One of my players - a 14yo who knows everything - had played a few rounds of "monster mash" with his little sister to try out a character concept. He was overheard to say, "Kobolds aren't much of a challenge."
Oops.
When the DM gives a standard Kobold (CR 1/4) breastplate (raising AC by3) and a heavy steel shield (another +2) and THEN gives the lot of them Phalanx Fighting (another +1 or +3 to AC, as circumstances dictate), rendering them out at a final AC23 and then subjects 4x 2nd-lvl characters to a 6-kobold phalanx (2 ranks of 3 - front row, shields and short swords and second row, longspears for reach) backed up by 4x archers w/ shortbows ... two questions arise.
1 - Did said DM go overboard?
2 - How should CR be adjudicated when the monster has suddenly been made (thru armor) 25-40% harder to hit??
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said DM got spiteful. It seems kind of arbitrary to give kobolds all of that just to prove that kobolds aren't a challenge. By all rules, he was justified in saying that they are weak (although kobold cleaver will come in and disagree) because they are something that a group of low-level PC's can handle. You should make them use traps and such, rather than heavy armor. Use what make sense in the normal tactics they use, just make it harder.
EDIT: and, The DM needs to watch less 300
There's no need to give them equipment. I reccomend making them use smart tactics, and give some of them class levels. Remind the players at every opportunity that the kobolds are the ones making the traps that the party is having so much trouble with.
Go kobolds!!!
said DM got spiteful. It seems kind of arbitrary to give kobolds all of that just to prove that kobolds aren't a challenge. By all rules, he was justified in saying that they are weak (although kobold cleaver will come in and disagree)...
You are right there. Prepare to be punished.
The DMG2 had a lot of 'low CR' traps which seem appropriate for kobolds, small pits... with spikes in them, that damage your feet; blinding powder (and then an ambush!); stuff like that.
Just to point out: breastplates give +5 AC, not +3, but I can't really see a CR 1/3 to 1/4 kobold having the resources to purchase (or even make) an appropriately-sized suit of medium armour, plus shields etc... it seems like your GM went a little overboard in believability, not rules.
Said DM did, however, manage to leave out the Kobold warleader - a 3rd-lvl Dragonwrought Dragonfire Adept Kobold...with wings...
And yer right. In retrospect, there should have been a lot more use of overturned tables for a +4 Cover bonus for archers, tanglefoot bags thrown, and so on. I'l- erm, perhaps that DM should save Phalanx Fighting for Goblins, instead.
ETA - the "breastplate +3 bonus" was referring to the fact that as written, they get a +2 from leather armor, so giving them breastplate raised their AC another 3 points.
said DM got spiteful. It seems kind of arbitrary to give kobolds all of that just to prove that kobolds aren't a challenge. By all rules, he was justified in saying that they are weak (although kobold cleaver will come in and disagree) because they are something that a group of low-level PC's can handle. You should make them use traps and such, rather than heavy armor. Use what make sense in the normal tactics they use, just make it harder.
EDIT: and, The DM needs to watch less 300
I (respectfully) disagree completely. This is generally the kind of kobold I've faced throughout my history, and this is frequently how I play kobolds (and other smaller monsters) -- give them some equipment and a little organization, and some top notch training and tactics and show the players what they are capable of.
The DM is under no obligation to only present monsters as they appear in their MM entry blocks, or carefully construct their encounters so that the players won't be overwhelmed or caught off guard.
Properly run kobolds shouldn't even appear until the entire party is poisoned, entagled, filled with arrows, and at the bottom of a fourty-foot-deep pit filled with spikes and filling with water (or maybe acid). And when the kobolds do appear they'll outnumber the PCs by at least 3 to 1.
I (respectfully) disagree completely. This is generally the kind of kobold I've faced throughout my history, and this is frequently how I play kobolds (and other smaller monsters) -- give them some equipment and a little organization, and some top notch training and tactics and show the players what they are capable of.The DM is under no obligation to only present monsters as they appear in their MM entry blocks, or carefully construct their encounters so that the players won't be overwhelmed or caught off guard.
I'm a huge kobold fan myself but loading them down with equipment strikes me as out of character - its not really be true to their nature. I mean if you have a whole kobold city (read Firetop Mountain) then they might be able to scavenge together this kind of equipment for one ambush but its not going to be how most of them are armed.
I'd stick to harassing tactics, lots of traps, have them flee to draw PCs into kill zones that dump swarms of bugs on them or drop them in pits. Give them a couple of rangers and have the kobolds back track the PCs so that they can make tasty meat snacks out of the players horses and beasts of burden. If you want to give them equipment something like alchemists fire and poisoned javelins strikes me as appropreate.
But kobolds in heavy armour strikes me as something thats really only for special occasions or kobolds with class levels, if their weighed down by heavy armour how are they supposed to run away?
There are a lot of basic humanoid monsters in the books and I think its best if on tries to stick to the various themes of the monsters otherwise they all loose their distinctive quirks and thats no fun. So well armoured and using Phalanx Fighting makes more sense with maybe Orcs and definitely Hobgoblins, whose schtick is, traditionally anyway, highly regimented combat styles.
Are you kidding? I'd have a 20 ft-wide hallway with two rows of the phalanxed kobolds marching in formation towards the PCs.
Then, when the party is focussed on the "special" kobolds, have the pack of rogues that snuck behind them pepper them with poisoned crossbow bolts (carrion crawler brain juice preferredly).
"Just because he's big and shiny doesn't mean his your biggest threat..."
One of the better presentations of kobold tactics I can recall was in the Return to Keep on the Borderlands.
Tripwires, some of which were traps, some of which were obvious and meant to distract people so they'd fall into other traps. A big freakin' paper mache Boulder rolling down the hallway to "crush" people, scaring them into leaping into the side corridor (setting off the trap there). Good stuff!
It seems that the DM also has all the wrong ideas of what justifies a "difficult" encounter. Armor alone does not an encounter make. As has already been pointed out, kobolds KNOW they are physically weak, and therefore they compensate by resorting to every underhanded trick in the book. The correct answer to the 14 year old would have been a simple pit trap filled with scorpions, followed by a hail of poisoned crossbolts shooting down at him. Ending with the DM saying "You're right. Kobolds aren't tough. But they are smarter than you."
One of the better presentations of kobold tactics I can recall was in the Return to Keep on the Borderlands.
Tripwires, some of which were traps, some of which were obvious and meant to distract people so they'd fall into other traps. A big freakin' paper mache Boulder rolling down the hallway to "crush" people, scaring them into leaping into the side corridor (setting off the trap there). Good stuff!
Dear gods, I am going to HAVE to use this now!
I'm a huge kobold fan myself but loading them down with equipment strikes me as out of character - its not really be true to their nature. I mean if you have a whole kobold city (read Firetop Mountain) then they might be able to scavenge together this kind of equipment for one ambush but its not going to be how most of them are armed.
I'd stick to harassing tactics, lots of traps, have them flee to draw PCs into kill zones that dump swarms of bugs on them or drop them in pits. Give them a couple of rangers and have the kobolds back track the PCs so that they can make tasty meat snacks out of the players horses and beasts of burden. If you want to give them equipment something like alchemists fire and poisoned javelins strikes me as appropreate.
But kobolds in heavy armour strikes me as something thats really only for special occasions or kobolds with class levels, if their weighed down by heavy armour how are they supposed to run away?
That's a fair point. And even when overequipped like that, kobolds should still be all about traps, harrassing tactics and ambushes.
However, the single most memorable encounter from one of my old playing groups was when we went after a nest of kobolds that had been organized and equipped by a BBEG. A wizard, if I recall correctly. Most of the encounters were trap/ambush situations, but it also included several attacks from the kobold heavy armor/pike and shield wall division. These were typically ambush style as well, usually when we were within a hallway or some other portion of the warren that gave the shield wall the advantage. At least one time, they were also the distraction for the real ambush. It was almost a TPK. When we told the story at taverns later, we would replace every instance of the word "kobold" with the word "ogre," so our barely surviving seemed more reasonable to listeners.
I guess that encounter stood out so much in my mind that I don't consider the occasional group of kobolds equiped with heay armor and shield wall tactics to be out of character or not playing fair for the DM. Personally, I don't think anything (except actual arbitrariness) to be not playing fair for the DM, but that may be because I am a DM.
Sure, entire enclave of kobolds with armor, shields and heavy weapons would be out of character, unless you were changing the nature of kobolds on your game world completely. But throwing one single instance of well armed kobolds at your players remains (in my book) neither petty nor out of bounds.
I guess my main point is that players should never ever take things for granted or make assuptions about any encounter, especially assumptions based on MM entries, and any DM that allows their players to make those assuptions is (in my book) being pretty lazy, and not doing very much to give their players a good time.
If every (or really any) encounter is just going to be lifted straight from the MM, why does the DM even need to be there? Believe me, I understand about not having prep time, but some changes (equipment) are relatively easy and painless, and surely you're putting some thought and prep time into your game.
It seems that the DM also has all the wrong ideas of what justifies a "difficult" encounter. Armor alone does not an encounter make. As has already been pointed out, kobolds KNOW they are physically weak, and therefore they compensate by resorting to every underhanded trick in the book. The correct answer to the 14 year old would have been a simple pit trap filled with scorpions, followed by a hail of poisoned crossbolts shooting down at him. Ending with the DM saying "You're right. Kobolds aren't tough. But they are smarter than you."
Listen to him! Fear us!
Listen to him! Fear us!
I do, KC. I do. And several groups of my players do too.
Oh, By the way
I'm just sayin'...
Along these line have you looked at the goblin? A small creature with 30 foot movement, a bonus to Dex, no penalty co Con. If a goblin were equipped like an elf in the Monster Manual the elf eats it every time. The dwarf doesn't fare to well either.
And to really put the fear of the Gods into a player you should have him run up against smurfs! Good looking, diminutive and with unbridled optimism and don't forget they are blue! (blue monsters are always tougher)
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Across Europe, medieval miners believed in underground spirits. The kobold filled this role in German folklore [snip] Stories of subterranean kobolds were common in Germany by the 16th century. Superstitions miners believed the creatures to be expert miners and metalworkers who could be heard constantly drilling, hammering, and shoveling. Some stories claim that the kobolds live in the rock, just as human beings live in the air.[39]
[snip] One favoured kobold prank was to fool miners into taking worthless ore. For example, 16th-century miners sometimes encountered what looked to be rich veins of copper or silver, but which, when smelted, proved to be little more than a pollutant and could even be poisonous. These ores caused a burning sensation to those who handled them. [snip] Miners called these ores cobalt after the creatures from whom they were thought to come. In 1735, Swedish chemist Georg Brandt isolated a substance from such ores and named it cobalt rex. In 1780, scientists showed that this was in fact a new element, which they named cobalt.
Based on this sort of Kobold, the little guys could be masterful miners and metalsmiths, quite capable of forging their own armor and weaponry, from a 'poisonous' metal that is cobalt-blued in color and causes weakness in those they pepper with their nasty darts, javelins and spears. The Palladium fantasy game uses a type of Kobold more like these, describing the Kobolds of that setting as being the second-best craftsmen in the world, after the Dwarves (with some arguments about that). These sorts of Kobolds could even serve as the weaponsmiths of the evil 'humanoid' races, being much like the Dwarves are for the 'demihuman' races, only serving Orcs, Goblins, Hobgoblins (their best customers, one would think) and Bugbears.
Or hey, they could be bog-standard D&D Kobolds, subjugated and used as shock troops by a small family of Duergar exiles, who have worked to outfit them and keep their tribe of Kobold bantha fodder living in caves between themselves and the outside world, which they want none of.
As a matter of fact, cobalt is named after the cave-dwelling fey.
And to really put the fear of the Gods into a player you should have him run up against smurfs! Good looking, diminutive and with unbridled optimism and don't forget they are blue! (blue monsters are always tougher)
You mean incarnum gnomes?
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When taking the offensive, kobolds prefer ranged weapons, delaying melee combat indefinitely if possible. Most kobold warriors are able slingers; others specialize in hit-and-run tactics with light crossbows. Only strong kobolds use shortbows.
Kobolds like to improvise traps on the battlefield. A popular tactic is to create a shallow moat of pitch behind the first few lines of warriors, wait until the enemy draws close, and then suddenly fall back, igniting the moat and turning it into a wall of fire. Kobolds then shoot through the flames at short range. The enemy must either drive through the flames and face ranged attacks at the same time or fall back, allowing the kobolds to maintain the battle from a distance.
When it comes to melee, kobolds are trained to use reach weapons, which keeps a healthy space between them and their opponents. Once armies are within melee range of each other, kobolds commonly rely on spears, either
charging with the weapons outstretched or setting them into the ground to receive a charging enemy. When this defensive posture fails, kobolds simply push forward from behind, forcing wave upon wave of spearwielding warriors against the enemy.
