise my hand out towards them and say, '[insert magic words here]!', launching a giant ball of flame towards the cretins!"
It is often overlooked, but the most coherent, balanced and fun fantasy game I have played.
Earthdawn on Wikipedia. .
Earthdawn. .
Troll Lord Games' Castles & Crusades might be up your alley. There is a setting and published adventures for it (a few from Goodman Games, as well).
Warhammer Fantasy RPG 2E as a lot to offer you then:
- Medium fantasy (but a lot darker than Greyhawk)
- Gritty combat that supports tactical choices (you can't get more gritty than the critical effects table result)
- Controlled magic (no magic marts/reliance on magic items)... You will be very lucky to find one minor magical object per adventure... Spellcasting have other side effect too (from minor annoyance up to opening a gate to the Chaos plane)
- A supported setting would be nice with lots of fluff (Most WFRP sourcebook containt 90% fluf and 10% rules).
- A strong character creation system (WFRP offer more than sixty basic careers and 50 advances Careers) that allows for a variety of tropes and archtypes as well as plenty of customization.
- Settings-appropriate challenges (monsters, environmental whatever). Creating appropriate challenge is more art than science in WFRP.
- Published adventures (A lot.. and if you care to convert from previous edition, The Ennemy Within Campain is one of the best RPG series of adventures ever produce)
-The system must scale well; It's pretty easy to advance you character to the appropriate exeprience level you wish and the game don't bug down at higher level of experience like DnD...
- Straightforward conversion from 3.5 source material - Not possible but a lot of conversion is possible without to much work... It as more to do with the tone of the adventures than the rules... WFRP focus on grim and gritty, demon, chaos, cultist and corruption. The first 3 modules of Pathfinder fit this description pretty well...
- A good to strong resolution system for crafting, social skills, and other roleplaying support mechanics. Since all character creation are base on career (some mundane)rather than class, most character have plenty of social and fluff skills or talents...
And there is a lot of fiction that you could buy to immerse yourself in this universe (I recommand beginning with TrollSlayer by William King - It's a collection of short novels relating the adventure of the 2 most famous adventurers of the Old Wolrd)...
You should take a look at the official site: Black Industry.
Don't forget to take a look at the free scenarios too...
You might want to try Savage Worlds. Be sure to download the free Test Drive.
I recently delved into the rules and will most likely be using them for my Pathfinder games from now on. Converting is rather simple, albeit with a little "fudging" here and there.
Check them out. I don't think you'll be disappointed.
If you're willing to use to an even more flexible system than GURPS, HERO is worth a look. It's classless, so converting existing 3.x material can be a bit difficult at first, but it's not too bad once you get a hang of it. The biggest change is with magic (and the resulting de-emphasis of magic items). You only need two or three rulebooks and can convert just about any setting yourself.
Despite your hesitation, I would actually recommend G.U.R.P.S. over Hero for you. I can not speak for 4th edition, but I played many a Fantasy game with 3rd edition and it has everything you want. A lot of the added weight you are concerned about can probably be ignored without the game collapsing.
My second recommendation would be Hero. Check out Killer Shrike’s site for all your conversion needs. 2e, 3e (including Ptolus and Pathfinder) and Warhammer. I should also warn you that Hero will be releasing 6th edition in 2009.
Finally, I would also recommend True 20 and even Mutants & Masterminds. There is a conversion for M&M called Monsters & Mayhem. Although I am not sure these two would meet the level of tactical combat you are looking for.
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Oh, and DeathStalkers II is one big book (roughly 700 pages) that has everything you need, and it's about $50 to order it from the cuttersguild site. And you need PayPal to order it. You can download a PDF sample of the book here, it has a few excerpts from the book.
Having run or played nearly every game system mentioned, I want to make a few comments.
Earthdawn is a good game with a LOT of fluff to support the crunch, espically if you can get a hold of the older FASA stuff (I am not sure if it has all been reprinted). The game system is a little strange if you are use to d20 and may take a while to fully pick up. Earthdawn is not a "gritty" system, but it handles heroic character and situations very well.
The new warhammer RPG is fun and can easily be run without figures, though there are rules to support them. This system can be very deadly with its critical injury and insanity rules.
The Hero system can be defined in a wide number of ways. It is a good game, but if you will need to set some specifics if you are GMing.
I cannot speak for GURPS 4th. I have played a number of fantasy games under the 3rd edition rules. Characters are defined by their skills and combat can be deadly. I had a character that was impaled by a pick wielded by an ogre.
One system that is coming out that I am interested in seeing is Goodman Games Eldritch Role Playing system. So far it sounds like it will have a less rules intensive (though still unified) system that will allow for a lot of possibilities in game play.
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You might want to try Savage Worlds. Be sure to download the free Test Drive.
I recently delved into the rules and will most likely be using them for my Pathfinder games from now on. Converting is rather simple, albeit with a little "fudging" here and there.
Check them out. I don't think you'll be disappointed.
I'm gonna second this recommendation. Also, the book is only 9.99$.
While it does not fit your list lich-loved, I will mention that White Wolf is doing an Exalted 2E give away right now. They're calling it a "graduation" from D&D. I've played Exalted for 4 years. Its an excellent game. Using your list as a base, I'd describe it as follows: