Not Enough CHA to Cast ...


3.5/d20/OGL


Can a spellcaster memorize their spell slots for levels higher then they can cast?
Like,
...if I was a sorceror with 15CHA and my XP level gave me a slot in the 6level spell. Could I then fill that slot and use ,say ,Eagle's Splendor later on down the line and cast my sixth level spell (since the CHA would be over 16 then)?
...a Druid with 15WIS taking a 6level slot and planning on using Owl's Wisdom (basically same question, but I'm wondering for Divine casters as well)?


I would say no.

The Exchange

I think the rules say you can use a slot granted at a higher lever for a spell of a level lower than the slot. So I would say yes.


The organization and language of the PHB would seem to imply that sorcerers must cast spells from the appropriate spell level's spells per day allocations, while wizards can use higher-level spell slots. By the RAW, of course.

The answer to your question, then, would be "Maybe." Let's set aside the case of a sorcerer, because that's really too ambiguous to call. Instead, let's use the same example, but with a wizard.

In a scenario of "not enough int to cast", I think the answer is "Probably". The real question here is if ability to cast spells is actually a requirement to access the spell preparation slots associated with those spells.

I suggest a different question. If you don't have the minimum casting stat to cast spells of a level you would otherwise have access too, can you use those spell slots for spells affected by metamagic feats that raise the spell's preparation slot requirement to that level? The question is slightly different, but if you can find an answer to one I think you'll have answered both.

The Exchange

The answer to Burrito's question is, as far as I know, no. A Quickened Magic Missile is a 4th level spell (or maybe 5th - memory fails) (albeit that it is 1st level for SR purposes). I think it says that too in the rules.

I'm not aware that the PHB says that a sorcerer says, or even implies, that a sorcerer must cast a 6th level spell with a 6th level slot. I think any slot can be used to cast a spell of that level or lower, assuming you have the requisite stat to learn the highest level spell in the first place. By implication, you can probably use a granted slot to cast spells of the levels you can cast, even if you cannot learn spells to fully utilise them.

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CharlieRock wrote:

Can a spellcaster memorize their spell slots for levels higher then they can cast?

Like,
...if I was a sorceror with 15CHA and my XP level gave me a slot in the 6level spell. Could I then fill that slot and use ,say ,Eagle's Splendor later on down the line and cast my sixth level spell (since the CHA would be over 16 then)?
...a Druid with 15WIS taking a 6level slot and planning on using Owl's Wisdom (basically same question, but I'm wondering for Divine casters as well)?

Well, sorcerers don't prepare spells, but yes, you can cast a lower level spell from a higher level slot, whether you prepare or not.

The relevant text is in the Magic Overvie chapter, under Arcane Spells:

Quote:
A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level.

There is similar text for divine casters.

In terms of using metamagic, at least one WotC product has done so, and I'm inclined to think that yes, you can cast a quickened magic missile even if your Int isn't 15.


I seem to remember reading somewhere that if you had an item (like, an Ioun stone) that raised a mental stat high enough you could cast spells (and prepare them) at that stats raised potential. Ioun stone boosts Cha to 16, can cast sixth level spells.
I was wondering if that applied to more temporary (er, less permanent?) boosts like ES or OW. And if it did then should a spontaneous caster be allowed to fill slots higher then they can cast, and not cast them until they are buffed (or find an ioun stone that does the same thing).
I can't even find where I read the part about the magic item benefits and spell slots now. (or, maybe it applied to feats ??)


CharlieRock wrote:

I seem to remember reading somewhere that if you had an item (like, an Ioun stone) that raised a mental stat high enough you could cast spells (and prepare them) at that stats raised potential. Ioun stone boosts Cha to 16, can cast sixth level spells.

I was wondering if that applied to more temporary (er, less permanent?) boosts like ES or OW. And if it did then should a spontaneous caster be allowed to fill slots higher then they can cast, and not cast them until they are buffed (or find an ioun stone that does the same thing).
I can't even find where I read the part about the magic item benefits and spell slots now. (or, maybe it applied to feats ??)

A temporary enhancement from ES or OW shouldn't give you extra spell slots or higher level spells. I suppose if the enhancement was active at the time the caster was preparing their spells, and remained in effect continuously till the time those spells were cast, it might be slightly more plausible - that is the justification for permanent items allowing more and higher level spells. In 3.5 the durations of the stat enhancing spells were greatly reduced from the 3.0 versions, so that's only really practical with the metamagic feat Persistent Spell. A temporary enhancement will increase things such as Save DCs.

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Bluenose wrote:
CharlieRock wrote:

I seem to remember reading somewhere that if you had an item (like, an Ioun stone) that raised a mental stat high enough you could cast spells (and prepare them) at that stats raised potential. Ioun stone boosts Cha to 16, can cast sixth level spells.

I was wondering if that applied to more temporary (er, less permanent?) boosts like ES or OW. And if it did then should a spontaneous caster be allowed to fill slots higher then they can cast, and not cast them until they are buffed (or find an ioun stone that does the same thing).
I can't even find where I read the part about the magic item benefits and spell slots now. (or, maybe it applied to feats ??)
A temporary enhancement from ES or OW shouldn't give you extra spell slots or higher level spells. I suppose if the enhancement was active at the time the caster was preparing their spells, and remained in effect continuously till the time those spells were cast, it might be slightly more plausible - that is the justification for permanent items allowing more and higher level spells. In 3.5 the durations of the stat enhancing spells were greatly reduced from the 3.0 versions, so that's only really practical with the metamagic feat Persistent Spell. A temporary enhancement will increase things such as Save DCs.

It won't open up higher level spells or extra spell slots. In my PHB, under Sorcerer it states

phb wrote:
To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level (Cha 10 for 0-level spells, Cha 11 for 1st-level spells, and so forth)
[quote-phb]Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast as a higher-level spell.

so I'd say that if a sorcerer with a cha of 12 (and a player with a wisdom of 8) has a 4th level spell slot, and the empower spell feat, empowered scortching rays are possible. But hitting him with Eagle's Grace won't suddenly make fireball available to him (though he now meets the stat minimum for a scroll of fireball).

Else, you're further penalizing the player for making a sub-optimal choice.


Since your not allowed to prepare spells that are higher level then you can cast due to low attributes normally speaking you can't pull this off. That said I think I can see a possible loop hole. Drink a potion of eagles splendor, this boosts your charisma enough to be able to prepare the spells. I'm not even sure you need to raise your attributes later after the potion wears off as I don't recall seeing anything that prohibits one from casting a spell thats 'too high a level'. The prohibition seems to be all in the preparing side - if you can raise your stats during the 15 minute period when you prepare spells I think you can then cast them later no matter what your spell casting attribute is.

Not that I'd expect this to come up often. If you normally can't even prepare spell X your sure going to have crappy DCs with your spells - most of the time I'd think its a pretty lame build.

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