Specialized melee combatants are rare among kobolds, but they’re easily distinguished by the chitin armor (see page 121) they wear. Particularly strong and brave kobolds become dire weasel riders. These few form the light cavalry in a kobold army.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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I find the "military genius" kobolds to be among the lamest of D&D's cliches. Kobolds are weak, cowardly critters. They are not the Che. Hit and run tactics are find, but the type of tactical omniscience that they get as DM's pets is overused and tired.
Why is it that the kobolds always know where the party is, and the party never knows where they are? Kobolds suck at Listen, Move Silent, AND Spot, and aren't that great at Hide.
Sorry for the rant, but "deadly kobolds" have bored me since the Tucker days.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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A popular tactic is to create a shallow moat of pitch behind the first few lines of warriors, wait until the enemy draws close, and then suddenly fall back, igniting the moat and turning it into a wall of fire. Kobolds then shoot through the flames at short range. The enemy must either drive through the flames and face ranged attacks at the same time or fall back, allowing the kobolds to maintain the battle from a distance.
Got to ask, in what world of tactics is the party returning fire with their own missile weapons not an option? Give a false choice, and the moat of fire SEEMS like a good tactic. The kobolds are going to be trading small-size missile fire with foes that are likely of medium size.
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It's because they are weak and cowardly that they come up with so many traps. Besides, where would we be without cliches? Dwarves would be graceful and elegant, Elves would be gruff and mine all day, and halflings would be raging at everyone that called them short, chopping them to bits with their superior strength.
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A popular tactic is to create a shallow moat of pitch behind the first few lines of warriors, wait until the enemy draws close, and then suddenly fall back, igniting the moat and turning it into a wall of fire. Kobolds then shoot through the flames at short range. The enemy must either drive through the flames and face ranged attacks at the same time or fall back, allowing the kobolds to maintain the battle from a distance.Got to ask, in what world of tactics is the party returning fire with their own missile weapons not an option? Give a false choice, and the moat of fire SEEMS like a good tactic. The kobolds are going to be trading small-size missile fire with foes that are likely of medium size.
not to mention the staggering amount of kobolds there would have to be for them to have the courage to stay and fight...
I find the "military genius" kobolds to be among the lamest of D&D's cliches. Kobolds are weak, cowardly critters. They are not the Che. Hit and run tactics are find, but the type of tactical omniscience that they get as DM's pets is overused and tired.
Why is it that the kobolds always know where the party is, and the party never knows where they are? Kobolds suck at Listen, Move Silent, AND Spot, and aren't that great at Hide.
Sorry for the rant, but "deadly kobolds" have bored me since the Tucker days.
But see that is the point. It isn't that they are military geniuses. They are just paranoid little monsters that trap everything and its brother to make sure nobody gets too close. It's not that the kobolds know where the party is, just that they assume the enemy is everywhere and trap accordingly!
It's because they are weak and cowardly that they come up with so many traps. Besides, where would we be without cliches? Dwarves would be graceful and elegant, Elves would be gruff and mine all day, and halflings would be raging at everyone that called them short, chopping them to bits with their superior strength.
Actually, if Belkar is anything to go by, halflings do that all the time.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Think about it: For a group of 4 PC's, there would have to be at least 12 kobolds, given the 3:1 ratio, maybe more. even 12 small crossbows are better than 4 medium longbows
Not really, with one hit killing a kobold, and happening a lot more often than 3-5 shots to take down a PC. The kobolds lose their fire power a lot faster than the party does, especially since the party will have a cleric.
As for traps: kobolds don't actually have that impressive of trap-making skills, and they don't have unlimited gold. Trapping "everywherE" with quality traps shouldn't be an option.
A popular tactic is to create a shallow moat of pitch behind the first few lines of warriors, wait until the enemy draws close, and then suddenly fall back, igniting the moat and turning it into a wall of fire. Kobolds then shoot through the flames at short range. The enemy must either drive through the flames and face ranged attacks at the same time or fall back, allowing the kobolds to maintain the battle from a distance.Got to ask, in what world of tactics is the party returning fire with their own missile weapons not an option? Give a false choice, and the moat of fire SEEMS like a good tactic. The kobolds are going to be trading small-size missile fire with foes that are likely of medium size.
One word: Good Dexterity. Okay, that's two words, but you get my point. Kobolds are not formidable alone. But you try facing 20 kobolds from over a moat of burning oil, and you'll be a bit less bold.
Kobolds will not attack unless they have very good odds of winning. And remember: Just because a kobold is a 1st level warrior doesn't mean he can't escape. He isn't a recurring villain now. You underestimate him, he will be.
Think about it: For a group of 4 PC's, there would have to be at least 12 kobolds, given the 3:1 ratio, maybe more. even 12 small crossbows are better than 4 medium longbowsNot really, with one hit killing a kobold, and happening a lot more often than 3-5 shots to take down a PC. The kobolds lose their fire power a lot faster than the party does, especially since the party will have a cleric.
As for traps: kobolds don't actually have that impressive of trap-making skills, and they don't have unlimited gold. Trapping "everywherE" with quality traps shouldn't be an option.
Hey, what made the elves of Lothlorien tough? Class levels, and good traps and surroundings. They had Galadriel, they had the river, they had rangers, they had snares and numbers. Look at the entry at the MM. Not so impressive without those things.
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Think about it: For a group of 4 PC's, there would have to be at least 12 kobolds, given the 3:1 ratio, maybe more. even 12 small crossbows are better than 4 medium longbowsNot really, with one hit killing a kobold, and happening a lot more often than 3-5 shots to take down a PC. The kobolds lose their fire power a lot faster than the party does, especially since the party will have a cleric.
As for traps: kobolds don't actually have that impressive of trap-making skills, and they don't have unlimited gold. Trapping "everywherE" with quality traps shouldn't be an option.
being renowned master miners, they very well could have unlimited gold. Plus, they don't even have to be all that good. They could concentrate their fire, maybe taking down the cleric. Plus, the party doesn't always have a cleric, unless you go by the standard "every party needs a sneak, tank, caster, and healer", which from my experience is very rarely true.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Profession: miner +2, on average, is a renowned master miner, and grants you unlimited gold? Why does the world have farmers, if any commoner can spend four skill points and get unlimited gold even faster than the kobolds? :)
On the "3:1" thing: a level 1 party probably isn't facing more than 8 kobolds in a typical fight, by the EL guidelines (that's EL 2 vs. APL 1).
Regarding clerics: sub in any healer for a cleric. I've almost never seen a group with NO ability to heal in a home campaign, and only rarely in living campaigns.
Regarding tactics: tactics are fine. Portraying kobolds as master warriors (and tactical mastery is party of mastering warfare) is what gets on my nerves. Their hit-and-run tactics shouldn't be all that inspired, they're simply not that bright OR organized.
I've seen dozens of "my kobolds are uber" articles and posts over the years, and I'm just venting my boredom with this particular gamer meme.
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Profession: miner +2, on average, is a renowned master miner, and grants you unlimited gold? Why does the world have farmers, if any commoner can spend four skill points and get unlimited gold even faster than the kobolds? :)
On the "3:1" thing: a level 1 party probably isn't facing more than 8 kobolds in a typical fight, by the EL guidelines (that's EL 2 vs. APL 1).
Regarding clerics: sub in any healer for a cleric. I've almost never seen a group with NO ability to heal in a home campaign, and only rarely in living campaigns.
As a society, not a single kobold. That's the average kobold, including warriors. The miners are experts (Races of the dragon), and highly regimented. Also, traps are seen as an art form to them, much as elves with bows and dwarves with anything stone or metal. Kobolds often become sorcerers.
In contrast to most humanoid cultures, kobold sorcerers are not left to discover their abilities through trial and error. Kobolds with a talent for sorcery are guided through the awakening of their abilities and directed toward specific types of magic. Entering into this calling is a deeply reverential act, surrounded with more ceremony than any other part of kobold culture. A kobold sorcerer is required to make lifetime vows to the craft of sorcery, not unlike swearing into the priesthood.
Kobolds instructed by tribal sorcerers are directed into one of four areas of magic—augmenting, offensive, pragmatic, or preemptive. One out of every four sorcerers studies augmenting magic, designed to shore up kobold weaknesses and give them greater stealth. Spells such as enlarge person, bull’s strength, and haste are common choices for the augmenting sorcerer. Three out of every four sorcerers become offensive magicians, focusing on damaging targets from far away, using spells such as magic missile, flaming sphere, and fireball.
Two out of every three offensive
sorcerers become pragmatic arcane casters, concentrating on every day work and mining in particular, focusing their efforts on effects such as fabricate, locate object, stone shape, and transmute rock to mud. One out of every two augmenting sorcerers is eventually directed toward preemptive magic, looking for impending threats to the tribe with spells such as arcane eye, detect scrying, and scrying.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I like this curmudgeoning Russ brings to the topic. I hadn't considered how much the "how deadly can the DM make kobolds" challenge had moved so far into the land of cliche and not in the spirit of the creature's actual abilities and skills.
In regards to the original post though, the DMG/MM set forth the amount of equipment an NPC is supposed to have. Once you increase that equipment by a certain amount, the CR increases as well. As proof, take the exercise to the most absurd levels. Run a party of 2nd level characters against 10 kobolds, each with a ring of three wishes. If kobolds are sporting 2x or 3x their typical treasure, that should increase their CR just as if they were built with all 18s or a 52 point buy.
...Regarding tactics: tactics are fine. Portraying kobolds as master warriors (and tactical mastery is party of mastering warfare) is what gets on my nerves. Their hit-and-run tactics shouldn't be all that inspired, they're simply not that bright OR organized...
*Grumbles*
Kobolds have no penalty to Intelligence, and I have no idea how the rumor that 'kobolds aren't very organized' got started.|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Kobolds are as bright as any human, and they actually are much, much more organized.
Let's address "much, much more organized" in some fashion other than references to Races of the Dragon, which I rank with the old "Complete Book of Elves" in terms of worthlessness - it is basically one of those books that tries to build up its creatures as being the best at everything, and as such it's not a sourcebook I'll ever use. I prefer a balanced, realistic take on creatures. Moving kobolds from spiked pits, crossbow tripwires and dropping scorpions into "traps as a work of art" is more of leap than the original source material justifies.
When kobolds are found in great cities like the humans and dwarves, I'll buy "much, much" more organized. But in their description, I don't see fantastic organization. I see a lawful alignment, so a tendency towards regiment and organization, but not any comments about leadership or organization like we see (for example) under the hobgoblin and sahuagin entries.
For humans and dwarves, we have the organizational evidence of large armies, great cities, and civilizations.
Elves tend to not live in large groups, so I'm leaving them out, nothing against them.
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Well, we've now got a race that is as intelligent as humans, and more Lawful by nature referred to as 'not that bright or organized' and the assertion that giving them armor is tantamount to handing out Rings of Wishes.
Stick a fork in this thread, the crazy hyperbole has begun, and all further discussion will involve straw men tilting at windmills, or some other horribly mixed metaphor...
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Kobolds have no penalty to Intelligence, and I have no idea how the rumor that 'kobolds aren't very organized' got started.
Yes, no smarter than humans, so they aren't likely to use tactics substantially more clever than the typical human group. A human group that demonstrates mastery of guerilla warfare would be exceptional, not typical. As my original rant pointed out, I'm sick of the cliche of making ALL kobolds elite commandos. It was boring even when first presented in the Tucker's Kobold editorial.
The "not that organized" is different than "not very". The entry of kobolds in the MM offers no support for a highly regimented, organized kobold society beyond their alignment. It DOES offer that support for other lawful evil humanoids (and monstrous humanoids) like hobgoblins and sahuagin. So - not that organized. They aren't an organized military society of elite warriors - we have those races already, and kobolds don't need to be shoe-horned into it.
The MM supports a race of cowards that digs pits and drops vermin on their foes as being the typical kobold, not a race of master miners with unlimited wealth and every inch of their lair trapped with brilliant devices. Let's try and get some monsters back to actually being what they are in the MM.
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Kobolds are as bright as any human, and they actually are much, much more organized.Let's address "much, much more organized" in some fashion other than references to Races of the Dragon, which I rank with the old "Complete Book of Elves" in terms of worthlessness - it is basically one of those books that tries to build up its creatures as being the best at everything, and as such it's not a sourcebook I'll ever use. I prefer a balanced, realistic take on creatures. Moving kobolds from spiked pits, crossbow tripwires and dropping scorpions into "traps as a work of art" is more of leap than the original source material justifies.
When kobolds are found in great cities like the humans and dwarves, I'll buy "much, much" more organized. But in their description, I don't see fantastic organization. I see a lawful alignment, so a tendency towards regiment and organization, but not any comments about leadership or organization like we see (for example) under the hobgoblin and sahuagin entries.
For humans and dwarves, we have the organizational evidence of large armies, great cities, and civilizations.
Elves tend to not live in large groups, so I'm leaving them out, nothing against them.
You're just leaving it out because it contradicts your point. When you DM, you can make kobolds however you want, but the fact stands that it's a WoTC book that states things about the D&D game. You're stating your opinions, I'm referencing written documents. Your argument seems to have holes....
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Well, we've now got a race that is as intelligent as humans, and more Lawful by nature referred to as 'not that bright or organized' and the assertion that giving them armor is tantamount to handing out Rings of Wishes.
You'd refer to human society as being bright? You're more generous than I am. Your typical group of human warrior 1s is portrayed as either green recruits or buffoons, and they're more suited for military combat than a kobold warrior 1.
If they're going to use brilliant commando tactics, I want to see the typical kobold being SMARTER than a human, not as smart. Spend some of that non-elite array on Int to reflect a canny foe.
Really annoys me when critters are smarter than their Int score justifies - and the Wis of a typical kobold means they're foolish on top of being "not that bright" (average isn't bright).
One of the better presentations of kobold tactics I can recall was in the Return to Keep on the Borderlands.
Tripwires, some of which were traps, some of which were obvious and meant to distract people so they'd fall into other traps. A big freakin' paper mache Boulder rolling down the hallway to "crush" people, scaring them into leaping into the side corridor (setting off the trap there). Good stuff!
That was a good little kobold subsection I agree. When I upgraded this to 3.5 I filled the Paper Mache ball with a wasp swarm...unfortunatly for my kobolds the players assaulted this area through the secret door from below, during the fight one of the players shoved the 'boulder' at a kobold - where it promtly exploded, the players and most of the kobolds then fled as fast as they could as the wasp swarm killed everything in sight.
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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I'm leaving out Races of the Dragon because I don't own it, won't ever buy it, and I'm not going to steal a download. I've read through it, and consider it junk, one of the worst of the 3rd edition books. The fact that it apparently contradicts the MM description of kobolds in multiple places does not come as a shock to me, as that's part of why I rejected buying it in the first place.
I don't consider Dragon Mountain as evidence that core kobolds are superheroic either - rather, it is an example of the annoying tendency to MAKE them superheroic.
You're not going to be able to use a WotC supplement that potrays kobolds in the way I detest to convince me I shouldn't be bothered by how they are portrayed - if they were never presented as masters of traps, guerilla warfare, etc, I'd likely not be annoyed by that sort of potrayal.
That was a good little kobold subsection I agree. When I upgraded this to 3.5 I filled the Paper Mache ball with a wasp swarm...unfortunatly for my kobolds the players assaulted this area through the secret door from below, during the fight one of the players shoved the 'boulder' at a kobold - where it promtly exploded, the players and most of the kobolds then fled as fast as they could as the wasp swarm killed everything in sight.One of the better presentations of kobold tactics I can recall was in the Return to Keep on the Borderlands.
Tripwires, some of which were traps, some of which were obvious and meant to distract people so they'd fall into other traps. A big freakin' paper mache Boulder rolling down the hallway to "crush" people, scaring them into leaping into the side corridor (setting off the trap there). Good stuff!
heh heh heh...
Anyways, perhaps kobolds aren't brighter than humans, but at least can we lose the 'kobolds aren't very bright' idea?|
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Well, we've now got a race that is as intelligent as humans, and more Lawful by nature referred to as 'not that bright or organized' and the assertion that giving them armor is tantamount to handing out Rings of Wishes.
Stick a fork in this thread, the crazy hyperbole has begun, and all further discussion will involve straw men tilting at windmills, or some other horribly mixed metaphor...
Plus poor reading comprehension.
I didn't say giving them armor is tantamount to handing out rings of wishes. I said that equipment factors into CR and even stated that an absurd example would be having kobolds with rings of wishes.
I'm leaving out Races of the Dragon because I don't own it, won't ever buy it, and I'm not going to steal a download. I've read through it, and consider it junk, one of the worst of the 3rd edition books. The fact that it apparently contradicts the MM description of kobolds in multiple places does not come as a shock to me, as that's part of why I rejected buying it in the first place.
I don't consider Dragon Mountain as evidence that core kobolds are superheroic either - rather, it is an example of the annoying tendency to MAKE them superheroic.
You're not going to be able to use a WotC supplement that potrays kobolds in the way I detest to convince me I shouldn't be bothered by how they are portrayed - if they were never presented as masters of traps, guerilla warfare, etc, I'd likely not be annoyed by that sort of potrayal.
You seem to have ignored my point about Lothlorien. By your own logic, why do we bother making elves use good tactics?
Besides that elves are the favorite due to a certain Orlando Bloom.